Passes of late

mmburtch

Sleep deprived and cranky
Joined
Oct 11, 2006
Messages
4,873
Well it got here! I'll do the inventory and propose p/ts to Phil.

The inventory checks. Some very nice cigars, I'll get this sorted out by tomorrow evening the latest.

Okay Phil here are my proposed puts and takes

Take:


5. AVO LE07
6. AVO LE08

Puts:

92. 2005 Toast Across America set Opus X and DCM (This must be taken as a set)
93. Padron Millennium
94. Trinidad Ingenios EL 2007

Let me know how and I'll get this out tomorrow night.

Phil thanks for letting me play, yet again.
Anthony, let me start by saying what a generous trade this is on your part. I have no difficulty believing based on what I know about you that this was done purely as a gift to Phil.


From here on I am speaking to the community, not Anthony.


That being said, I disagree with the move. There has been a real tendency in the last year or two toward "unequal" puts. I'm not talking fifty cents here, a dollar there, but $5 plus bumps. I'm not sure where the root cause lays, generosity, too lazy to find an equal put, trying to look good or too greedy to leave a cigar behind that they do not have an appropriate put for. I have the same feeling about two, three or more extra cigars being put into a pass along with the other puts.

Whatever the cause I feel that this sets a bad precedent. Passes are an integral part of this community, and watched by FOGs, Newbs and lurkers alike. It should never be the intent of a pass, to get back better than you start with, but of late, that is simply a forgone conclusion.

If passers are feeling generous (never happens around here :whistling: ) then the old fashion Host bag is the way it should be handled. Host gifts need not be anonymous, but should be transparent in the forum. Nobody should feel obliged to add to a host bag.

We're a self policing community, and passes are policed by all the members of the pass as well as anyone in the community who sees a problem. Unequal trades in the trader's favor are quickly pointed out and corrected, but we seem to have become accustomed to allowing perhaps even expecting to see trades heavy on the put side. Shouldn't somebody be saying something in that case as well?

In the interest of full disclosure, I am guilty of all of the above. I'm recently however starting to realize that I have been swept up in a cultural movement that I do not agree with, and intend to "do better" in the future.

My opinions, for what they're worth.
 

moki

el Presidente
Joined
Dec 16, 2003
Messages
9,414
Something to keep in mind... "overputs" aren't necessarily just for the host... they also can be for other participants in the pass. Although assuming that subsequent puts/takes are par value, sure, the host ends up benefitting.

I think it's reasonable to assume that if someone "overputs", they are doing it knowing that they are overputting. They likely know the host, or know other people in the pass, and are good with them benefitting. Consider it a "pass bomb" if you will.

As long as it is done for the right reasons, and with full knowledge, I guess I don't see the harm in it.
 

Swissy

R.I.P. big guy.... see you over the bridge
Joined
Mar 26, 2005
Messages
4,609
I agree for the most part with Moki. I also think it depends heavily on who's pass it is, and who is IN the pass. Some guys I just expect the puts to be outrageous... but not that they are supposed to or so on. Just some guys are that way.

But not all passes should have wild puts in them. New member passes and so on should be more structured and follow the 'letter of the law' might tightly. Then, once a member has been here for awhile, and been in a few more passes... well, it's up to THEM to wildly overput or not. But it should NOT be expected of anyone... but outlawed or frowned upon? no way... if someone wants to be super generous, no one should tell them they cannot. It should be up to the pass host to make that rule, post it and enforce it.

edit to add: in my own passes, I specify that no host bag is to be allowed... that way the 'over puts' are in the open, and available for anyone to grab before it comes home.
 

insight

Making friends everywhere!
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Messages
8,069
Since my pass is referenced here as an example I feel I should reply. The very next post in that thread suggested Anthony take more sticks and I wish you had included it here, since it is pretty much what you are suggesting here to the best of my understanding. I don't think you are targeting my pass in this debate but since you chose that post as your example I wish you had also quoted the proceeding post which actually addresses to some degree exactly what you are calling to light here. Also since this pass is one of the few where I have seen overputs actively vetoed it seems an odd choice but I really believe it just happened to be the arbitrary example that caught your eye and that is why you used it in your example. My experience in summary is this: you cannot *make* people be less generous and some people actually take offense if you try.

I think Andrew is on the money with his post and both he and Jim have summarized my opinions very well. As a caveat I would say that as a pass host, when people are overly generous I feel it is my obligation, pleasure and privilege to pay it forward as best I can. Sometimes that is in the form of a contest for the participants, sometimes by my own behavior in the passes my CP friends are hosting and sometimes by doing the various other things we do on CP to show our bond and appreciation for others in this community. Just my 2c on the subject
 

BigJake6904

Fat Texan
Joined
Dec 31, 2007
Messages
4,403
I feel it depends on the pass nature, and more importantly the participants. I seriously doubt you would see a Millennium as a Put in a Newbie Pass, and for many reasons, most pretty obvious.

Looking at the member list for Phil's pass...I don't see a name that I wouldn't trust and I'm sure many others could say the same. Not to mention practically all the participants could at a minimum be considered "seasoned" members...this ain't their first rodeo. In reality everyone in that pass could probably trade in rarity/ value for the millennium, at least to some degree...so beefing up the past for the host, I can't really agree is the intended purpose.

Overputs are undoubtedly more common in passes with experienced members, as opposed to newbie passes. As Swissy pointed out, I think it depends on WHO is in the pass. I whole heartedly have to agree with Phil on the pass it forward part. Often times passes have contests where the host will give even more of themselves than just running and organizing the pass. Often, as Phil pointed out, contests are run that also have prizes...and usually from the Host's own pocket. If the host gives more....why should the passers be condoned for it? Both actions are representative of the nature of CP, though neither are required.

I'm sure you were right about the root being "generosity" as I highly doubt that he gave up a millennium to "look good," and I doubt it was because he was too lazy.

Whatever the cause I feel that this sets a bad precedent. Passes are an integral part of this community, and watched by FOGs, Newbs and lurkers alike. It should never be the intent of a pass, to get back better than you start with, but of late, that is simply a forgone conclusion.
I can't say that I have ever seen a pass where the intent of the host was to receive more than they started with. If this was ever the case, I highly doubt there would be any participants...that is undoubtedly one of the reasons why there are more stringent rules to starting a pass than participating. I don't think that others giving of themselves should be taken negatively...and I don't think it's fair to the host to point a finger at profiteering because someone in the pass put something extra in it.

As it's been pointed out, it's not a requirement to put in extra, nor to overput, for some members it's customary as a "thank you," not only to the host...but to the pass as a whole. A gift to the host would be in a hostbag or in a bomb. If a passer wants to give more to the pass then why not? Even though it's not expected and certainly not required, the selfless spirit of giving of oneself will forever be a part of the CP community, and giving it a negative connotation isn't fair to those who do it for the right reasons.

Just my .02
 

Marco-Polo

Go Irish Go!
Joined
Feb 24, 2008
Messages
724
First, let me make clear that I don't have a dog in this fight.

Second, overshooting the mark creates a ratchet effect, where every subsequent put on that place in the trade will be either at par or higher. In the case of newbie passes (like Jonesy's GYFW passes, where I'm participating), especially longer newbie passes where there will be several puts in any given place, this can price participants out of the market.

I totally agree that it's more acceptable where participants are older/more experienced/have bigger humidors, and perhaps we should advise passers to keep the length of the pass, and their position in the pass, in mind.

Arguing against an outright prohibition, we can state core principles (such as equity, embodied as one for one and like for like) but like most things on CP it's a matter of personal integrity. If you wish to pass on a cigar you really like to the host or another participant, then the intent matters more than the gap. I wouldn't assume that an overshoot has any other goal. (And if it does, that'll come out in the end, too.)

The underlying goal of any rule is to leave the trade/pass/board/community as a whole better than you found it, and I think that CP does that better than most.
 

tone-ny

I smoke therefore I am!
Joined
Nov 24, 2004
Messages
12,044
This is my take, since sometimes I am limited by time. It is easier for me to make cigars available to others that they wouldn't necessarily be able to purchase outright.

While yes, I would like the host to get one of those cigars. It is by no means specifically for him. The others in the pass have every right to make a selection. My purpose for adding these cigars is the universal one. Sharing what I have been able to amass with others as this is what this place is all about. I've been very fortunate to have had others on Cigar Pass do this to me and in the spirit of PIF, that is what I do. I can only speak for myself on this subject.

In every pass I have been in I have put in some special cigars and did it on Gonz's pass. I guess no one looked at those puts in that pass? Andrew stated it better than I have, but you get the drift. I'm sorry if I play by a different set of rules, but then again you don't have to invite me to your passes ;)
 

CigarStone

For once, knowledge is making me poor!
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
3,634
I see Matt's point here on a couple levels, but alas, I too have no dog in this fight.

1. I can see some newbies getting the idea that starting a pass is a good way to get rich.

2. With the generosity that abounds here, is it possible for the one-upmanship to get out of hand?
 

tone-ny

I smoke therefore I am!
Joined
Nov 24, 2004
Messages
12,044
I see Matt's point here on a couple levels, but alas, I too have no dog in this fight.

1. I can see some newbies getting the idea that starting a pass is a good way to get rich.

2. With the generosity that abounds here, is it possible for the one-upmanship to get out of hand?

1. Would I join a newbie pass? I think the established members know what this is all about. You'd be surprised how many people keep tabs on passes.

2. Has it? Not really if you look on the four most recent passes by established members( 2 years or more here) there has been no one up-manship.
 

CigarStone

For once, knowledge is making me poor!
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
3,634
I see Matt's point here on a couple levels, but alas, I too have no dog in this fight.

1. I can see some newbies getting the idea that starting a pass is a good way to get rich.

2. With the generosity that abounds here, is it possible for the one-upmanship to get out of hand?

1. Would I join a newbie pass? I think the established members know what this is all about. You'd be surprised how many people keep tabs on passes.

2. Has it? Not really if you look on the four most recent passes by established members( 2 years or more here) there has been no one up-manship.
I stand corrected.......Is should have known you FOGGY bastids had it all under control :thumbs:
 

Marco-Polo

Go Irish Go!
Joined
Feb 24, 2008
Messages
724
1. I can see some newbies getting the idea that starting a pass is a good way to get rich.
I'd think that the 9-month, 3 pass rule keeps newbies from starting a pass; by the time you're eligible to start one, you're no longer a newbie . If you're willing to devote that much time and effort, building up a rep, doing passes and trades, in the hope of ending up a few sticks extra .... well, you must be in interesting circumstances if your time's worth 3 cents an hour.

Come to think of it, my time's not even worth 3 cents an hour until Monday. :)
 

NullSmurf

Das Bruce
Joined
Jan 18, 2006
Messages
7,851
First, you ALL have a dog in this hunt, since Matt brought it to the community level to discuss. And, I think Matt's point has merit. Tony and Moki also make some good points.

I rarely take part in passes, in large part because I don't have inventory to "keep up". Were I to start one, one of my rules would definitely be puts equal takes, give or take a reasonable percentage. All my Brothers here are generous to a fault. I can't compete and it sometimes intimidates me.
 

sonuvabum

Boobies...'cause I likes 'em
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
1,798
I agree with Bruce here.

You have to delve into the reasons and motivations behind the overputs to determine if they are problematic or not. Tough thing to do.

For me, one of my concerns is I would never want a brother to cast a downward glance in my direction because I didn't include an extra bump of some kind in a pass when everyone else did.

It's definitely a slippery slope.

G
 

SiriusBlack

Always make it look easy...
Joined
Nov 17, 2007
Messages
932
I see Matt's point here on a couple levels, but alas, I too have no dog in this fight.

1. I can see some newbies getting the idea that starting a pass is a good way to get rich.
Speaking as a newbie, my concern is just the opposite. I am not looking to get rich off a pass. When I see what other guys are adding to a pass sometimes I wonder if I can hang with the big dogs. :( Do I need to stuff my humidor with some HTF's just so that I know when the pass reaches me I can put something of interest in it that will be respected by the rest of the group. So in all honestly that's why I have been doing more pass watching than joining just so I can see what the true norms are. That said I have been invited to join the BOTL in Arms pass and have excepted. As a newbie I am not in a position to put some of the items that others have done in other passes but i will certainly make sure I add equal or greater puts for what I take.

For me, one of my concerns is I would never want a brother to cast a downward glance in my direction because I didn't include an extra bump of some kind in a pass when everyone else did.

G
You said it much better than I did...
 

stevehawk

'Member? C'mon you 'member!
Joined
Nov 12, 2004
Messages
4,107
Within reason, puts should equal takes.

This should be true whether it's an established member starting a pass or a newer member starting a pass. We should not have two standards, which could lead to a "do what I say, not what I do" system.

There is nothing wrong with being generous (most here are) and Anthony falls firmly into this category. I've seen his generosity time and time again here on CP. However, I would suggest that a pass is not the best method for showing that generosity, as it could be viewed as "one upmanship" or "look at me". If you want to be generous in a pass there are acceptable methods of doing so without making outrageous puts. You can start a host bag or send the host a separate bomb.

This has been discussed a few times since I have been here. This thread, which is "stickied" in the Pass Forum, discusses this issue well: Link
 

grateful1

Oh My!
Joined
Feb 6, 2006
Messages
19,105
Anthony, let me start by saying what a generous trade this is on your part. I have no difficulty believing based on what I know about you that this was done purely as a gift to Phil.


From here on I am speaking to the community, not Anthony.


That being said, I disagree with the move. There has been a real tendency in the last year or two toward "unequal" puts. I'm not talking fifty cents here, a dollar there, but $5 plus bumps. I'm not sure where the root cause lays, generosity, too lazy to find an equal put, trying to look good or too greedy to leave a cigar behind that they do not have an appropriate put for. I have the same feeling about two, three or more extra cigars being put into a pass along with the other puts.

Whatever the cause I feel that this sets a bad precedent. Passes are an integral part of this community, and watched by FOGs, Newbs and lurkers alike. It should never be the intent of a pass, to get back better than you start with, but of late, that is simply a forgone conclusion. By whom?

If passers are feeling generous (never happens around here :whistling: ) then the old fashion Host bag is the way it should be handled. Host gifts need not be anonymous, but should be transparent in the forum. Nobody should feel obliged to add to a host bag. Yet you see it in the box when you get the pass - subtle eh.

We're a self policing community, and passes are policed by all the members of the pass as well as anyone in the community who sees a problem. Unequal trades in the trader's favor are quickly pointed out and corrected, but we seem to have become accustomed to allowing perhaps even expecting to see trades heavy on the put side. Shouldn't somebody be saying something in that case as well? Who says people have not? In one of my first passes I was warned of putting in a 'lot more than needed'. To date, I have pm'd a few folks about the same thing. The issue of having the host approve the P/T's may be more of a concern! :D

In the interest of full disclosure, I am guilty of all of the above. I'm recently however starting to realize that I have been swept up in a cultural movement that I do not agree with, and intend to "do better" in the future.

My opinions, for what they're worth.
Thanks for the note.

I think there are some pass guidelines and/or linky's around here about this...I'll take a look! Shawk found one! :blush:

:thumbs:
 

Gonz

Ultra Runner
Joined
Mar 18, 2005
Messages
4,814
Part of anyone's decision making process before they join a pass I believe absolutely needs to include whether or not they have the cigars to play. The thought of the pass getting to you and you no longer have the cigars to be able to make any plays should be irrelevant because if that's the case you never should have joined that pass in the first place.

As a pass host I ask that participants read and adhere to the "Equal puts and takes" thread that is pinned at the top of the Open Passes room, which by the way I think already addresses much of this entire thread.
 

tone-ny

I smoke therefore I am!
Joined
Nov 24, 2004
Messages
12,044
My name keeps on popping up, which is not cool by any stretch of the imagination!

If you don't like my plays tough! :angry:

I'll be taking a break for a while so don't bother me with your BS as I could care less.
 
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