• Hi Guest - Come check out all of the new CP Merch Shop! Now you can support CigarPass buy purchasing hats, apparel, and more...
    Click here to visit! here...

I'm glad I knew better

Good for you Wkoti. Your neuticles are much larger than mine. I have dealt with profs and chefs and I can't imagine what happens when those two forces combine (Some profs and some chefs have huge egos. Not all by any means.). Keep us updated as to what the response is from the letter.

And don't rule denvercigarguy out. Our basement flooded a couple years ago and plume, just like the plume in wkoti's first pic, started to grow on our dry wall in less than 3 days! It looked horrible so we had to have someone come and rip out the dry wall and the carpet. Darn PLUME! :sign:
 
Hello to all who are following this discussion. My name is Patrick and I work at Capitol Cigars. First I want to apologize for the behavior of that particular employee, and I am glad you attempted to bring it to our attention. This matter was just now brought to my attention and I can tell you all that the kind of behavior reportedly displayed by this employee is in no way how we intend our valued customers to be treated. I don't know the whole story, but I can tell you all that we will investigate this further and that this employee will be made to understand that this type of behavior will not be tolerated. I am sorry, wkoti, that you had to endure the treatment you were given. We strive to create an inviting and friendly atmosphere, so this situation is definitely outside the norm. Please come in to our store and speak with either myself, or the other Patrick that works here and we can discuss this matter further.
I would also like to respond to the "mold" issue. I have been on the supply side of the premium cigar industry for 9 years and have had the good fortune to learn from some of the true masters in the production, care, and enjoyment of cigars. While it is possible that the cigars in question may have had mold growing on them, it is more likely that these cigars did, in fact, have plume forming on them. It has been my experience that mold and plume can be nearly indistinguishable from each other, even under close inspection with a magnifying glass. However, one way to be 100% sure you have plume and not mold is to carefully (so as not to damage the cigar) wipe the substance in question from the surface of the cigar - if it wipes away cleanly and leaves no trace behind it is plume; if it leaves a pit behind it is mold. Mold feeds off the tobacco, so it extends "roots" into the leaf, which is what leaves the telltale pit behind when it's wiped away. Plume forms harmlessly on the surface of the tobacco, so it of course leaves no damage behind when you wipe it off. It's been my experience that the method I just described is the ONLY sure way to determine if you have plume versus mold.
When I heard about this issue, the first thing I did was go into the humidor to see if I could locate the offending cigars. Now, I am not entirely sure I had the same cigars because the Rocky Patel Edge Toros I looked at (we don't have Churchills) were not located near the humidifier as was indicated in one of the posts. These Toros, however, also had a substance on them that one might think was mold. Upon close inspection, however, I determined that substance was in fact plume. I'm not saying that the cigars that started this whole mess were not moldy, but I can assure everyone that we monitor our cigars closely and if we were to find mold we would remove those cigars promptly and increase our diligence to make sure no other cigars develop the same problem. We would never try to sell moldy cigars by convincing our customers they have plume. We have not had a mold issue in our humidor and, as I said, work diligently to prevent it.
Contrary to what many believe, plume can form quite rapidly. Given the right combination of environment, some tobaccos will plume in a matter of months, if not weeks. I have seen cigars come from a box that just been shipped from the manufacturer
with a significant amount of plume already formed on them. So it's not impossible that these cigars could have been pluming despite being boxed in November of 2009. One thing you haven't considered is that those cigars likely aged on a shelf in the factory for several months before being boxed. It's not the boxing date that's crucial here, it's the date the cigars were actually made.
Nonetheless, the issue was poorly handled by this particular employee and for that I am truly sorry! The main reason we welcome your cigar club to our store is the fact that many of you are new to this wonderful world of smoking fine cigars and the reason you were coming to us was to learn more about it. It is unconscionable to us that one of us would disparage one of your group for lack of experience. In fact, we have looked forward to and enjoyed having you all in the store and hoped to further our relationship. My hope is that this isolated incident will not sour that relationship. Come back to the store when you have the time and we will resolve this situation. It sounds as if it's already been blown way out of proportion already, but this by no means represents what we are about here at Capitol.


Unless you are the owner or have his ok to speak for the shop, please let him know about this thread and what is going on.
 
If you guys have been smoking and collecting cigars for so long, then you should all know there are NO ABSOLUTES when it comes to cigars. This means ALL of us have different experiences when it comes to storing cigars. What makes the plume vs. mold debate so volatile is that there are so many variables about what plume is, what causes it, and how long it takes to form. It would be wise to consider that before you post a disparaging comment on someone's personal experience. All I can say is, I have seen plume form on cigars in a matter of several weeks (or we could use 2 or 3 months if that is more amenable to you guys). To be more specific, that plume has re-formed on the cigars after the initial formation had been wiped off. (And before you guys all comment on that, we wipe it off for this exact reason: that it is commonly mistaken as mold). As I also said in my posting, I have opened a new box of cigars just shipped from the manufacturer that have had plume on them. These are all personal experiences, so say what you want; I know what I know.
Nonetheless, I find it ironic and tragic that the very thing that started this whole debacle, namely someone who has more experience with cigars demeaning someone they perceive as being less knowledgeable, is exactly what I am getting in response to my posting. We are all people who love cigars. If we can't get along, or at the least be respectful of and civil with each other, how can we expect to withstand the onslaught of the anti-tobacco zealots who are trying to take cigars away from us?
 
Denvercigar guy, I suspect I've been smoking and collecting cigars longer than you've been alive. I can assure you and my friends here that you're full of shit.

Doc.

Well, I'd have to say that, as usual, Doc nailed it.
 
If you guys have been smoking and collecting cigars for so long, then you should all know there are NO ABSOLUTES when it comes to cigars. This means ALL of us have different experiences when it comes to storing cigars. What makes the plume vs. mold debate so volatile is that there are so many variables about what plume is, what causes it, and how long it takes to form. It would be wise to consider that before you post a disparaging comment on someone's personal experience. All I can say is, I have seen plume form on cigars in a matter of several weeks (or we could use 2 or 3 months if that is more amenable to you guys). To be more specific, that plume has re-formed on the cigars after the initial formation had been wiped off. (And before you guys all comment on that, we wipe it off for this exact reason: that it is commonly mistaken as mold). As I also said in my posting, I have opened a new box of cigars just shipped from the manufacturer that have had plume on them. These are all personal experiences, so say what you want; I know what I know.
Nonetheless, I find it ironic and tragic that the very thing that started this whole debacle, namely someone who has more experience with cigars demeaning someone they perceive as being less knowledgeable, is exactly what I am getting in response to my posting. We are all people who love cigars. If we can't get along, or at the least be respectful of and civil with each other, how can we expect to withstand the onslaught of the anti-tobacco zealots who are trying to take cigars away from us?

Patrick- a couple things. I think the real topic here was taking care of BOTL at your shop where from the interaction he described with a staff member was less than palatable. The mold/plume debate will rage for as long as people smoke cigars and I think it would be wise to let that portion drop. I think it is admirable that you came in and are trying to make this right with Wkoti.

Grateful1 makes a great point below. I'd hate to see this flame out and affect someones job prospects.

I hope you'll stick around after this and see what CP is truly all about. I'm amazed every day by the quality and hospitality of our membership.

Cheers,

R
 
Denvercigar guy, I suspect I've been smoking and collecting cigars longer than you've been alive. I can assure you and my friends here that you're full of shit.

Doc.

Well, I'd have to say that, as usual, Doc nailed it.

Monk,
I thought this guy was just in denial at first and that Doc was being a little harsh toward him.

I'm so glad I kept my mouth shut.
 
Hey everyone....Honestly, he's right about the fine line between mold and plume. My collection has so much plume, that its starting to spread all over the house. JEALOUS??!!
photo2.jpg
 
If you guys have been smoking and collecting cigars for so long, then you should all know there are NO ABSOLUTES when it comes to cigars. This means ALL of us have different experiences when it comes to storing cigars. What makes the plume vs. mold debate so volatile is that there are so many variables about what plume is, what causes it, and how long it takes to form. It would be wise to consider that before you post a disparaging comment on someone's personal experience. All I can say is, I have seen plume form on cigars in a matter of several weeks (or we could use 2 or 3 months if that is more amenable to you guys). To be more specific, that plume has re-formed on the cigars after the initial formation had been wiped off. (And before you guys all comment on that, we wipe it off for this exact reason: that it is commonly mistaken as mold). As I also said in my posting, I have opened a new box of cigars just shipped from the manufacturer that have had plume on them. These are all personal experiences, so say what you want; I know what I know.
Nonetheless, I find it ironic and tragic that the very thing that started this whole debacle, namely someone who has more experience with cigars demeaning someone they perceive as being less knowledgeable, is exactly what I am getting in response to my posting. We are all people who love cigars. If we can't get along, or at the least be respectful of and civil with each other, how can we expect to withstand the onslaught of the anti-tobacco zealots who are trying to take cigars away from us?

Dr. Sims calls shenanigins on this (just talked about myself in third person creepy). The question of mold versus plume is easy and boils down to does it grow? All accounts I have heard of plume describe it as crystaline oils of the cigar and therefore will not grow if transfered to media; however, mold grows like a beast on the appropriate media. So, if you simply take some debated substance and place it on Potato Dextrose Agar and it grows you can be assured it is mold. You could go so far as isolate the DNA and do some 16s rRNA sequencing and find exactly which mold it is. Now all this info would run about $50 but just the mold test would only be a few bucks. It is also noteworthy that getting molecules to crystallize is a non-trivial process. Granted you get lucky every now and then, but I would make an educated guess that an oil is a pain to get to work as the hydrocarbon chains that make it form an oil and not a solid also hinder the crystal from packing. In lab the packing is done by slowly removing solvent from a highly concentrated solution of the oil. Now in the case of cigars there would seem to be two kinetic factors to overcome: 1) diffusion of the oils through the cigar to the surface and 2) evaporation of the solvent around them. Maybe there are conditions that would enhance this rate, but in this case the data all points to mold, specifically a filamentous fungus. If you want to run the test I can send you the protocol, until these crystals are plated and not grown or you can diffract them under an x-ray for structure characterization (NMR characterization would be equally suitable) I will not heed the plume theory and go with mold as this is the more likely scenario.
 
Hey everyone....Honestly, he's right about the fine line between mold and plume. My collection has so much plume, that its starting to spread all over the house. JEALOUS??!!
photo2.jpg


laugh.gif
laugh.gif
laugh.gif
laugh.gif
laugh.gif


Billy wins!
 
Now I'm not quite sure what Smokin' Sims just said but it sounded pretty good.
thumbs-up.gif



.
 
I never really considered it a debate, unless you want to include those who don't really have any knowledge or legitimate frame of reference. Mold and plume are both just too easy to identify. There is no grey area, at all.

I find it pathetic that that this found it's way into a classroom, or a persons job.
Bad behaviour which exemplifies that part of humanhood which any thoughtful person wishes to put aside.

I am just disgusted.
 
If you guys have been smoking and collecting cigars for so long, then you should all know there are NO ABSOLUTES when it comes to cigars. This means ALL of us have different experiences when it comes to storing cigars. What makes the plume vs. mold debate so volatile is that there are so many variables about what plume is, what causes it, and how long it takes to form. It would be wise to consider that before you post a disparaging comment on someone's personal experience. All I can say is, I have seen plume form on cigars in a matter of several weeks (or we could use 2 or 3 months if that is more amenable to you guys). To be more specific, that plume has re-formed on the cigars after the initial formation had been wiped off. (And before you guys all comment on that, we wipe it off for this exact reason: that it is commonly mistaken as mold). As I also said in my posting, I have opened a new box of cigars just shipped from the manufacturer that have had plume on them. These are all personal experiences, so say what you want; I know what I know.
Nonetheless, I find it ironic and tragic that the very thing that started this whole debacle, namely someone who has more experience with cigars demeaning someone they perceive as being less knowledgeable, is exactly what I am getting in response to my posting. We are all people who love cigars. If we can't get along, or at the least be respectful of and civil with each other, how can we expect to withstand the onslaught of the anti-tobacco zealots who are trying to take cigars away from us?

With all due respect, if the pictures Wkoti provided earlier in this thread are from your store (and I have no reason to doubt they are) then that is clearly white mold on the cigars. There have been links provided in this thread that provide pictures that show the difference between the two. Once you know what to look for then it is easy to tell the difference between the two. Just because you can wipe it off does not necessarily make it plume. In my experience, white mold can sometimes be wiped off with no ill effects to the cigars, green mold, however, is a whole other story. I think you would get a much more favorable response from members of the community if you would at least open yourself up to the possibility to the fact that it could be mold. Instead, you seem to be in denial of that possibility when the picture evidence shows otherwise. One thing I've learned since being here is that accountability is paramount regardless of the transgression and people are willing to forgive once you own up to it.

I've been smoking and collecting cigars for nearly 10 years now and I have never had plume develop on cigars in a matter of weeks...or months for that matter. It often takes years under the right conditions for plume to develop, and that still is no guarantee that it will.
 
[quote name='Smokin'Sims' date='06 May 2010 - 08:13 PM' timestamp='1273202010' post='967401']
[quote name='denvercigarguy' date='06 May 2010 - 08:22 PM' timestamp='1273198947' post='967387']
If you guys have been smoking and collecting cigars for so long, then you should all know there are NO ABSOLUTES when it comes to cigars. This means ALL of us have different experiences when it comes to storing cigars. What makes the plume vs. mold debate so volatile is that there are so many variables about what plume is, what causes it, and how long it takes to form. It would be wise to consider that before you post a disparaging comment on someone's personal experience. All I can say is, I have seen plume form on cigars in a matter of several weeks (or we could use 2 or 3 months if that is more amenable to you guys). To be more specific, that plume has re-formed on the cigars after the initial formation had been wiped off. (And before you guys all comment on that, we wipe it off for this exact reason: that it is commonly mistaken as mold). As I also said in my posting, I have opened a new box of cigars just shipped from the manufacturer that have had plume on them. These are all personal experiences, so say what you want; I know what I know.
Nonetheless, I find it ironic and tragic that the very thing that started this whole debacle, namely someone who has more experience with cigars demeaning someone they perceive as being less knowledgeable, is exactly what I am getting in response to my posting. We are all people who love cigars. If we can't get along, or at the least be respectful of and civil with each other, how can we expect to withstand the onslaught of the anti-tobacco zealots who are trying to take cigars away from us?
[/quote]

Dr. Sims calls shenanigins on this (just talked about myself in third person creepy). The question of mold versus plume is easy and boils down to does it grow? All accounts I have heard of plume describe it as crystaline oils of the cigar and therefore will not grow if transfered to media; however, mold grows like a beast on the appropriate media. So, if you simply take some debated substance and place it on Potato Dextrose Agar and it grows you can be assured it is mold. You could go so far as isolate the DNA and do some 16s rRNA sequencing and find exactly which mold it is. Now all this info would run about $50 but just the mold test would only be a few bucks. It is also noteworthy that getting molecules to crystallize is a non-trivial process. Granted you get lucky every now and then, but I would make an educated guess that an oil is a pain to get to work as the hydrocarbon chains that make it form an oil and not a solid also hinder the crystal from packing. In lab the packing is done by slowly removing solvent from a highly concentrated solution of the oil. Now in the case of cigars there would seem to be two kinetic factors to overcome: 1) diffusion of the oils through the cigar to the surface and 2) evaporation of the solvent around them. Maybe there are conditions that would enhance this rate, but in this case the data all points to mold, specifically a filamentous fungus. If you want to run the test I can send you the protocol, until these crystals are plated and not grown or you can diffract them under an x-ray for structure characterization (NMR characterization would be equally suitable) I will not heed the plume theory and go with mold as this is the more likely scenario.
[/quote]

Exactly what I was thinking as well, Dr. Sims.

Shall we say....OWNED!

wkoti & CP -1
Delusional B&M - 0

End of thread. Lock it up.
 
Wow, it's a shame so many "Cigar Smokers" have not a clue what they are talking about. I have a local like this as well, so I no longer buy anything from them unless they just got it in stock like opus and such. Everything else I stay away from. I've brought up the mold before and it was dismissed as plume so I just dropped it and stopped going in.

As for the guy trying to "educate" us on the mold theory, your points that have been made are pretty hilarious and show you either have no idea what you are talking about or are thoroughly misinformed....
 
How are we using phrases like "the mold vs. plume debate"? It really isn't ambiguous tbh.
 
We've been blessed with some outstanding members who work in respected cigar shops and I would love to hear them chime in on the subject. I've used the mold/plume thing as a litmus test when I walk into a new shop. I haven't had one pass yet. I know our esteemed members who work in the shops would pass with flying colors but I would like to hear if there is a "shop culture" where this mold/plume thing is simply taught to a new worker by word of mouth and passed off to customers as gospel or what? I've been told mold and plume are the same thing on several occasions and then I get what this guy is telling us. It all sounds like they are simply passing on what they have been told all along but not one of them have bothered to question what they've been told. This guy seems to be drawing on personal experiences where he has seen plume re-form on sticks they have removed it from, has seen it in freshly arrived boxes, and has seen it form in a matter of weeks. I have no doubt this is true. What I doubt is that his definition of plume is the same as mine/ours. I have seen scientific definitions and up close pictures of mold and plume. They look nothing alike. I would ask denvercigar guy if he is simply drawing on the definition of mold/plume that he has been taught or if he has independently verified what each are. One last point, maybe this would be a good topic at the next IPCPR event. Sims and I could set up a booth. He could do the science stuff and I could use my boyish good looks to attract the cigar girls. Just a thought.
 
If you guys have been smoking and collecting cigars for so long, then you should all know there are NO ABSOLUTES when it comes to cigars. This means ALL of us have different experiences when it comes to storing cigars. What makes the plume vs. mold debate so volatile is that there are so many variables about what plume is, what causes it, and how long it takes to form. It would be wise to consider that before you post a disparaging comment on someone's personal experience. All I can say is, I have seen mold form on cigars in a matter of several weeks (or we could use 2 or 3 months if that is more amenable to you guys). To be more specific, that mold has re-formed on the cigars after the initial formation had been wiped off. (And before you guys all comment on that, we wipe it off for this exact reason: that it is mold). As I also said in my posting, I have opened a new box of cigars just shipped from the manufacturer that have had mold on them. These are all personal experiences, so say what you want; I know what I know.
Nonetheless, I find it ironic and tragic that the very thing that started this whole debacle, namely someone who has more experience with cigars demeaning someone they perceive as being less knowledgeable, is exactly what I am getting in response to my posting. We are all people who love cigars. If we can't get along, or at the least be respectful of and civil with each other, how can we expect to withstand the onslaught of the anti-tobacco zealots who are trying to take cigars away from us?


Now your post makes alot more sense.
 
We've been blessed with some outstanding members who work in respected cigar shops and I would love to hear them chime in on the subject. I've used the mold/plume thing as a litmus test when I walk into a new shop. I haven't had one pass yet. I know our esteemed members who work in the shops would pass with flying colors but I would like to hear if there is a "shop culture" where this mold/plume thing is simply taught to a new worker by word of mouth and passed off to customers as gospel or what? I've been told mold and plume are the same thing on several occasions and then I get what this guy is telling us. It all sounds like they are simply passing on what they have been told all along but not one of them have bothered to question what they've been told. This guy seems to be drawing on personal experiences where he has seen plume re-form on sticks they have removed it from, has seen it in freshly arrived boxes, and has seen it form in a matter of weeks. I have no doubt this is true. What I doubt is that his definition of plume is the same as mine/ours. I have seen scientific definitions and up close pictures of mold and plume. They look nothing alike. I would ask denvercigar guy if he is simply drawing on the definition of mold/plume that he has been taught or if he has independently verified what each are. One last point, maybe this would be a good topic at the next IPCPR event. Sims and I could set up a booth. He could do the science stuff and I could use my boyish good looks to attract the cigar girls. Just a thought.

You ever tried to get a physician to criticize another physician. Never going to happen. I believe, although I haven't checked closely, even our most esteemed vendors have avoided this thread. I wouldn't expect them to get involved. It's too much to ask. They have to live with each other, in a manner of speaking.

Doc.
 
Top