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Not Your Everyday Cigar Pass

cohibasurfer said:
Ginseng said:
Mike,

I'm not clear on the point you're trying to make. Would you mind just elaborating a little? This is my first pass on CP and I want to make sure I am understanding the mechanics and culture of the pass.

Wilkey
Click to expand...
Ok...

Here's the way I view passes ( especially passes with higher end sticks and lower member number players). Alot of newbie passers look on. So, If you take a $14 stick and put a $10 stick ... even if you're putting 2 extra... very very good sticks. It resembles quanity for quality. We constantly have to watch the board for the scumbags that come in and pray on our board and claim they don't understand the rules. If... even though it's petty to some of us in this pass, we condone it, then how can we make stands against the "real" shysters that often infiltrate our house?

That is why I hate to see a listed P&T where the take is valued higher than the put by over 2 bits.
Click to expand...

Mike,

I believe I see where you're coming from. Thanks for clarifying an important point.

So, one possible solution which maintains the same overall input/output might be to PUT the 1997/8 PL Lonsdale against the Sir Winston TAKE and then do a clean PUT of the RyJ 1999 Churchill?

This way, both sticks would still be in play to the next participant, as before. The differential in this case would be in the range of +$10 to +$15 in the HUSW(T)-PLL(P). Would that work?

Brian,

I think it could be interpreted that 2 years of age in this case is not significant, especially as I think it is generally perceived that the Sir Winston is a "better" cigar. I've recently smoked 2001 SW against 1998 and 2000 RyJ Churchills and I find the SW in a different class.

Wilkey
 
Ginseng said:
Brian,

I think it could be interpreted that 2 years of age in this case is not significant, especially as I think it is generally perceived that the Sir Winston is a "better" cigar. I've recently smoked 2001 SW against 1998 and 2000 RyJ Churchills and I find the SW in a different class.

Wilkey
Click to expand...
Thanks for the clarification Wilkey.

Just to expand on this a little. The value in question was $3 against 2 years age. You find the SW in a different class, others may find the RyJ Churchill better. (This is just an example of these two cigars. ) Therefore, my question still remains, is current MSRP the way Mike believes the pass should go?

Personally I think it better to put more then you take :)

Brian
 
Ginseng said:
cohibasurfer said:
Ginseng said:
Mike,

I'm not clear on the point you're trying to make. Would you mind just elaborating a little? This is my first pass on CP and I want to make sure I am understanding the mechanics and culture of the pass.

Wilkey
Click to expand...
Ok...

Here's the way I view passes ( especially passes with higher end sticks and lower member number players). Alot of newbie passers look on. So, If you take a $14 stick and put a $10 stick ... even if you're putting 2 extra... very very good sticks. It resembles quanity for quality. We constantly have to watch the board for the scumbags that come in and pray on our board and claim they don't understand the rules. If... even though it's petty to some of us in this pass, we condone it, then how can we make stands against the "real" shysters that often infiltrate our house?

That is why I hate to see a listed P&T where the take is valued higher than the put by over 2 bits.
Click to expand...

Mike,

I believe I see where you're coming from. Thanks for clarifying an important point.

So, one possible solution which maintains the same overall input/output might be to PUT the 1997/8 PL Lonsdale against the Sir Winston TAKE and then do a clean PUT of the RyJ 1999 Churchill?

This way, both sticks would still be in play to the next participant, as before. The differential in this case would be in the range of +$10 to +$15 in the HUSW(T)-PLL(P). Would that work?

Brian,

I think it could be interpreted that 2 years of age in this case is not significant, especially as I think it is generally perceived that the Sir Winston is a "better" cigar. I've recently smoked 2001 SW against 1998 and 2000 RyJ Churchills and I find the SW in a different class.

Wilkey
Click to expand...

Most Definately!


I know, you know... most everyone here knows.... that all is more than good in Smokelaws exchange. It just needs to be listed correctly.

And for the record... I was in noway characterizing smoklaw1 as a cheat or scumbag or "shyster". Quite the contrary!
 
Brian,

Yes, I see your point. When I said that I find the SW in a different class, it's relevant to point out that this tends to reflect an opinion that is more prevalent than the reverse. This is my perception. Although it's not quite the same as saying the Sir Winston is better than a Jose L. Piedra, the difference remains one of degree. I love the RyJ Churchill but the Sir Winston is something special.

I'm curious to see how Mike responds to your MSRP question. I would think that age-adjusted MSRP would be the way to go. Although, again in this case I think it's a wash. But let's see what pearls of wisdom the surfer can shower on us. :)

BTW, this discussion has been valuable for me.

Wilkey
 
Infinity said:
Ginseng said:
Brian,

I think it could be interpreted that 2 years of age in this case is not significant, especially as I think it is generally perceived that the Sir Winston is a "better" cigar. I've recently smoked 2001 SW against 1998 and 2000 RyJ Churchills and I find the SW in a different class.

Wilkey
Click to expand...
Thanks for the clarification Wilkey.

Just to expand on this a little. The value in question was $3 against 2 years age. You find the SW in a different class, others may find the RyJ Churchill better. (This is just an example of these two cigars. ) Therefore, my question still remains, is current MSRP the way Mike believes the pass should go?

Personally I think it better to put more then you take :)

Brian
Click to expand...

Well my opinion is always MSRP, because taste is subjective. And of course age has is value, so.... it must be accounted for. I believe that the self acclaimed cigar goo-roo ;) and one of my heros came up with a .05% increase in value a year of age beyond common availability(Who would this be?)when stored Correctly with out a doubt. :cool: But that is subjective too! Right? Now with that formula... And I concur with it (so far)... $3 a stick for 2 years of age is 3 times what it should be in this case.

GET IT>>> GOT IT>>> GOOD! :p


Now what cha thinkin'? ???
 
cohibasurfer said:
Infinity said:
Just to expand on this a little. The value in question was $3 against 2 years age. <snip> Therefore, my question still remains, is current MSRP the way Mike believes the pass should go?

Personally I think it better to put more then you take :)

Brian
Click to expand...

Well my opinion is always MSRP, because taste is subjective. And of course age has is value, so.... it must be accounted for. I believe that the self acclaimed cigar goo-roo ;) and one of my heros came up with a .05% increase in value a year of age beyond common availability(Who would this be?)when stored Correctly with out a doubt. :cool: But that is subjective too! Right? Now with that formula... And I concur with it (so far)... $3 a stick for 2 years of age is 3 times what it should be in this case.

GET IT>>> GOT IT>>> GOOD! :p


Now what cha thinkin'? ???
Click to expand...
I remember an old post by Emodx where he listed 3% for an age calculation. However, after figuring a few passes, that seemed low to me, or should be graduated to a higher percentage for sticks over 5 years of age (like at least 5%).

So, if you take that into consideration, $10 vs. $13, at 5% for 2 years, that still comes out to $11 vs. $13.....still a little short IMO. And if you figure the current value from the base price of what that stick would be today and keep it simple, it still comes out to $13.50 vs. $16.25.

And the point of onlookers is well made. Passes have a much higher scrutiny than say a trade. There was a cigar I wanted to kill for but had no means to trade for it in the pass, however, viewphishy was quite the gentleman to trade it with me after the pass was over.

grateful1 said:
--------------------------------------------------------------
I'll be getting the sticks to and from Josh tomorrow night <we hope>. Here are my WANTS - those in the know - please PM me with pricing info so I know what I need to PUT.!
Click to expand...
LMAO!!! That's the beauty of the pass, YOU get to research the contents. You should be able to come up with a pretty good idea on most all of those sticks, and use the aforementioned figures for age, to come up pretty close. But I have no idea on that Boris 11; for that you might want to PM the gent that put it. :thumbs: If you are still stuck, shoot me a PM and I'll try to help where I can. But for future reference, it is a good idea to do the research on sticks you might want to trade for before they hit you. ;)
 
cohibasurfer said:
Ginseng said:
cohibasurfer said:
Ginseng said:
Mike,

I'm not clear on the point you're trying to make. Would you mind just elaborating a little? This is my first pass on CP and I want to make sure I am understanding the mechanics and culture of the pass.

Wilkey
Click to expand...
Ok...

Here's the way I view passes ( especially passes with higher end sticks and lower member number players). Alot of newbie passers look on. So, If you take a $14 stick and put a $10 stick ... even if you're putting 2 extra... very very good sticks. It resembles quanity for quality. We constantly have to watch the board for the scumbags that come in and pray on our board and claim they don't understand the rules. If... even though it's petty to some of us in this pass, we condone it, then how can we make stands against the "real" shysters that often infiltrate our house?

That is why I hate to see a listed P&T where the take is valued higher than the put by over 2 bits.
Click to expand...

Mike,

I believe I see where you're coming from. Thanks for clarifying an important point.

So, one possible solution which maintains the same overall input/output might be to PUT the 1997/8 PL Lonsdale against the Sir Winston TAKE and then do a clean PUT of the RyJ 1999 Churchill?

This way, both sticks would still be in play to the next participant, as before. The differential in this case would be in the range of +$10 to +$15 in the HUSW(T)-PLL(P). Would that work?

Brian,

I think it could be interpreted that 2 years of age in this case is not significant, especially as I think it is generally perceived that the Sir Winston is a "better" cigar. I've recently smoked 2001 SW against 1998 and 2000 RyJ Churchills and I find the SW in a different class.

Wilkey
Click to expand...

Most Definately!


I know, you know... most everyone here knows.... that all is more than good in Smokelaws exchange. It just needs to be listed correctly.

And for the record... I was in noway characterizing smoklaw1 as a cheat or scumbag or "shyster". Quite the contrary!
Click to expand...

Oooooo....me, me ...can I call him a "shyster".....pleeeeeeease?

:sign:


BTW - it may take pages up on the thread ...all this talk...I believe all this talk explains a lot. It explains how to behave in a pass< "shyster" >....and it shows how to value a cigar.

One thing that makes this difficult, to a degree, is if there is a Take of a $10 stick and Put of a $15 stick...then the price for the pass just goes up . I beileve - Gonz may clarify - that we are to do equal puts/takes....which in it self narrrows the pass window.

The difference of $2 between and $6 and $8 is a high markup - where as between $38 and $30 is not. So - a take/put within $2 seems scewed on one end. Then there's rarity - well...that's another beast. Not to mention the beast of personal taste.

These things are why I pm people about my P/T's - to get feedback on pricing. - ok caffiene's wearing off.... I'll resume this tomorrow. (This is a great learning experience!!!)

Oh - the switch of the lonsdale seems good! :thumbs:



<edit - spacing>
 
grateful1 said:
--------------------------------------------------------------
I'll be getting the sticks to and from Josh tomorrow night <we hope>. Here are my WANTS - those in the know - please PM me with pricing info so I know what I need to PUT.!
Click to expand...
LMAO!!! That's the beauty of the pass, YOU get to research the contents. You should be able to come up with a pretty good idea on most all of those sticks, and use the aforementioned figures for age, to come up pretty close. But I have no idea on that Boris 11; for that you might want to PM the gent that put it. :thumbs: If you are still stuck, shoot me a PM and I'll try to help where I can. But for future reference, it is a good idea to do the research on sticks you might want to trade for before they hit you. ;) [/quote]



PM sent.
 
grateful1 said:
The difference of $2 between and $6 and $8 is a high markup - where as between $38 and $30 is not. So - a take/put within $2 seems scewed on one end. Then there's rarity - well...that's another beast. Not to mention the beast of personal taste.
Click to expand...
I believe you meant $38 vs. $40. :)

I've wondered about this a lot. Here is my $.02, if someone takes a $6 stick and puts a $8 stick, that person did so with the intention of benefiting the host of the pass. Else, the person could have taken a $6 stick and put a $6 stick and then thrown a $2 stick in a host bag or something. Now, as a passee, it is not my perview to take advantage of the previous putter's generosity. And if I really want that stick, it has a value of $8, so I need to put something worth $8, or really close (see surfers 2 bits comment above).

Take my previous example of a T: VSG round for a P: Don Arturo Destino. How the hell do you follow that? That was the puttee's generosity to donate a now valued $120 stick, and there is no way I could rationalize putting a $20 stick, which might be more than the value of the VSG round, to take the Destino. It is then at that point the puttee's gift to the host.

And yes, the value of the pass sometimes goes up, so sometimes the host does something for the participants to make up for it, or sometimes the host might give away the cigars (Melsi's pass), ... but either way, I'm sure in this case it will be PIFed at somepoint. I'm not too worried about it. What I am worried about is as the value of the pass goes up, how the hell am I going to be able to do any P's and T's by the time it gets to me. ??? ;) It's all good. :thumbs:

And nobody should feel any pressure to add to a host bag or make extra puts. Starting a pass with a host bag is really bad form. I'll probably throw something extra in this pass, but that is just because I hate Gonz with a passion, and Grandma always said to pray for those you hate. I figure this is the next best thing. :laugh: :laugh: No ... it would be as a congratulations on his new baby!!! :cool:
 
OK - this is what I found out for MSRP. Most prices are based on a couple site averages. I only found a couple cigars on single sites.

The older stuff seemed to be MSRP from the time it was released.
So - do I use a 3% model or 5%? Do I compound?
Is that for age...or age and rarity?

I'm not trying to be a jerk <it's natural> ....just trying to figure out the age/rarity issue.


8 Avo LE05 $12
9 Avo 22 $13
20 Trinidad Fundadores (2000) 13.50
27 FFOX SerieX X Square (X2) (from '05 Opus22 set) $34
31 Boris 11 (p: Hapalee) $13
37 Montecristo D EL 2005 (p:Ginseng) $16
42 Hoyo de Monterey Belicoso EL 2003 (p:tone-ny) $15
43 H. Upmann Mag50 EL 2005 (p:tone-ny) $16
P: Por Larranga Lonsdale 1997 or 98 (There ya go, Gary!) $15
 
grateful1 said:
OK - this is what I found out for MSRP. Most prices are based on a couple site averages. I only found a couple cigars on single sites.

The older stuff seemed to be MSRP from the time it was released.
So - do I use a 3% model or 5%? Do I compound?
Is that for age...or age and rarity?

I'm not trying to be a jerk <it's natural> ....just trying to figure out the age/rarity issue.

37 Montecristo D EL 2005 (p:Ginseng) $16
42 Hoyo de Monterey Belicoso EL 2003 (p:tone-ny) $15
43 H. Upmann Mag50 EL 2005 (p:tone-ny) $16
P: Por Larranga Lonsdale 1997 or 98 (There ya go, Gary!) $15
Click to expand...
Personally, compounding is usually more work than it is worth. And that formula is usually for age of ISOMs. Rarity is really subjective and I don't know how to place a value on it; you usually try to match rarity with rarity. So a cigar that was only in production for one year 5 years ago is more rare than a cigar that is still in production today but 5 years old. These are just guides, not hard and fast rules. Err on the hosts side, and you'll probably be OK.

My best guesses:
#37 probably $16
#42 probably $23 (as referenced previously)
#43 probably $20

If you can find #42 for $15, please hook a brother up!! :D
Hope that helps.
 
Blue Dragon said:
If you can find #42 for $15, please hook a brother up!! :D
Hope that helps.
Click to expand...



LMAO - yea...that was the MSRP price I found. It is definatly worth more - let's see what I can trade for that... :D .

Thanks for all the help guys.




<edit - spacing>
 
Hey everybody, I just got back online after the holiday (Yon Kippur).
Cohiba--I know you weren't calling me a scumbag 100%.
I just want to make sure, that if listed differently (as posted above) my P&T's are OK?
I will absolutely say that I did put more value on the extra 2 years of age. I also (caution blaspheme coming up) like the 99 churchills better than any SW I've smoked. I do, however, recognize that this is NOT the prevailing opinion. Having not had a SW in some time, though, I figured this was the time to try one out again.

Thanks everybody for a wonderful, informative and civil discussion of both value and how a pass should run!
 
I'll also add, regarding the pricing, that #27 might be tricky. The Opus 22 set msrp is $750. However, I'm not entirely sure it's fair to just divide $750 by 22, since 1/3 of those cigars are regular production cigars that just happen to be in a special box. The other 2/3's of them are rare, non-regular production sizes, such as the X2, Chili Pepper, LBMF, BBMF, Shark and the Double Robusto. So it might be fair to say that these special cigars might hold slightly higher value than the other ones.


Does anyone else agree with this, or has the precedent already been set that all cigars in that set are worth $34?
 
Very interesting posts.

The problem is that there are many variables with no cut and dry
rule. For example. HTF exchange for HTF, both have equal MSRP, or
rather, had equal MSRP at one point in time. The one HTF is very
rare and much harder to find. Does this equate to equal value. From
what I have read, some think it does!

Brian
 
My mantra:

Always leave the pass in better shape then when you received the pass.
 
Just to put the info out there:
Gary and I (because of my crappy schedule, not his fault) are not going to be able to meet up until Thursday evening. This represents about a one to two day delay from what would have been the approximate shipping date if this had all gone as planned. If people would rather skip me entirely to get it back on track, I would not have any issues with that. (Obviously, my P&T's would be null and void). If there are no major concerns with this schedule, let us all know, and we'll get it out Friday morning.
 
smokelaw1 said:
Just to put the info out there:
Gary and I (because of my crappy schedule, not his fault) are not going to be able to meet up until Thursday evening. This represents about a one to two day delay from what would have been the approximate shipping date if this had all gone as planned. If people would rather skip me entirely to get it back on track, I would not have any issues with that. (Obviously, my P&T's would be null and void). If there are no major concerns with this schedule, let us all know, and we'll get it out Friday morning.
Click to expand...


No Quams here. :thumbs:
 
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