Fake Davidoff and Dunhills sold on CP

[Gonz]

AB hasn't been added yet, Bruce and Chibnkr were added over the weekend.

Why hasn't "AB" been added yet? Just wondering.

Thanks for your input, Van, however infrequent.

The fact is he didn't know anything about these cigars other than the collector from whom he bought them (and now all of us regarding the low temperature, low humidity storage conditions).

Believe what you may, but AB wasn't a perpetrator of anything nefarious. Just a collector who had to move most of cigars due to the recession and I'll stand by any reputation that I have here at CP regarding this topic

Does anyone have, or can this character produce some proof that the bulk of the cigars he happened to unload due to financial circumstances are not these fakes? Or more precisely, what percentage of this guy's recent sales were of fake cigars vs. authentic ones?

 

[moki]

Pretty Much Bruce, but I doubt that is going to happen.

If I bought something from Allen in the sale that Tim fronted... I'd expect a refund from the person I bought them from. Allen, in this case.

If Allen then has to take up the issues with whomever he purchased them from (Bruce, in this case), that's his problem to deal with, imo.

I don't think it is fair, or makes sense, for people to be approaching Bruce for refunds for cigars they didn't purchase from him. He'd have no way of knowing which of these cigars were actually his.

Still hoping Allen's contact info gets posted, so people can pursue attempting to get a refund.

 

[Yeahthatsme]

It seems like Allen bought these cigars from Bruce for his personal collection, and then sold them off when he fell on hard times. If that is the case, then in my opinion Allen should be on the hook for refunds in this case.

 

[moki]

It seems like Allen bought these cigars from Bruce for his personal collection, and then sold them off when he fell on hard times. If that is the case, then in my opinion Allen should be on the hook for refunds in this case.

Agree 100% -- and then he should pursue Bruce for a refund from him.

Asking people who bought these cigars to get a refund from Bruce, when the cigars were bought from Allen, is unfair both to the people who bough the cigars, and also Bruce, imo.

 

[Strayvector]

If I bought something from Allen in the sale that Tim fronted... I'd expect a refund from the person I bought them from. Allen, in this case.

If Allen then has to take up the issues with whomever he purchased them from (Bruce, in this case), that's his problem to deal with, imo.

I don't think it is fair, or makes sense, for people to be approaching Bruce for refunds for cigars they didn't purchase from him. He'd have no way of knowing which of these cigars were actually his.

Still hoping Allen's contact info gets posted, so people can pursue attempting to get a refund.

I still don't understand the reticence from Tim on sharing Allen's contact. Since he fronted the sale and doesn't want to share that info, I think it's more than appropriate that you and others approach him for refunds.

 

[BigJake6904]

Agree 100% -- and then he should pursue Bruce for a refund from him.

Asking people who bought these cigars to get a refund from Bruce, when the cigars were bought from Allen, is unfair both to the people who bough the cigars, and also Bruce, imo.

Actually, those that bought the cigars were buying them from Tim, and asking them to go hunt down a 3rd party which they didn't directly deal with is unfair to them.

I feel, especially since Tim considered Allen a "Friend," that Tim is responsible to the members of the CP community, and it's his job to get repaid by Allen.

Tim offered the cigars to CP, Tim brokered the deal to CP, Tim is responsible to CP members. If I brokered a sale for a "friend," (which I never would) when that sale goes south, my ass is on the line. Simply saying "go around Jake and get your refund from his friend" is finding a back door to how things are done here.

 

[Wurm]

So the person who used the counterfeit bill they got from the bank goes to jail, but the counterfeiter who owns the bank walks free.

Sounds reasonable to me.

 

[Strayvector]

So the person who used the counterfeit bill they got from the bank goes to jail, but the counterfeiter who owns the bank walks free.

Sounds reasonable to me.

...if the person using the counterfeit bill won't disclose the bank's information.

 

[DePasta]

Actually, I didn't send my money to Tim or AB. I was part of a group buy....is that person responsible for my refund if I hadn't already smoked mine?
I knew all along that Tim was not the one selling the cigars.

 

[Yeahthatsme]

Ok, here's the chain of responsibility as I see it:

People who paid Tim should seek refunds from him. Tim should seek refunds from Allen. Allen should seek refunds from Bruce.


The order of the refunds is entirely dependent on the character of lowest member of the chain. It's easy to say it, from the outside looking in, but if I brokered this deal I would do whatever I could to make it right, even if it came out of my pocket. Heck, even Spivy made good(eventually). If you can't afford to cover a deal that goes bad, you can't afford to make a deal in the first place.

 

[siriusstoogie]

Ok, here's the chain of responsibility as I see it:

People who paid Tim should seek refunds from him. Tim should seek refunds from Allen. Allen should seek refunds from Bruce.


The order of the refunds is entirely dependent on the character of lowest member of the chain. It's easy to say it, from the outside looking in, but if I brokered this deal I would do whatever I could to make it right, even if it came out of my pocket. Heck, even Spivy made good(eventually). If you can't afford to cover a deal that goes bad, you can't afford to make a deal in the first place.

Makes sense but it's going to be hard to execute.

 

[miamipadronsmoker]

There will never be any refunds. The middle men all claim the cigars are real. The end buyers will be left holding the bag. It's just another expensive learning experience. Maybe this time it will stick.

 

[bfisher88]

There will never be any refunds. The middle men all claim the cigars are real. The end buyers will be left holding the bag. It's just another expensive learning experience. Maybe this time it will stick.

Exactly. I highly doubt there will be any sort of refund at all from anyone, so it is hardly debatable who owes who.

 

[dagoR6]

It seems like Allen bought these cigars from Bruce for his personal collection, and then sold them off when he fell on hard times. If that is the case, then in my opinion Allen should be on the hook for refunds in this case.

Agreed, but it seems unbelievable to me that an experienced collector, prone to buying 30-50K plus worth of cigars at a time, didn't know they were questionable when he unloaded the whole lot of them through a 1-2 day sale.

Common sense would be that "fell on hard times", often goes along with questionable behavior in the first place.

 

[BigJake6904]

So the person who used the counterfeit bill they got from the bank goes to jail, but the counterfeiter who owns the bank walks free.

Sounds reasonable to me.

This isn't a bank Shawn, this is Cigar Pass. We don't skirt how things are done here because of someone's reputation, good or bad.


This sums up the whole thread for me:

"If you can't afford to cover a deal that goes bad, you can't afford to make a deal in the first place."

ETA: It's always been the practice that the one brokering or bringing the "deal" or hosting the GB is held accountable. I don't see how this is different than any other time. More money or not, it's principle.

 

[Jonesy]

So the person who used the counterfeit bill they got from the bank goes to jail, but the counterfeiter who owns the bank walks free.

Sounds reasonable to me.

So, if you were in Tim's shoes Shawn, what would you do? Would you play the "I got taken too so it's not my problem" card also? He brokered the deal, he collected the money, he vouched for this guy by putting up a sale for him on Cigar Pass. There should be no question whatsoever as to who the first person in the responsibility line should be! I don't understand how there is any discussion about this at all.

If I had bought two of the cigars from this sale, still had them in my humi in the same shape I received them in, read these threads and wanted a refund, I would contact Tim because he's the one who posted the sale and took my money. I could care less if he got taken, it's his responsibility to make it right with me. It's his responsibility to go to Allen and say, "look, I had to give a refund for those cigars you sold, I need to be reimbursed". If he doesn't get anything from him, that's his problem for vouching for him and selling the cigars for him.

If I sold some cigars for a "friend" and the transaction went south because the buyer wasn't satified, would you guys pipe up and say, "it's not Brian's fault, you need to get your refund from his friend."? HELL NO! I would get my ass taken behind the tool shed until I MYSELF fixed this problem and made the transaction good. We all know there won't be any refunds given...ever. My post has nothing to do with that fact. It has everything to do with who is ultimately responsible and should be first in line to answer any questions about this.

 

[moki]

There will never be any refunds. The middle men all claim the cigars are real. The end buyers will be left holding the bag. It's just another expensive learning experience. Maybe this time it will stick.

As far as I'm aware, no one has claimed that these cigars are real. Bruce is the only one who said anything in public, and all that he said was that no one has had a problem with his cigars, and that taste is subjective (paraphrased).

 

[BlindedByScience]

So, if you were in Tim's shoes Shawn, what would you do? Would you play the "I got taken too so it's not my problem" card also? He brokered the deal, he collected the money, he vouched for this guy by putting up a sale for him on Cigar Pass. There should be no question whatsoever as to who the first person in the responsibility line should be! I don't understand how there is any discussion about this at all.

If I had bought two of the cigars from this sale, still had them in my humi in the same shape I received them in, read these threads and wanted a refund, I would contact Tim because he's the one who posted the sale and took my money. I could care less if he got taken, it's his responsibility to make it right with me. It's his responsibility to go to Allen and say, "look, I had to give a refund for those cigars you sold, I need to be reimbursed". If he doesn't get anything from him, that's his problem for vouching for him and selling the cigars for him.

If I sold some cigars for a "friend" and the transaction went south because the buyer wasn't satified, would you guys pipe up and say, "it's not Brian's fault, you need to get your refund from his friend."? HELL NO! I would get my ass taken behind the tool shed until I MYSELF fixed this problem and made the transaction good. We all know there won't be any refunds given...ever. My post has nothing to do with that fact. It has everything to do with who is ultimately responsible and should be first in line to answer any questions about this.

....this. Well said. I don't have a dog in this fight, but I don't see why there is any question about this.

 

[Wurm]

To be honest I'm burnt out on the whole subject.

I said a few pages back Tim needs to post the guy's, he brokered the sale for, information.

And I'm going to leave it at that.

 

[Jonesy]

To be honest I'm burnt out on the whole subject.

I said a few pages back Tim needs to post the guy's, he brokered the sale for, information.

And I'm going to leave it at that.

I believe that a lot of people are getting burnt out on this subject.

You really can't expect to not get responses after your post using the "counterfeit" example. Especially when you threw in the "sounds reasonable to me" at the end that changed the whole complex of your post and the way people look at it.

Like Doc stated earlier, the loyalty you've shown to Tim is admirable, but no matter what the argument or examples given are, Tim is still first in line as far as responsibility goes on this board for these transactions.