[Blue Dragon]

I put together a list of questions that seem to come up frequently among people who are new to the concept of a Cigar Pass. Since this site is really focused around this concept, I thought I would pose these questions to several members who have been through several passes and let them share their insights with you. I hope you find it helpful and thought provoking. It should give some insight as to why we do things the way we do around here.

I put these out to several members for a couple reasons. I am guessing that you will start to see common elements between responses, but that each person might look at each question a little bit differently. One thing I have come to find is that there is no one right answer; it isn't just black and white, but there is a commonality between responses. We are a community of members learning, helping, sharing, watching out for each other, and smoking cigars of course.

Most people have come back and answered the questions, some are still blank and some apparently have been forgotten. However, I open this up to the rest of CP to add his/her own personal insight into these questions, or to ask a question of your own that might be plaguing you about Cigar Passes.

Long Ashes to You All!
- C

*edit: Thanks Ginseng, emodx, Matt R., NorCalCigarLover, Allofus123, Devin Cole, cohibasurfer, and Moki ... hopefully the rest will come back and finish their answers soon. Thanks for making CP great!

PS. I have already received several PMs that this thread is helpful and appreciated .. so no need to post the "cool thread" comments here.

This post has been edited by Blue Dragon: 04 December 2007 - 04:54 PM

[Ginseng]

Cigar Pass FAQ Q: & A:

1. What are your thoughts on the equality of a trade (one for one)? Do you ever put in more than what the cigar is worth or more than just one cigar? What about a host bag and what is it?
On the question of equality of a given trade, I used to believe that the expectation was that you always PUT in a stick the value of which is at least as great as that which you TAKE. In fact, it seems that there are some who still believe that and that's fine. It's really just a different perspective with different expectations. I now subscribe to the philosophy of PUT equals TAKE and I do so primarily due to the rationales presented in this thread. Steve*R put it simply and eloquently and I buy it.

In actuality, as a practical matter, it is impossible to do an exact to the penny match. I recently wrapped up participation in three passes and it was a bitch making matches within even a $0.25 window. And so we've grappled with various ways to introduce a little wiggle room so that the EQUALs ideal can be met in spirit while not making value matching such an onerous task. A pass should be fun and it might be less fun if a participant feels he can't readily find matches for cigars he's interested in.

Yes, I do sometimes PUT cigars of greater value. I try to do so more often than I PUT cigars of lesser value. Wiggle room comes at the level of the individual cigar transaction and also at the level of the total set of transactions. In other words, if you're over $0.25 on each of three PUTS, then on your other three PUTs might be under by $0.25 so that the variance on a per stick basis is minimal AND the overall transaction net is as close to ZERO as possible. Typically, I feel better about my P-T set if the net is actually slightly on the POSITIVE side.

I never put in two sticks for one, unless the pass rules allow it and the PUT pair is a novelty. For example, a pair consisting of a 1970 and 2006 Montecristo No.4.

I tend not to add to the host bag. When I want to express my regard and gratitude for being allowed to participate, I contact/bomb the host directly, personally. I find that for me, this carries a lot more goodwill than simply an extra sack of anonymous sticks.

2. When deciding what cigars to put into a pass, what are some of the factors of the cigar's condition that you check before putting it into a pass?
I always check the entire cigar for splits or cracks. I also check the bunch for tightness. Although some feel that the firmness of a stick cannot give a true indication of potential draw characteristics, I've encountered enough to suspect certain hard-feeling sticks of tightness of draw. There's nothing worse than trading for a stick and then finding out the sucker won't draw.

I always, always select the best cigar from my box to PUT into a pass. I can smoke some pretty ugly, mangled cigars but it's the classy thing to do to put your best stick forward. Cigars of recent vintage should be flawless. Vintage cigars, however, may show up to 1/4 cracks or splits at the foot. Typically, through the wrapper is fine. A split that penetrates into the binder, less so.

3. How do you determine a cigar's value when attempting to trade for the cigar in a pass? How do you determine your own cigar's value? What are your thoughts on MSRP? What are your thoughts on Going Market Value?
When I need to compare values, I do it for a given PUT and TAKE pair according to a single pricing source. So for example, I might want an Ashton VSG Tres Mystique and wonder if a San Cristobal Clasico would be a good value match. To check this pair, I'd go to any online retailer who carried both cigars and compare their pricing. In this case, Holt's carries both cigars and I see that they are both listed as $8.00 retail. And so this P/T pair would be fair and acceptable.

Now, if in the same pass I wanted to take a Graycliff G2 Torpedo and put an AVO Domaine No. 30, I couldn't use Holt's because although they carry the AVO, they do not carry the Graycliff. If I used Holt's for the AVO price and another site for the Graycliff, then the basis for comparing the prices would not necessarily be equivalent. Fairness demands that the pricing basis be identical or damned close to it and so a single source for a given pair is always the ideal case. Luckily, Corona Cigar Company carries both lines. I see that they are both about $6.20 each and so this would be another greenlighted P/T pair.

This type of price matching applies no matter the country of origin of the cigar.

As for MSRP being used for the price match, I consider this to be a reasonable alternative to single-source price comparison. The reason is that MSRP is insensitive to the point of purchase just like mail order.

I'm not sure what "going market value" means and thus cannot comment on its suitability. If it means using brick and mortar pricing, then I don't recommend it. The main reason being regional variations in pricing due primarily to state and/or city taxes. I might pay $10 for a Padron 2000 in New York City but back home in Delaware, they go for $3.25 a piece. If I were allowed to put that NYC P2K and take a Padilla Miami 8/11 Robusto (a $10 by mail order cigar) then I'd be reaping a $6.75 exchange "profit" and that would be unfair.

4. How do you factor in rarity, or even determine a cigar's rarity? Can rarity be given a monetary amount?
Rarity is the one case where I refer strictly to market values. I cannot say as I've seen enough to know that any given hard to find or rare cigar has a documented history of its value. I believe that aside from recent precedent, the only practical way to assign a premium based on rarity is to take it one case at a time at the time it comes up. So, I would not say there is a fixed dollar value that can be applied fairly in the majority of cases.

5. How do you factor in the age of a cigar into a trade? Is this something that should be considered for domestics as well as ISOMs? Can age be given a monetary amount?
I would not consider any Habanos younger than 3-4 years to have any significant additional age-premium and zero if less than 3. Even so, there are simply too many changes and variations across marcas and vintages to assign a given multiplier for number of years. For example, 1999-2001 are considered box dates with a high ratio of quality problems. However, some cigars from this period are stellar. Also, there is the sense with Cubans moreso than with non-Cubans that overall vintage years vary in quality much as with wines.

For non-Cubans, if the cigar is a boutique, top flight, or hard to find cigar and it has more than a few years on it, I'd start giving it a bit of a bump. There is the sense that folks don't typically age NC's and that there is nothing spectacular about regular production cigars with less than say 10 years of age. At least that's a bias that I have. There simply aren't enough accounts out there to suggest whether aged NC's should be regarded as special in the sense that Cubans are.

6. As a cigar pass continues, sometimes the value of some of the sticks increase. Let's say someone traded for stick #3, a $5 stick, and put in stick #22, an $8 stick. If a passer down the line wanted to trade for stick #22, could s/he trade it for a $5 stick? Why or why not?
Absolutely not. Each trade is on a stick for stick basis in terms of value. There should not be any consideration for the lineage that led up to the TAKE you for which you wish to transact.

7. Trades in passes seem to be kept to a stricter standard than many trades I have done or heard about on the board. Why is this?
Simply, because it is a communal activity and furthermore, it is the activity upon which this forum was founded. You answer to the group of passers. You represent yourself to the group. And also, it is a visible activity that, by virtue of the trade thread, is a record of the times, the values, the approach to passing, and the personalities and relationships as a snapshot in time. It is of historical significance.

8. Why is it recommended that you participate in a few passes before considering hosting a pass yourself? Isn't the host of the pass the one risking his/her cigars?
I think there are several reasons to participate first before considering hosting one yourself. First, when you participate in passes, you get a feel for the flow of events from making picks to approvals to sending out the box and notifications. In order for passes to run smoothly, it's best to have some idea of what you're supposed to do and how your actions relate to those that came before and after you. Another important reason to participate first is to build an understanding of and appreciation for error or mistake handling. Not all passes go smoothly from beginning to end and the various issues that pop up can be handled better if you've seen it before.

Even though the host is risking his cigars, when you have players invested, the pass sort of become communal property in the sense that we are all responsible to make sure that the cigars pass safely to one another. In effect, the cigars belong to everyone and no one until they are picked.

9. What are your thoughts on trading gifted cigars in a pass?
Conceptually, I subscribe to the guidelines presented in this thread. I do not consider it dishonorable to trade or gift cigars that have been freely given to you as long as no strings are attached. Of course the determination of quality and provenance must be taken into account. If there is any doubt, it doesn't go in. In a practical sense, however, a pass is a slightly different beast than a bombing or trade. Because it is a communal activity, I feel this raises the rigor beyond what might normally be expected of a one-to-one transaction.

10. It seems that a pass' value increases as it continues. Does it seem like the pass host is profitting from having a pass? Does it happen?
Is the overall value of a pass likely to be greater upon return to the host than when it left. I'd say yes. Unless it was the express intent of the host to "trade up" a bunch of his cigars, then I feel there is no problem. It is simply what will happen. A host should neither expect an increase in value nor should he feel ashamed or uncomfortable that the value of the pass contents are greater upon return.

11. What are your thoughts on the concept of leaving the pass better than you found it? Does that phrase have anything to do with the cigars in the pass?
I think that pass value will either rise by design or naturally as a matter of consequence. If the intentions of the host are to share in the camaraderie and have some fun, then there is no problem. If the primary intention is to upgrade the stash, then it becomes an ethical issue. Time will reveal what those intentions are.

12. What would be your top three guiding principles that any pass participant should keep in mind?
My top three principles are:
1. Read, understand, and abide by the host's rules.

2. Communicate clearly, directly, and in a timely fashion as appropriate to the host and other participants.

3. It is all about having fun and sharing in the brotherhood.

Wilkey

This post has been edited by Ginseng: 04 December 2007 - 05:04 PM

[emodx]

- Place Holder : As Requested

What are your thoughts on the equality of a trade (one for one)? Do you ever put in more than what the cigar is worth or more than just one cigar? What about a host bag and what is it?

I believe in one for one unless stated in the rules. Sometimes you will find otherwise but this is the norm. The reasoning behind this is to keep someone from putting 3 $2.00 cigars for a $6.00 cigar.

Host bags are a way of saying thank you to the host for allowing a passer to play. These are totally optional to contribute to. If you want to pass along something, just toss it in with everything else. If it weighs any more than about 2 cigars, it is best to send it to the host directly. Host bag is strictly off limits for trades. Host bags are not required in any pass, and it is very poor etiquitte to put a host bag in your own pass.

When deciding what cigars to put into a pass, what are some of the factors of the cigar's condition that you check before putting it into a pass?

Kept between %65-%72 RH, no mold, no split foots, no chipped foots, no cracked wrappers. First hand knowledge of where this cigar originated if it is rare or ISOM.

How do you determine a cigar's value when attempting to trade for the cigar in a pass? How do you determine your own cigar's value? What are your thoughts on MSRP? What are your thoughts on Going Market Value?

For value of a cigar, I find the box price for the cigar at the 3 lowest retailers (don't forget shipping and sales tax). I add them together and divide by 3. Then I divide that number by how many cigars are in a box. This gives you fair market value. If you know w/o a doubt the MSRP for the cigar, ad that in as a 4th variable. This will play out in sought after, hard to find, or rare cigars.

How do you factor in rarity, or even determine a cigar's rarity? Can rarity be given a monetary amount?

This my humble opinion, rarity is something that a lot of people will not truly understand. Rarity cannot be given a dollar amount because it is what the market will bear. Be forewarned, if you are going to take a rare cigar, be prepared to be scrutinized. Here is how I rank 'em:

Bundled or Economy - Typically your $1-$2 bundled, trainer, apprentice, mixed filler cigars
Mass Market - Typical $3-$6 cigar. These can be found around the country in just about any cigar store and very easily on the internet. [i]Almost[i/] everything sold at CigarBid, CigarINTL, Holts, or JR's falls into this category.
Mass Market Seasonal's - This falls into the Mass Market category. These are mass market (20,000+) cigars that have a seasonal release. What comes to mind right now are the La Escepcion released by JR's. They are released in large amounts, but each year has a different blend or size, therefor making them slightly more rare.
Boutique - These are more difficult to find. Usually you may only fins a couple of internet retailers that keep these small brands in stock.
Top Shelf - These you can find at a premium on the internet, and at the larger B&M stores. They are more limited in number than the regular line. Examples are Diamond Crown, Padron Anni's, Zino, Graycliff, Opus, VSG.
Super Premium - These are marked up close to %300 on the internet. Release is usually 2-3 times a year and are usually kept under 5000 cigars per line. Examples are Hemi Maddies, Anejo, BTL's, Toast Across America Cigars
Rare - Made once and not made again. Examples CAO Oddessy, Padron Millenium, Special Fuente's, Partagas 150, First releases of Super Premium cigars.

How do you factor in the age of a cigar into a trade? Is this something that should be considered for domestics as well as ISOMs? Can age be given a monetary amount?

If I ran an auction this is how I would figure it out. I would take the original price, compound the yearly rate of inflation
and then add %20 for each year of age. For example, a $5 cigar compounded at %3.5 for 20 years would be $9.95 + $20. Or, you could find the current price online or search Christies auction site for what they went for recently.

As a cigar pass continues, sometimes the value of some of the sticks increase. Let's say someone traded for stick #3, a $5 stick, and put in stick #22, an $8 stick. If a passer down the line wanted to trade for stick #22, could s/he trade it for a $5 stick? Why or why not?

No, 1 for 1 trade. If you take out a $10 cigar you put in a $10 cigar.

Trades in passes seem to be kept to a stricter standard than many trades I have done or heard about on the board. Why is this?

Passes are public and involve multiple people.. If you let the standards slide just once, you are setting precedence for future passes. Trades are private between 2 individuals.

Why is it recommended that you participate in a few passes before considering hosting a pass yourself? Isn't the host of the pass the one risking his/her cigars?

To understand how well ran passes are supposed to work. Yes he is. The pass could get lost, cigars could be damaged in transit, it could be stolen, or a jerk could screw the passer on puts/takes.

What are your thoughts on trading gifted cigars in a pass?

If it is given to you, it is yours to do what you will of it.

It seems that a pass' value increases as it continues. Does it seem like the pass host is profiting from having a pass? Does it happen?

Profits only happen when one person trades or sells cigars received in a pass. Otherwise it is a one for one trade. How can someone profit if put vs takes are equal? If I some an $11 cigar as a put for a $9 cigar, consider it a thank you from your BOTL.

What are your thoughts on the concept of leaving the pass better than you found it? Does that phrase have anything to do with the cigars in the pass?

Leaving the pass better than you found it means:
- Double check the Puts/Takes sheet for errors
- Replace the box if it is damaged
- Add water to the humidifier
- Add baggies if they run low
- Try and take some cigars from the original puts before taking from what comes later
- If you can't do anything from the above, a thank you note is nice.
- Put a slightly better cigar than what you put.

What would be your top three guiding principles that any pass participant should keep in mind?
1. Follow the rules - this should be a no brainer, but you would be surprised
2. Ask if in doubt - the host, other experienced people in the pass, a respected FOG.
3. HAVE FUN!!!

This post has been edited by emodx: 03 June 2007 - 06:50 PM

[Matt R]

Place Holder : As Requested

[NorCalCigarLover]

What are your thoughts on the equality of a trade (one for one)? Do you ever put in more than what the cigar is worth or more than just one cigar? What about a host bag and what is it?
As taken from the Rules that I wrote for the iPass Jazz Pass:

5. Put & Takes (P/T's) should be: a) value for value, b) rarity for rarity, c) NC for NC, d) Premium for Premium and e) ISOM for ISOM. For each P/T combination an acceptable exchange value difference of $0.25 is allowable, the overall net P/T value exchange should be as close to equal as possible.

(To calculate the exchange value of a cigar please use the following vendors in the order given: International Cigars, Famous Smoke Shop, Holt's Cigar Company and JR Cigars. Use of the Cigar Pass reference charts is also acceptable in calculating the exchange value for some of the rarer premium cigars.)

While this rule sounds good it is a bit restrictive especially when your involved in a Pass of real BOTL's. While I generally try to stick to this rule myself, I'll sometimes slip in an extra just because. If a Pass Host has allowed 2:1 trades in the rules then go for it but if it's not in the rules don't assume that it is okay.

I used to enjoy putting a special cigar in the Host Bag, especially if a Pass was well run and creative. I never did like the idea of the Pass Host adding a Host Bag but do feel it's acceptable if a Pass Participant decides to start one along the way and all participants undertand that it is completely voluntary. Better yet if the Host doesn't know anything about it.


When deciding what cigars to put into a pass, what are some of the factors of the cigar's condition that you check before putting it into a pass?
I look for Put's that are in, or at least very near, perfect condition. No tears in the wrapper, no bug holes and not dry. Traveling in a Pass takes its toll on a cigar so it needs to be in perfect condition to survive the rigors of shipping.


How do you determine a cigar's value when attempting to trade for the cigar in a pass? How do you determine your own cigar's value? What are your thoughts on MSRP? What are your thoughts on Going Market Value?
To determine a cigars value, I'll research each cigar I am considering taking to establish an "exchange value", I'll do the same for each of my puts. A cigars rarity, age, origin and market value are all considered when I am determining the exchange value of a cigar.

I feel that using the exchange value of a cigar is a much better way of determining P&T's.


How do you factor in rarity, or even determine a cigar's rarity? Can rarity be given a monetary amount?
The best bet for determining the rarity of a cigar is to really do your research and get to know the cigar you would like to trade for, search is your friend. I know this advice is often times sometimes given as a flippant response but in this instance you as the trader need to fully know what you are asking for. You DO NOT want to come off as if your trying to take advantage of the Pass Host or the Pass Members, not good form and It'll definitely get you in hot water.

When searching CP, focus your search on the Pass Section first. Then, you can see what others have traded before you, there's nothing wrong with duplicating a past trade. Is the cigar popular on the board? is it highly sought after? do group buys or sales fill up quickly? if yes to all or most then it could be a rarer cigar.

Next, search the web for the cigar and ask yourself the same questions, but this time time also look at availability. It it limited production? limited release? special occasion?. If it's sold out or back ordered at "most" places, except where prices are tripled or more, it's probably a highly sought after cigar which could also make it a rarer cigar.

Once you've done your research, you can now determine the "trade value" of the cigar. Starting with MSRP, or acceptable retail value, is a good place to start, now using your research factor in the rarity value. Sorry, I can't give you any hard numbers but you get the idea. Now run your suggested P&T past the Pass Host and Members and see what they think.


How do you factor in the age of a cigar into a trade? Is this something that should be considered for domestics as well as ISOMs? Can age be given a monetary amount?
Aged for Aged, in both ISOM's and premium domestics. I'm sure a monetary amount can be calculated, exactly how is a bit fuzzy and debateable, but I prefer to maintain the P&T Rule and then add in a age variable.


As a cigar pass continues, sometimes the value of some of the sticks increase. Let's say someone traded for stick #3, a $5 stick, and put in stick #22, an $8 stick. If a passer down the line wanted to trade for stick #22, could s/he trade it for a $5 stick? Why or why not?
No. A Cigars P&T history is not used as a factor in determining a cigars trade value.


Trades in passes seem to be kept to a stricter standard than many trades I have done or heard about on the board. Why is this?
In an individual trade the only persons concerned are the two people doing the trade. In a Pass, the Pass Host is reponsible for making sure that the last person has the same opportunity for quality P&T's as the first person. Shipping costs are not cheap, so when I'm hosting a Pass I want each participant to be able to get something special out of a pass and not just have a selection of cigars that he can go get at his local B&M. By maintaining a stricter standard on P&Ts hopefully the quality of the Pass is consistant from the first participant to the last.


Why is it recommended that you participate in a few passes before considering hosting a pass yourself? Isn't the host of the pass the one risking his/her cigars?
Most importantly, so that you as the Host understand the proper packaging of cigars that are going to be on the road for at least 3 months. It isn't dificult to invite participants, collect addresses and then send cigars to the first person. But packing cigars for a 3-4 month journey across the U.S. that will make upwards of 24 stops along the way is very different from sending a cigar bomb to someone. As the Pass Host you are responsible for those cigars making that journey in "perfect" condition, and not just the cigars that you start with but every participants cigars as well.

Participating in a few Passes also allows one to experience the mechanics and evolution of a Pass. Again, it isn't dificult to just send a Pass out and let it run its course, but where's the fun in that? Your participants deserve something much better than that. Ask yourself, why would I want to be in this Pass? In my opinion, a Pass isn't only about the cigars but about the experience as well.


What are your thoughts on trading gifted cigars in a pass?
I do not have an issue with people trading gifted cigars.


It seems that a pass' value increases as it continues. Does it seem like the pass host is profitting from having a pass? Does it happen?
Knowing your intentions before starting a Pass and understanding that the cigars in the Pass are not yours but do belong to the Pass are key to being a good Pass Host. A Pass should not be started in order to gain a profit but should be done for the good of the community, unfortunately there will always be people who are trying to make a profit from others. Hopefully those profiteers will be exposed early in the process.


What are your thoughts on the concept of leaving the pass better than you found it? Does that phrase have anything to do with the cigars in the pass?
Correcting any packing problems, replacing items in the box, or the box, recharge humidity devices, etc..


What would be your top three guiding principles that any pass participant should keep in mind?
Understand and Follow the Pass Rules
Communicate effectively and act accordingly
Have fun and enjoy youself



Edit: updated 12/27/07

This post has been edited by NorCalCigarLover: 27 December 2007 - 02:08 PM

[Allofus123]

Cigar Pass FAQ Q: & A:

What are your thoughts on the equality of a trade (one for one)? Do you ever put in more than what the cigar is worth or more than just one cigar? What about a host bag and what is it?

If in a pass, it is a given to replace any cigars taken on a one for one basis with a cigar of equal or greater value. It is not normally acceptable to take a Havana and replace with a domestic. I tend to leave little doubt about my replacement cigars being of equal or greater value so yes, I usually put in cigars valued more than the cigar I’ve taken though it is not neccessary. I have put more cigars in a pass than I’ve taken but never replace a $10 cigar with two $5 cigars. Usually the extra cigars are something I think others in the pass may like to try. I don’t personally care for a host bag unless there is something particularly special going on. The above is based on usual standard Pass rules. There are always exceptions and the Host is responsible for laying the foundation of any exceptions.


When deciding what cigars to put into a pass, what are some of the factors of the cigar's condition that you check before putting it into a pass?

The cigar should be in outstanding condition period. The exception to this would be very old cigars that may have a small split at the foot or some other minor imperfection that will not effect the smoking of the cigar.


How do you determine a cigar's value when attempting to trade for the cigar in a pass? How do you determine your own cigar's value? What are your thoughts on MSRP? What are your thoughts on Going Market Value?

A cigars value is whatever someone is willing to pay for it. With that said, for Pass purposes we have to be somewhat flexible between MSRP and Market Value. Add to this the wide difference in taxes each State charges and you have a range of value that’s not quite exact from one person to the next. MSRP is a good base to use.

How do you factor in rarity, or even determine a cigar's rarity? Can rarity be given a monetary amount?

If its rare then there was a premium paid for it. If you do not know the approx value of a rare cigar it is perfectly acceptable and recommended to inquire from the person that put the cigar in the pass as to its value.

How do you factor in the age of a cigar into a trade? Is this something that should be considered for domestics as well as ISOMs? Can age be given a monetary amount?

In a pass it is not normally acceptable to take aged cigars and replace with new production. Example would be replacing a 98 cigar with a 06 cigar. There are exceptions and they should be spelled out by the Pass Host prior to the pass starting. Age does carry a premium and that premium depends on the amount of age and the cigar itself. Very little, if any premium, IMO, for a cigar under 4 to 5 years.


As a cigar pass continues, sometimes the value of some of the sticks increase. Let's say someone traded for stick #3, a $5 stick, and put in stick #22, an $8 stick. If a passer down the line wanted to trade for stick #22, could s/he trade it for a $5 stick? Why or why not?

NO, if one takes an $8 stick he should replace it with a stick of equal or greater value. This shouldn’t have to be explained.

Trades in passes seem to be kept to a stricter standard than many trades I have done or heard about on the board. Why is this?

Trades done between two people are very different than trades done during a pass. When doing a trade between two people you have only yourself and the other person to satisfy that the trade is fair and equal. In a Pass you have maybe a dozen people involved and trades done on the front end of a pass actually involve every other person in the pass that has yet to receive the pass. Trying to keep the criteria somewhat the same is the objective.

Why is it recommended that you participate in a few passes before considering hosting a pass yourself? Isn't the host of the pass the one risking his/her cigars?

This is sorta like asking why should I take flying lessons if I already own a plane. All one has to do is read previous passes to see that problems come up during passes and having someone at the helm that knows whats right and wrong is essential. Most things should be covered on the front end of a pass but unless you have participated in a few you will have no idea of what to expect. I personally believe it should be a requirement to participate in at least three or four before hosting one.

What are your thoughts on trading gifted cigars in a pass?

If someone hosts a pass, IMO, the cigars they receive are their cigars to do with what they wish. An example would be if I received several cigars that I know I do not like I would have no problem trading them to someone that does like them. With that said, IMO, anyone that hosts a pass and then is obviously using cigars received in the pass for trading or financial gain then I would consider this individual to be taking advantage of the people who participated in the pass and not acceptable.


It seems that a pass' value increases as it continues. Does it seem like the pass host is profiting from having a pass? Does it happen?

A Pass is not designed to increase in value but frequently does. Usually the generosity of the participants is the culprit.


What are your thoughts on the concept of leaving the pass better than you found it? Does that phrase have anything to do with the cigars in the pass?

That concept involves everything with the Pass. One should always check the container to insure whatever is being used to humidify the cigars is properly charged. One should always inventory the pass when received and again when it is shipped. Check the accuracy of the cigar list. Check the packaging…. Does it need to be replaced? All in all " leaving the pass better than you found it" is about looking out for the other participants in the pass just as you would expect for them to look out for you. Its up to each person to care for the pass properly and make decisions based on whats best for the pass.


What would be your top three guiding principles that any pass participant should keep in mind?

Common Sense
Integrity
Have Fun

This post has been edited by Allofus123: 29 May 2007 - 03:40 PM

[Blue Dragon]

Cigar Pass FAQ Q: & A:

All my comments are geared around passes in general. Each pass will have its own set of rules which should be followed and may lend themselves to exceptions.

What are your thoughts on the equality of a trade (one for one)? Do you ever put in more than what the cigar is worth or more than just one cigar? What about a host bag and what is it?

I believe strongly in trading one for one, value for value. If I choose to put in more than one cigar, e.g. take 3 put 5, it is for some personal reason and is no way expected or mandatory. If I thought it was expected, I probably wouldn't be in the pass.

A host bag is a place for participants to give a cigar to the host that are not to be traded for in the pass; it is in VERY poor taste if started by the pass host. And again, it is up to each person's discretion if s/he wants to put something in there and should never be considered mandatory.

When deciding what cigars to put into a pass, what are some of the factors of the cigar's condition that you check before putting it into a pass?

Cigars may get damaged as a pass moves on so I try to put in cigars that are in excellent shape. The foot shouldn't be cracked, the wrapper shouldn't be scarred or peeling, and the tip shouldn't already be clipped or punched.

I also try to look at what cigars are already in the pass. It is nice to have some variety and not be overloaded with one style or manufacturer.

How do you determine a cigar's value when attempting to trade for the cigar in a pass? How do you determine your own cigar's value? What are your thoughts on MSRP? What are your thoughts on Going Market Value?

Since this is an Internet cigar board, I look for pricing from online retailers. I try to find both my Take and Put from the same online source to compare pricing, and I try to find at least two and up to four different sources if possible. I will look at the box price and divide by the number of cigars in the box to find the price per cigar. MSRP is great when comparing cigars by one producer (all Padron or Fuente) and can be helpful when pricing is difficult to find. However, it usually doesn't take into account rarity, age, or popularity. Do some research!!!

How do you factor in rarity, or even determine a cigar's rarity? Can rarity be given a monetary amount?

Rarity is difficult, especially if you are new to cigars or the variety that is out there. Moki's website, vitolas.net has some good info on rarity. But when in doubt, the best way to find out is to ask, either the pass host or another respected member of this board should be able to assist.

How do you factor in the age of a cigar into a trade? Is this something that should be considered for domestics as well as ISOMs? Can age be given a monetary amount?

Age can add to a cigars rarity, and for ISOMs it seems to greatly enhance the experience of smoking the cigar. Equating the age to a dollar amount is possible and there are a couple thoughts on this (A, B). 1 - 3 years of difference isn't a very big difference, but 10 years is huge. It is something that should definitely be kept in mind.

As a cigar pass continues, sometimes the value of some of the sticks increase. Let's say someone traded for stick #3, a $5 stick, and put in stick #22, an $8 stick. If a passer down the line wanted to trade for stick #22, could s/he trade it for a $5 stick? Why or why not?

Hell No! Who knows why the person put in a more valuable cigar, but it was his/her option to leave the pass better than they found it. Nuff said.

Trades in passes seem to be kept to a stricter standard than many trades I have done or heard about on the board. Why is this?

Passes have a lot of eyes on them. There is everyone in the pass and a ton of members looking on. The last thing we would want is to set a precedence of a poorly run pass. (Slippery Slope)

Why is it recommended that you participate in a few passes before considering hosting a pass yourself? Isn't the host of the pass the one risking his/her cigars?

I blundered this one when I first joined. To put simply, You don't know what you don't know! Enthusiasm is encouraged, just take a little guidance. As I said before, there are a lot of eyes on passes and we don't want to set a precedence for poorly run passes. (profiteering, fakes, stolen cigars, damaged cigars, etc.)

What are your thoughts on trading gifted cigars in a pass?

If you don't know the source of the cigar, you should never put it in a pass. If you don't know how the cigar has been cared for, you probably shouldn't put it in a pass. Personally, I think it is in bad form. Passes should be kept to a higher standard.

It seems that a pass' value increases as it continues. Does it seem like the pass host is profiting from having a pass? Does it happen?

Passes are expensive in both time and money. There is a lot of money in cigars that the host is risking for the benefit of others, and there is no guarantee that s/he will get back the cigars, and if s/he does they may not even be cigars that s/he likes. Profiteering is frowned upon and if suspected, s/he will get his/her ass handed to 'em.

What are your thoughts on the concept of leaving the pass better than you found it? Does that phrase have anything to do with the cigars in the pass?

It could have something to do with the cigars, but usually refers to the pass itself. Traveling to a bunch of people can be hard on the pass and cigars, so do what you can to breath some life into it. Swap out the shipping box. Check the humidity. Add some baggies. Add a pen or sharpie. Etc.

What would be your top three guiding principles that any pass participant should keep in mind?

Communication
Leave the pass better than you found it
Have Fun!!!!!

This post has been edited by Blue Dragon: 30 May 2007 - 11:13 AM

[Devin Cole]

Place Holder : As Requested

[cohibasurfer]

In cohibasurfer's opinion.

1. What are your thoughts on the equality of a trade (one for one)? Do you ever put in more than what the cigar is worth or more than just one cigar? What about a host bag and what is it?

Host bags are ok, but should not be manditory. A host bag is a seperate part of the pass that players can put something in stricly for the host. It should be totaly voluntary. If someone doesn't put something in, there should be no hard feelings, not everyone has the financial ability to do this. If there is a host bag , it is off limits to the general players. It is completely seperate from all general puts and takes.


2. When deciding what cigars to put into a pass, what are some of the factors of the cigar's condition that you check before putting it into a pass?

That it is in the best condition possible. Never put something in that you wouldn't hand someone face to face.

3. How do you determine a cigar's value when attempting to trade for the cigar in a pass? How do you determine your own cigar's value? What are your thoughts on MSRP? What are your thoughts on Going Market Value?

Again...When swaping cigars in a public pass, one should use the same site to establish values on puts and takes. Do not use different sites to get a low price for a take and a high price for a put. I myself equaly match the $ amount of my put for my take (it's ok to go over with your put, just try not to go way overboard as people down the road may not be able to take due to $ restrictions). I don't like MSRP, it isn't accountable for taxes and rarity.

4. How do you factor in rarity, or even determine a cigar's rarity? Can rarity be given a monetary amount?

Rare cigars shouldn't be traded in begining passes. To much fluxuation in value. This needs to be done in a more relaxed and friend orientated pass atmosphere or person trades. Yes.

5. How do you factor in the age of a cigar into a trade? Is this something that should be considered for domestics as well as ISOMs? Can age be given a monetary amount?

I use about a 3-5% a year rule. But if you can readily obtain aged sticks.. that is the market price. I don't believe that domestics should fall in this catagory.



6. As a cigar pass continues, sometimes the value of some of the sticks increase. Let's say someone traded for stick #3, a $5 stick, and put in stick #22, an $8 stick. If a passer down the line wanted to trade for stick #22, could s/he trade it for a $5 stick? Why or why not?

NO! Because the take was worth more. Like I said earlier that's why you should keep the puts as close to the take as possible, you can always throw in a stick just for the pass if you fel like it.

7. Trades in passes seem to be kept to a stricter standard than many trades I have done or heard about on the board. Why is this?

Personal trades are excepted by the people trading. When a pass is underway it belongs to everyone playing not just the host and that particular player.

8. Why is it recommended that you participate in a few passes before considering hosting a pass yourself? Isn't the host of the pass the one risking his/her cigars?

To many variables to learn. You need to crawl before you walk, walk before you run.

9. What are your thoughts on trading gifted cigars in a pass?

I personally don't think that it's a good idea. When someone gifts you a cigar, you should smoke it. That generally is the intention of the gifter.

10. It seems that a pass' value increases as it continues. Does it seem like the pass host is profitting from having a pass? Does it happen?

It does 99.99% of the time because of the general rule you can't put in a lesser valued cigar for a take. Anyone doing passes just for reward is not anyone I want to assosiate with. Yes... unfortunately it does.

11. What are your thoughts on the concept of leaving the pass better than you found it? Does that phrase have anything to do with the cigars in the pass?

RULE #1 Of course.

12. What would be your top three guiding principles that any pass participant should keep in mind?

Passes cost you more than you get dollar wise.
Make sure you can meet the requirements listed before you jump in.
Make sure you will be available to complete your end in a timely fashion.


He reserves the right to modify any and all questions answered as well as change his position on all answers given, as to not take any heat from the bully's on this forum.

This post has been edited by cohibasurfer: 26 October 2007 - 12:09 PM

[moki]

In Moki's opinion...

Cigar Pass FAQ Q: & A:

1. What are your thoughts on the equality of a trade (one for one)? Do you ever put in more than what the cigar is worth or more than just one cigar? What about a host bag and what is it?

A cigar box pass is first and foremost a social event. It brings people together, it gets people talking about cigars, and hopefully everyone learns a thing or two and has some fun with it.

As such I think one should behave as one would at a social event: in a respectful, and "do unto others..." manner. That means that if you're feeling generous, sure, put a cigar that's worth more than what you took or put more than one cigar.

Be careful doing a "quantity for quality trade" though, that is, taking one rare/expensive cigar and putting in two or more lesser quality or less expensive cigars so that things "even out in the end." This is like claiming 3 fat ugly chicks equals one hot chick. We all know that ain't the case.

Running a box pass is actually a decent bit of work for the host; as such, some people have come up with the concept of a "host bag". They will put cigars into the host bag, and these cigars are intended ONLY for the person who initiated the pass.

My personal opinion is that I don't like this practice; it's like throwing a party and asking everyone to donate above and beyond your time and expenses, and profiting from the party. That's not what the social event that a cigar box pass is about.

So I think people who start a pass with a host bag in it already are being a bit... unseemly. If the participants of the pass decide to take it unto themselves and create a host bag, perhaps because they like the guy running the box pass or wish to express their appreciation, then more power to 'em.

Just don't feel obligated to contribute to a host bag simply because it exists.

2. When deciding what cigars to put into a pass, what are some of the factors of the cigar's condition that you check before putting it into a pass?

Ensure the cigar is properly humidified; check that the cigar is not damaged in any way (cracked wrapper, mold, water damage, etc.). If the cigar doesn't have any cellophane on it, put it in a small cigar baggy. You should inspect the cigars the same way you would when purchasing a cigar at a local retail shop. If you wouldn't buy it, don't put it into the pass.

3. How do you determine a cigar's value when attempting to trade for the cigar in a pass? How do you determine your own cigar's value? What are your thoughts on MSRP? What are your thoughts on Going Market Value?

It's actually quite a bit of work and research to do MSRP for MSRP, and it only gets worse when you realize that for many cigars, MSRP is just not what people pay for them. My personal view on this is again common sense courtesy.

The totality of your puts/takes should end up being quite fair, in that the overall value of what you're taking is the same as what you're putting, on average (but be careful to not violate the "quantity for quality" issue noted above).

In terms of value, some cigars you may be taking a bit more than you're putting, other cigars you may be putting more than you're taking, but overall, if someone gave you the cigars you're putting in exchange for the cigars you're taking, you should be a happy camper. If not, then you're doing something wrong.

4. How do you factor in rarity, or even determine a cigar's rarity? Can rarity be given a monetary amount?

People ask me this question for valuing cigars all the time, and it is a tough one to answer. Rare cigars are like the housing market: they are worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for them. The best that I generally can do is let people know approximately what a particular cigar tends to sell for (to the best of my knowledge) and proceed from there.

The tough part is that what is rare for some people may not be rare for others. And also rarity in and of itself has no value to some people, and is extremely valuable to others. The cigar smoker who could care less that only 100 of a particular cigar were produced won't be impressed when you put it into their box pass in exchange for a cigar that has a much higher MSRP.

For example, the mythical Flor Fina 858 Rosado. This cigar original sold for $6 per cigar... but it is a very rare cigar produced 5 years ago (as of this writing) in limited quantities. Few people will ever see it; what's it worth?

That is a question that isn't easily answered, other than by seeing what people are generally paying for these cigars. For the record, Flor Fina 858 Rosados tend to go for about triple MSRP these days, which goes to show you why MSRP for MSRP doesn't take all of the factors into account that probably should be.

5. How do you factor in the age of a cigar into a trade? Is this something that should be considered for domestics as well as ISOMs? Can age be given a monetary amount?

I personally make no distinction between Cuban and non-Cuban cigars, but some hosts do. Abide by the rules of the host; if they say only take a Cuban cigar if you put a Cuban cigar, then honor their wishes.

In terms of age, I do think age has value. It's generally accepted that most quality tobacco improves with age; but even if you disagree with this, the act of holding onto a cigar and caring for it in pristine conditions for years and years does have some intrinsic value, I believe.

A general rule of thumb that I use is that the cigars go up 10% in value for every year you've aged them. This is utterly arbitrary, but it seems reasonable to me. Of course this doesn't take into account the "rarity factor" mentioned above, or cigars that are out of production (and thus no longer available for aging even if you wanted to).

If you can, when you take a cigar of a particular year, try your best to put another cigar of similar value and similar age. That solves the problem neatly, but again I think this can be done in a "holistic" manner, that is, as long as the totality of your puts/takes is something that adds up reasonably, I think you're okay.

If biggest issue is, if you don't know, then ask. If you don't have any idea what a cigar might be worth, or how rare it is, ask the host, or ask people in the box pass thread to help you out.

6. As a cigar pass continues, sometimes the value of some of the sticks increase. Let's say someone traded for stick #3, a $5 stick, and put in stick #22, an $8 stick. If a passer down the line wanted to trade for stick #22, could s/he trade it for a $5 stick? Why or why not?

When the cigar pass arrives at your doorstep, I think you should look at the cigars as they arrive as the starting point, and ignore anything that has happened previously in the pass. The only exception I generally make is that if I feel someone has "shorted" the pass in some way, I will bring things up a notch in my puts/takes to make things more fair for all involved.

So my answer to the hypothetical question posed is: "no -- you should not try to trade for the original value of the cigar that was taken previously... you should just look at what cigars you're taking, their value, their age, and their rarity."

7. Trades in passes seem to be kept to a stricter standard than many trades I have done or heard about on the board. Why is this?

The reason box passes are more strict than trades is simple: more people are involved, and any time more people are involved, you have more people to please. A trade is a one for one transaction; as long as both parties are pleased with the trade (and going into it with eyes wide open), there's no problem.

But in a pass, you have to please everyone, including the host. Again I'll use the party metaphor: the way you behave in a one on one situation is usually quite different then if you are at a social event where many people whose sensibilities you don't know are present.

So be on your best behavior, and realize that you simply have more people to make happy that you're "doing the right thing."

8. Why is it recommended that you participate in a few passes before considering hosting a pass yourself? Isn't the host of the pass the one risking his/her cigars?

In the business world, the best managers are the ones who have actually done the job of the people they are managing. It's the same with a box pass. It's best to see how things work before attempting to do it yourself. You will discover things that can only be learned by doing.

And it's best to learn those things before you have dozens of people who will be impacted by your poor managerial decisions.

9. What are your thoughts on trading gifted cigars in a pass?

My personal view is that once a cigar is given to you, it is yours to do with as you will. However, just as it is unseemly to package up the sweater that your friend gave you for Christmas and give it to someone else, I think the same thing applies here.

I don't think it's nearly as detrimental; cigars are rarely as intimate as gifts we might give on Christmas or other occasions. But still, exercise some common courtesy.

On the other hand, we all receive gifts that no matter how well intended, are not exactly "our thing." As such if there's a cigar you just really don't like that was gifted to you... I don't think you're obligated to keep it and smoke it anymore than you're obligated to wear that ugly sweater regularly.

But be discrete; thank the person for their gift, and throw it out or give it to someone else rather than publicly trading it in a box pass, and possibly offending them.

10. It seems that a pass' value increases as it continues. Does it seem like the pass host is profitting from having a pass? Does it happen?

Yes, this is a common occurrence. I think there's a fine balance between ensuring the individual participants of the pass are not grossly benefitting from the pass, as well as ensuring that the host is not grossly benefitting form the pass.

Now bear in mind that as mentioned previously, hosting a box pass is a lot of work. So if the host is rewarded a little bit for it, then I think that's okay. But if someone is clearly starting box passes not out of a desire for an enjoyable social event but rather to profit from it... well, I'd just suggest people stop coming to their parties.

One thing that I've seen done (and I like) is any cigars that are "extras" in terms of being more than the number of cigars that were originally put in the pass, or cigars that were put in the "host bag" is that they raffle these cigar off. The winner is a randomly drawn participant in the pass.

This makes it fun and fair for all involved, and ensures the host isn't ending up grossly benefitting from the pass. And that's what box passes should be about, really.

11. What are your thoughts on the concept of leaving the pass better than you found it? Does that phrase have anything to do with the cigars in the pass?

I've always viewed this as keeping the physical cigar pass in better shape then when you found it. Consider the box pass a timeshare condo that you and a bunch of friends share... clean the place and put things in order before you leave.

Same thing here; I don't think this has anything to do with the quality of the cigars you put into it, but rather inventorying the cigars to make sure everything is there and numbered properly, make sure the pass it padded properly, everything is properly humidified, etc.

12. What would be your top three guiding principles that any pass participant should keep in mind?

Ultimately, the most important thing is to abide by the guidelines that the host of the box pass lays out for you. That for me is the golden rule that supplants all others; it is his/her pass, after all, he/she makes the rules. However, that said, some rules of thumb are:

1) A box pass is a social event that brings people together; enjoy it and perhaps learn from it. Have fun.

2) Put yourself in the frame of mind that you're at a party with a group of people, some you know, and some you don't know, and act accordingly -- on your best behavior.

3) Don't be a jerk or you won't be invited back.

This post has been edited by moki: 25 October 2007 - 08:17 PM

[Blue Dragon]

Hello everyone, I have kept this thread on hold long enough. I offer it up to the rest of CP to add their insights, questions, and hopefully constructive comments on Cigar Passes.

Cheers!
- C

[ewanzel]

Thanks for all the hard work in putting this together...as a NOOB, my one silent critique of CP was that there was not a FAQ that I could find...now I have that....Thanks!

could this get pinned?

[badhangover]

Wherein any box pass begins with and/or accepts a medley of both N/C's and Habanos, I am not a hardline fan of the common rule of "Habano for Habano; N/C for N/C".

If a pass consists of any part Habanos, then I believe they are acceptable to the pass in whole. I personally think Habanos do carry some embargo imposed rarity cachet, and are thus worth just a lil' bit more than equal MSRP N/C cigars. That does not mean that I believe a regular production "young" Habano is of equal value with any of the high end N/C's. However, I do think it is acceptable to trade, say, a Montecristo #2, for an (similar sized) Ashton VSG or Ashton Aged Maduro, for example. As long as this is not abused in either direction (without permission), I think this adds variety to the pass instead of as how some passes I see with 3 to 5 token Habanos kinda languishing as selection dead weight.

I admit, this concept is of great benefit to me. I don't purchase N/C's by the box anymore. Also, I am generally averse to paying the obscene single stick prices of most of my local high taxed B&M's. Sure, I know of some B&M's that retail for fair prices, but those are generally not convenient to me in distance or due to my sheer laziness. Thus, I occasionally look forward to Habano for N/C trades. It's the only (cheap) way I can keep abreast of new N/C developments such as Pepin, Tatuaje, etc.

[Blue Dragon]

badhangover, on Dec 4 2007, 04:17 PM, said:

Wherein any box pass begins with and/or accepts a medley of both N/C's and Habanos, I am not a hardline fan of the common rule of "Habano for Habano; N/C for N/C".

That is an interesting question, that for some reason I didn't think to ask: Why do almost all of the passes on Cigar Pass have the rule ISOM for ISOM and NC for NC? I probably overlooked it because it seems like a basic standard ... sort of like driving on the right side of the road in the US.

That question could pose for quite a debate, and it might even be worth starting another thread asking to debate that issue. However, the rules of a pass are the rules of a pass; first and foremost, don't jump in one if you don't like the rules the host sets up.

So why is it a standard rule in passes on CP? The easiest and most available answer is rarity. As a US citizen, I can run down to a B&M and grab a domestic stick, whereas I can not run down to the B&M and grab an ISOM. With most passes staying w/in the US, it is easy to extrapolate that without that rule you would see the "token handful of Habanos" disappear early on in the pass, never to be seen again later on in the pass. Which is the exact reason you see the "token handful of Habanos" not get traded out with a lot of regularity. Where you may be an exception to the rule, the majority of people in the US are not.

Hope this helps.
- C

[badhangover]

Without a doubt you make good points. The vast majority of USA cigar smokers are not regular Habano smokers, nor are they smokers of even the most basic premium N/C's for that matter.

The pass host is the undisputed commandant. Goes without saying. It's his pass, and he/she has the right to set the rules as they see fit. If I don't like the rules, I don't join. Individual choice works both ways. I do, however, believe in rare "mutinies" if the pass host carries himself as a 'tard during the pass.

If the pass consists of both N/C's and Habanos, why let those Habanos languish? Due to the embargo imposed rarity of Habanos, thus artificially inflating their value, I would gladly see participants put a very nice cigar to avail themselves of that aforementioned Montecristo #2. If one has delved into the realm of Habanos, then that Montecristo #2, and/or most other Habanos, really aren't that rare anymore. I won't cry to see the Habano go away. I'd have others of my own - or the ability to procure them. I'd be looking to trade value for value based purely on my personal tastes and not merely their provenance.

I really see no reason to steadfastly stick to that rule of "Habano for Habano; N/C for N/C".

Just my opinion.

[Ginseng]

Good question and thanks to Cory (BlueDragon) for setting up this thread.

One question at the root of the "Cuban for Cuban" rule is whether Cuban cigars and non-Cuban cigars comprise two distinct categories. Of further concern is whether these categories are natural or derived. Of ultimate interest is whether being of two different categories provides reasonable justification for segregating Cubans from non-Cubans in trading action.

A natural category, in this case, means a distinction by virtue of an inherent property or characteristic that is exclusive of an item's being in another category. For example, reptiles and amphibians are natural categories and one cannot be both a reptile and an amphibian. In the case of cigars, characteristics which might lead to the assignment of cigars to natural categories are whether they are puros, maduros/naturals, parejos/figurados, etc.

A derived category in the case of cigars means a distinction by virtue of some aspect that is not either a measurable or predefined product characteristic. By measurable I mean things like ring gauge or length and by predefined I mean things like flavored or unflavored which are determined in the manufacture of that cigar. Examples of derived categories, then, might be strength, expensive (versus cheap), high quality (versus low).

As to the first point of whether or not Cuban cigars comprise a category distinct from non-Cubans, I'd argue that the answer is yes. They are puros from Cuba. In this respect, they are different from every other non-Cuban cigar. Represented as a Venn diagram, the two circles encompass all possible cigars and the these two circles do not overlap, there is no intersection.

As to the second point regarding the nature of the difference between these two categories, I'd argue that Cubans and non-Cubans comprise two different natural categories on the basis of a difference in predetermined product characteristic: tobacco sourced solely from Cuba and produced entirely in Cuba.

The final point is the one of interest here. Does the fact that Cubans and non-Cubans comprise two distinct, natural categories of cigars support their segregation in trading? I'd argue that the issue of rarity is not material in this case precisely for the reasons BH cited. To answer this question, we could consider several aspects of how these two different categories support segregation but I think the one that Cory raised is the most relevant but it's actually hidden. This is to say that Cubans and non-Cubans also fall into two different derived categories that are a consequence of their coming from the two natural categories identified above: legal and illegal (with respect to U.S. citizens).

Where this is material is in the consideration that legal goods not be exchanged for illegal goods. In terms of the trade, the point is that we do not increase the illegality of the trade participants. In other words, those passers who have Cubans have already made the decision and taken the risk to own these goods. The pass should not be a vehicle for expanding the risk to participants who have not already made such a decision. I am saying that this is protective, in a sense. It is the only reason and justification that I can come up with that speaks to ethical obligations and considerations of the pass.

Now this is true for a pass where a significant proportion of the participants come from open enrollment. In other words, a public or open pass which is expected to be accessible to "any" member of the community. It's a different thing altogether when you consider private, invitation only, or themed passes where the expectation is that all the participants are potentially "dirty."

So that's my take on it. I'm thankful for the opportunity to discuss these ideas. That's one reason why CP is the best cigar forum on the 'net.

Wilkey

[badhangover]

An excellent post, Wilkey. I would never expose fellow box pass participants to potential penalties derived from the introduction of contraband cigars (Habanos) wherein they did not choose to participate in such a risky venture. N/C for N/C passes should strictly remain so, in my opinion.

My questioning of this rule is when it applies to box passes beginning with both N/C and Habano cigars. I have seen such passes. It would seem then that each participant has willingly exposed themselves to any risk as a result of voluntarily transacting in Habanos - by virtue of knowingly receiving Habanos and then sending the box containing Habanos to its next recipient. Adding, or removing, more Habanos during the pass does not make the transgression any more illegal (we're not talking about trafficking in Habano mastercase sums here). The box pass itself already is illegal in such a configuration merely by containing Habanos to begin with.

So is it okay to put in a Montecristo #2 in return for a Don Pepin whatever (I'm not familiar with the individual cigars of this line) ? Up to the pass host, to be sure, but is there a general concensus as well?

[grateful1]

In my opinion....
....Matt and Devin are the same person!


Also....excellent stuff in here - thanks for taking the time and putting in the effort.

[Mark Twain]

There are so many exceedingly good points in this thread that I believe will help answer a large number of pass questions. I think there may be a benefit in discussing the Cuban for N/C rule. It makes perfect sense to me and should be obvious to everyone why it’s in place, but I think there are some situations and circumstances that occur where the rules don’t apply because of the rarity of the cigar.

Some N/C and Cuban special release or limited run cigars can be, and often are equally rare IMO.

[Mike33]

Geez Wilkey, I like to think I'm pretty bright (even though there are quite a few people who will disagree), but that was an excellent and well thought out post that leaves me humbled

My opinion, right or wrong, is there is a large disparity b/w cuban and non-cuban cigars in terms of cost comparison. I might be able to buy, say a certain cuban lonsdale with 7 years of age on it for roughly $8 a stick. Would I trade it for MOST $20 NCs? Absolutely not. Just because a NC goes for a lot more doesn't make it an equal put in my very humble opinion.

Is that biased against NCs? Sure. Do I care? No. That is simply my opinion and what my feelings are with regards to placing value on NC and cuban cigars.