194 replies to this topic

[grateful1]

Most may know that a sale of these cigars occurred in 2009. LINKY

It has been shown that the bands are not authentic and the tobacco is not from the era in which the cigars were to have been made.

To not lose this question in the other thread, I started this one.

[Bsneed51]

The other question in the whole sale of those cigars, is exactly who all is held accountable? To what extent is each person involved responsible?

[grateful1]

The other question in the whole sale of those cigars, is exactly who all is held accountable? To what extent is each person involved responsible?

The seller has always been accountable and responsible.

[Yeahthatsme]

Have we heard from Tkoepp at all on this?

[insight]

The other question in the whole sale of those cigars, is exactly who all is held accountable? To what extent is each person involved responsible?

The seller has always been accountable and responsible.

This one is a little more complicated, thousands of these have unwittingly changed hands. Should I add everyone who put one in a pass or trade? This isn't going to be a snap decision.

[Wurm]

The other question in the whole sale of those cigars, is exactly who all is held accountable? To what extent is each person involved responsible?

The seller has always been accountable and responsible.

I don't consider Tim to be the seller. He brought the deal here, but after reading up on this whole sordid mess, it seems he along with many others (all over the online cigar world) got taken. Including some of the people a lot of us consider "experts".

Tim should at the very least be VOCAL about the matter since it was brought to light, but adding him to the list isn't going to help anyone.

The people who need to be added to the list (and criminally pursued, tax evasion is just one thing that comes to mind) are the ones who have made hundreds of thousands of dollars selling fakes. Not someone who was duped into advertising for them here.

Asking Tim to apologize and give his side of the story is in line. Making him the scapegoat isn't.

[jfields]

It's a grey area having someone criminally pursued for the sale supposed of illegal Cuban cigars. It would be like turning your drug dealer in for selling you fake cocaine.

I don't blame Tim either, but it would be nice to hear him expand on this, and how he became involved, etc.

[tone-ny]

Tim has dropped out of CP and ICC. I'm sure that he has heard by now that the cigars are not what they were represented as. I doubt he will come here to state anything as he probably got cigars for brokering the deal.

[grateful1]

Tim has dropped out of CP and ICC. I'm sure that he has heard by now that the cigars are not what they were represented as. I doubt he will come here to state anything as he probably got cigars for brokering the deal.

That's not the case, at least when he was ask that question. It's noted in the F/S thread.

As I stated, this thread is posted for Q/A(so as to not get lost) and what I would hope to be an eventual resolution.

This isn't another board where this crap might get swept aside.

[tone-ny]

While I could be wrong, I'm sure something was given to him for helping move the cigars.

[Wurm]

Tim has dropped out of CP and ICC. I'm sure that he has heard by now that the cigars are not what they were represented as. I doubt he will come here to state anything as he probably got cigars for brokering the deal.

You started the thread at ICC on the 19th of May and Tim's last activity here was on the 1st of June.

It's a grey area having someone criminally pursued for the sale supposed of illegal Cuban cigars. It would be like turning your drug dealer in for selling you fake cocaine.

An anonymous tip to the IRS would be enough to get the ball rolling... just saying. You won't see any of your hard earned cash returned, but they won't be enjoying it either.

[BlindedByScience]

A very unfortunate situation. If Tim was compensated for bringing the deal to CP, that sure doesn't make it better. I can't believe that he'd be complicit in moving fakes.

I'd like to hear from him as well.

[Yeahthatsme]

I guess what I wonder is how many people in the chain of sellers knew they were fakes.

[Mark Twain]

I haven't bought or sold cigars on a message forum in almost two years. It's just not worth it. Not to me. People who you know, become friends with and hang out online and in-person have used their position for profit way too much.

It's this strange "internet morality" that gets me. Folks log in and work the community til they get their fix (sometimes takes years) then zip out, often leaving behind a wave of ticked off members who are out a lot of cash. I know it's a simplistic view of a complex situation, and I'm not saying Tim is that guy, but it's a pattern I've only noticed when a lot of folks leave.

[Bsneed51]

I guess my question more than anything would be the extent to which someone like Tim, or someone who traded or passed these should be held accountable. Obviously I don't know for a fact that Tim didn't know these were suspect but my guess is that he had no clue. Obviously these were well enough done that they didn't get questioned immediately, and it took some people with a great deal of knowledge to sort this out and come to a final conclussion.

Obviously it goes back to knowing your source, but at some point even good people get fooled by well done fakes.

[BlindedByScience]

I guess my question more than anything would be the extent to which someone like Tim, or someone who traded or passed these should be held accountable. Obviously I don't know for a fact that Tim didn't know these were suspect but my guess is that he had no clue. Obviously these were well enough done that they didn't get questioned immediately, and it took some people with a great deal of knowledge to sort this out and come to a final conclussion.

Obviously it goes back to knowing your source, but at some point even good people get fooled by well done fakes.

Great question.

Does bringing a deal to the forums mean you vouch for the source? IMHO....it does to some level. Recall the "granola smoothie" incident from not too long ago and how the dust settled (or failed to settle) on that mess.

What if you're being compensated for the smokes you sell? We have a "no profit" rule here and that would seem to completely violate it....if it happened.

Sure would like to hear from the players.....

[Wurm]

I guess my question more than anything would be the extent to which someone like Tim, or someone who traded or passed these should be held accountable. Obviously I don't know for a fact that Tim didn't know these were suspect but my guess is that he had no clue. Obviously these were well enough done that they didn't get questioned immediately, and it took some people with a great deal of knowledge to sort this out and come to a final conclussion.

Obviously it goes back to knowing your source, but at some point even good people get fooled by well done fakes.

Great question.

Does bringing a deal to the forums mean you vouch for the source? IMHO....it does to some level. Recall the "granola smoothie" incident from not too long ago and how the dust settled (or failed to settle) on that mess.

What if you're being compensated for the smokes you sell? We have a "no profit" rule here and that would seem to completely violate it....if it happened.

Sure would like to hear from the players.....

This scam isn't even close to being in the same league as the OR Anjeo mess from a while back. Not even close at all, Tom. That is like comparing someone putting their hand in the collection plate to Bernie Madoff. Both are horrible for sure, but the difference in scale is huge.

And yes Tim does need to tell his side of the story for sure.

[BlindedByScience]

This scam isn't even close to being in the same league as the OR Anjeo mess from a while back. Not even close at all, Tom. That is like comparing someone putting their hand in the collection plate to Bernie Madoff. Both are horrible for sure, but the difference in scale is huge.

And yes Tim does need to tell his side of the story for sure.

Fair enough....agreed the scale is completely different. And we still need to hear from Tim......

[insight]

Just to reiterate: we are talking about what approaches 7 figures here and spans numerous boards. Some individuals have more invested in these cigars than all of CP has spent this year on cigars total. Just food for thought as to why not all info may be available yet and why I/we are taking time to get everything done.

[mmburtch]

I guess my question more than anything would be the extent to which someone like Tim, or someone who traded or passed these should be held accountable. Obviously I don't know for a fact that Tim didn't know these were suspect but my guess is that he had no clue. Obviously these were well enough done that they didn't get questioned immediately, and it took some people with a great deal of knowledge to sort this out and come to a final conclussion.

Obviously it goes back to knowing your source, but at some point even good people get fooled by well done fakes.

I passed one. When this broke, I reached out to the person it passed to. I know as the passer, I am responsible for what I'm passing. This particular situation is pretty cloudy though. The list of buyers here alone reads as a who's who. Also there were players in that pass who presumably knew about the investigation and didn't comment or warn me (not their fault). I'm guessing at that time the investigation was at a stage where it was a tight knit secret, or simply was as yet inconclusive. I would have to say passers and traders in this case get an expensive lesson and we move on.

I know Tim as a very generous guy, as many of us do. I would very much like to hear from him, and I would like to believe he was duped along with the rest of us.

The part that really irks me is that as a result of all of this, Spivy gets to look like the smart one.