punk_lawyer
Habeas Punkus
Now that would make for a great evening! I love both of those.
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Getting your feet wet Pass II
- Thread starter Jonesy
- Start date
Now that would make for a great evening! I love both of those.
themoneycollector
Jokester
I have a question about value.
How do you truly value a cigar that has high MSRP, but most people think it's too pricey for what you get.
For instance, say a cigar had an MSRP of $20 (think some Gurkhas), but most people consider them overhyped. You could list a fiver of Gurkha Beasts for $100 in the trade forums all day and not get any sales. IMHO, I consider this to have a value of $20, but what I call Rare-. The minus is because I consider them rare because there may not be much quantity available, but they will rarely command full MSRP in an open market. Hence, for MSRP, they are readily available, but at a discount, not so readily available.
This is different than say an Opus, which I would label as Rare+, because they're rare, and even more difficult to find a seller without a markup.
How do most people value these?
How do you truly value a cigar that has high MSRP, but most people think it's too pricey for what you get.
For instance, say a cigar had an MSRP of $20 (think some Gurkhas), but most people consider them overhyped. You could list a fiver of Gurkha Beasts for $100 in the trade forums all day and not get any sales. IMHO, I consider this to have a value of $20, but what I call Rare-. The minus is because I consider them rare because there may not be much quantity available, but they will rarely command full MSRP in an open market. Hence, for MSRP, they are readily available, but at a discount, not so readily available.
This is different than say an Opus, which I would label as Rare+, because they're rare, and even more difficult to find a seller without a markup.
How do most people value these?
Jonesy
Got Ink ?
Since I partially agree with both sides on this issue, let's continue to get opinions on the matter until I can sit down and write a nice long verdict on the subject. I'm working all day so I'll try to give you my answer sometime tonight.
What I don't want to see are any more comments like this:
"The answer to that is to take other sticks. Some of us noobs can put in higher end sticks which makes it a bit more interesting for all of us. I applaud the high end puts and I plan on doing so myself."
This is the type of comment that is out of the realm of the"spirit of the pass".
What I don't want to see are any more comments like this:
"The answer to that is to take other sticks. Some of us noobs can put in higher end sticks which makes it a bit more interesting for all of us. I applaud the high end puts and I plan on doing so myself."
This is the type of comment that is out of the realm of the"spirit of the pass".
The Green Monkey
Brap-brap
Personally, I think we'd run into trouble if everyone were to feel obligated to make widely disparate takes and puts (in either direction--Stradivarius for White Owl, or White Owl for Stradivarius), but this issue has presented itself due to a combination of rather unique factors--DesertRat's unusual "availability" frame of reference, and the use of Vegas Opus prices as a benchmark.
I assume that we probably won't have anyone else constrained by both of these two unusual outliers, so while I do think it is important to clarify everything now just to be safe, I can't imagine that this is going to be a recurring issue throughout the life of the pass.
Obviously this is an untestable hypothesis, but I suspect that if DesertRat was towards the end of the rotation, much less ado would have been made about his puts and takes. I don't think we should worry about it setting the whole tone of the pass or any other sort of precedent.
I assume that we probably won't have anyone else constrained by both of these two unusual outliers, so while I do think it is important to clarify everything now just to be safe, I can't imagine that this is going to be a recurring issue throughout the life of the pass.
Obviously this is an untestable hypothesis, but I suspect that if DesertRat was towards the end of the rotation, much less ado would have been made about his puts and takes. I don't think we should worry about it setting the whole tone of the pass or any other sort of precedent.
Bsneed51
Habitual Threadjacker!
Here are my thoughts on this, for whatever they are worth.
Danny's puts and takes:
T Anejo 55 msrp 9.75 P Casa Fuente Corona Gorda msrp 18.00 Diff = 8.25
T FF Opus X msrp 9.50 P Cass Fuente Robust msrp 21.00 Diff = 11.50
Opus X No. 5 msrp 8.00 P Hemingway Untold Story msrp 12.50 Diff = 4.50
While Danny certainly leaves the pass better than when he got it, that completely destroys the theory of equal puts for equal takes. If the pass then reaches me, can I put in an Opus X No. 5 and take out one of the Casa Fuentes? No, I cannot, because the MSRP of my put is well below my take. I think puts and takes need to be equal in both directions, and this is not.
Also, Danny is adding two cigars to the pass that have extreme rarity, as Casa Fuentes are only available in one place. Being that this is a newbie pass, how many of our participants have cigars that are $20 plus in MSRP, and meet the rarity factor of the Casas? A Padron 40th meets the MSRP, but not the rarity. I can only come up with a couple of matchs (God Of Fire, Don Carlos Edicion de Aniversario). Based on rarity Tatuaje Black label, and Ashton ESG match, but they are far apart on MSRP.
Danny, I applaud your effort to improve the pass, and please don't take this as an attack on you, because we're all trying to learn here. However, I feel these puts and takes are not equal. Ultimately Brian, the decision is yours as the pass host, and you have much more experience than I do.
Danny's puts and takes:
T Anejo 55 msrp 9.75 P Casa Fuente Corona Gorda msrp 18.00 Diff = 8.25
T FF Opus X msrp 9.50 P Cass Fuente Robust msrp 21.00 Diff = 11.50
Opus X No. 5 msrp 8.00 P Hemingway Untold Story msrp 12.50 Diff = 4.50
While Danny certainly leaves the pass better than when he got it, that completely destroys the theory of equal puts for equal takes. If the pass then reaches me, can I put in an Opus X No. 5 and take out one of the Casa Fuentes? No, I cannot, because the MSRP of my put is well below my take. I think puts and takes need to be equal in both directions, and this is not.
Also, Danny is adding two cigars to the pass that have extreme rarity, as Casa Fuentes are only available in one place. Being that this is a newbie pass, how many of our participants have cigars that are $20 plus in MSRP, and meet the rarity factor of the Casas? A Padron 40th meets the MSRP, but not the rarity. I can only come up with a couple of matchs (God Of Fire, Don Carlos Edicion de Aniversario). Based on rarity Tatuaje Black label, and Ashton ESG match, but they are far apart on MSRP.
Danny, I applaud your effort to improve the pass, and please don't take this as an attack on you, because we're all trying to learn here. However, I feel these puts and takes are not equal. Ultimately Brian, the decision is yours as the pass host, and you have much more experience than I do.
Jonesy
Got Ink ?
Absolutely! I just think that this would be a great example to get you guys to think a little and come up with your own definition of "rarity" as no one person here can give a 100% accurate reponse.
Edited to say I've already come to my decision but I want to let you guys hash it out a little since we haven't started moving yet.
{tpc}
Professional Poker Tournament Loser
Well after reading BSneed51's response, it changes my own thoughts and I have to kinda agree. I mean look at it this way....say everyone is "heavy handed" in their puts....by the time it reaches Ironpeddler, he may not have the means to be as heavy handed, and may be running to the B&M to find "equal" puts. I, being one of the early participants will have an easier time with it, because it won't already be inflated.
With that in mind, I think the key here is the balancing of rarity vs. msrp. How you do that appropiately, I am not sure. I guess it might be ok to trade a low msrp, but rare cigar for a higher msrp but less rare cigar....because the rarity would add to the value of the low msrp raising it up to be more equal or vice versa. But it might not be ok to trade a high msrp, rare cigar for a lower msrp less rare cigar....because its just not equal...its nice and very generous...still, not equal.
Then again, what do i know? LOL ???
With that in mind, I think the key here is the balancing of rarity vs. msrp. How you do that appropiately, I am not sure. I guess it might be ok to trade a low msrp, but rare cigar for a higher msrp but less rare cigar....because the rarity would add to the value of the low msrp raising it up to be more equal or vice versa. But it might not be ok to trade a high msrp, rare cigar for a lower msrp less rare cigar....because its just not equal...its nice and very generous...still, not equal.
Then again, what do i know? LOL ???
DesertRat
Perpetual Newbie
That is indeed at the crux of the issue here. The only place I have seen Opus readily available and in stock at a retail store is in Vegas. When I look at online retailers they are always "Sold Out". Have I checked every single online retailer? No. There may be a retailer in Los Angeles (90 miles from me) that sells the Opus for an MSRP of $9.50 +taxes and has them readily in stock. I honestly don't know. My puts and takes were based on my limited experience and in my little universe they seemed reasonable to me.
It was not my intent to create a controversy or make it difficult for people downstream to enjoy the pass and if that has happened then please accept my apologies.
I will of course gladly abide by whatever decision #2 hands down.
One thing for sure.... We're learning!
Peace
Danny
Bsneed51
Habitual Threadjacker!
Bsneed51
Habitual Threadjacker!
Sorry bully, I shouldn't have posted that. I know you and I have discussed our thoughts on this in private and agree to disagree. Like I said, I'll follow along with the pass hosts decision, and adjust my puts and takes accordingly.
I hope this doesn't put a damper on the pass for anyone, because I want to learn this, and enjoy it in the process.
I hope this doesn't put a damper on the pass for anyone, because I want to learn this, and enjoy it in the process.
Marco-Polo
Go Irish Go!
In that I have 0.02$ worth, the following "systems" might be workable rules of thumb for the GYFW Pass:
1) "Equal" puts and takes should be within a fairly broad range - say plus 25%/minus 10% or a symmetrical plus/minus 15%. This lets people "improve" the pass without pricing it out of later participants' ability to pay. The risk of this is that after several iterations, it's possible to ratchet up the price nonetheless.
2) Alternately, we may wish to set the brackets in keeping with the first cigar to be placed in a slot - if a $5 cigar kicks it off, whatever lies in that spot is worth, de jure if not de facto, $5. I'm not so much a fan of this one but it has the side benefit of keeping the pass at a consistent level of affordability.
3) We could combine these in by allowing upwards and downwards puts, within a range, so that the net value of the pass is kept stable. Not a fan of this at all (since Jonesy risks a fair chunk of change to send a pass outwards, and deserves to see it increase somewhat as a consequence of assuming this risk, not to mention his time and attention), but I can see that it might be a workable compromise.
In all cases, substantially richening the pass should be frowned upon (because it disadvantages other members - if you want to get into a high dollar pass, you'll have plenty of chances later), impoverishing it forbidden. This being a community rather than a quid-pro-quo exchange, let your conscience be your guide.
I think that this speaks to the point of any getting your feet wet pass. I'm not sure exactly what Jonesy is thinking at this point in time, but in my eyes it should be to give people the opportunity to exchange interesting (although not necessarily high value) cigars, to cement newbies' ties to the CP community and give people the opportunity to build relationships based on reciprocity, to get a first run at the procedures and practices of cigar exchange. Every participant should ask him or herself: how do these puts/trades reflect on me, how will they be received by the other pass recipients, and did I handle the administrative aspects effectively and promptly. (Which isn't to say that Danny hasn't - I admire his forthrightness and willingness to engage in discussion.)
Edit: I kant spel.
1) "Equal" puts and takes should be within a fairly broad range - say plus 25%/minus 10% or a symmetrical plus/minus 15%. This lets people "improve" the pass without pricing it out of later participants' ability to pay. The risk of this is that after several iterations, it's possible to ratchet up the price nonetheless.
2) Alternately, we may wish to set the brackets in keeping with the first cigar to be placed in a slot - if a $5 cigar kicks it off, whatever lies in that spot is worth, de jure if not de facto, $5. I'm not so much a fan of this one but it has the side benefit of keeping the pass at a consistent level of affordability.
3) We could combine these in by allowing upwards and downwards puts, within a range, so that the net value of the pass is kept stable. Not a fan of this at all (since Jonesy risks a fair chunk of change to send a pass outwards, and deserves to see it increase somewhat as a consequence of assuming this risk, not to mention his time and attention), but I can see that it might be a workable compromise.
In all cases, substantially richening the pass should be frowned upon (because it disadvantages other members - if you want to get into a high dollar pass, you'll have plenty of chances later), impoverishing it forbidden. This being a community rather than a quid-pro-quo exchange, let your conscience be your guide.
I think that this speaks to the point of any getting your feet wet pass. I'm not sure exactly what Jonesy is thinking at this point in time, but in my eyes it should be to give people the opportunity to exchange interesting (although not necessarily high value) cigars, to cement newbies' ties to the CP community and give people the opportunity to build relationships based on reciprocity, to get a first run at the procedures and practices of cigar exchange. Every participant should ask him or herself: how do these puts/trades reflect on me, how will they be received by the other pass recipients, and did I handle the administrative aspects effectively and promptly. (Which isn't to say that Danny hasn't - I admire his forthrightness and willingness to engage in discussion.)
Edit: I kant spel.
ironpeddler
Ye Old Newbie
Well....
If we keep this Pass in the 'Spirit of Learning', than these discussions are (IMO) happening way too soon. The box hasn't even been mailed yet and already we're into a more advanced debate better suited to a more experienced Pass. :whistling:
Discussing Rarity and HTF is not what a Newbie Pass is all about. I was under the impression that we would start this off learning about matching MSRP stick-for-stick....making us do the research about the different brands and trying to stay within certain price boundaries.
I totally understand where Danny is coming from...and don't take this the wrong way...but if you wanted Opus or Anejo and couldn't find them by you in a B&M, reach out to one of us and we will hook you up via trade or gift.
I'd like to see this Pass go by the book. When I initially saw Brian's cigar list I thought this was a great opportunity for learning about new cigars and bantering back and forth about them, there were price points there for everyone to participate with. I've been smoking cigars for many years and there were quite a few sticks there that I have never tried or even heard of for that matter. I have sent many a PM asking different members what 'this' or 'that' is.
When I saw that Brian was OK with Danny's P&Ts, I was a little surprised to say the least and my sarcastic remark about "don't let us stop you" was not appropriate and I'm sorry about that.
Ultimately it's Brian's decision and we have to abide by it...and by the way #2, Padron 1926s suck! :laugh: :laugh:
If we keep this Pass in the 'Spirit of Learning', than these discussions are (IMO) happening way too soon. The box hasn't even been mailed yet and already we're into a more advanced debate better suited to a more experienced Pass. :whistling:
Discussing Rarity and HTF is not what a Newbie Pass is all about. I was under the impression that we would start this off learning about matching MSRP stick-for-stick....making us do the research about the different brands and trying to stay within certain price boundaries.
I totally understand where Danny is coming from...and don't take this the wrong way...but if you wanted Opus or Anejo and couldn't find them by you in a B&M, reach out to one of us and we will hook you up via trade or gift.
I'd like to see this Pass go by the book. When I initially saw Brian's cigar list I thought this was a great opportunity for learning about new cigars and bantering back and forth about them, there were price points there for everyone to participate with. I've been smoking cigars for many years and there were quite a few sticks there that I have never tried or even heard of for that matter. I have sent many a PM asking different members what 'this' or 'that' is.
When I saw that Brian was OK with Danny's P&Ts, I was a little surprised to say the least and my sarcastic remark about "don't let us stop you" was not appropriate and I'm sorry about that.
Ultimately it's Brian's decision and we have to abide by it...and by the way #2, Padron 1926s suck! :laugh: :laugh:
Jonesy
Got Ink ?
If a learning pass is too early to learn about HTF's and rarity, what will happen when you enter your first "live" high end pass where you put in a Padron '26 #6 that MSRP's $14 for an Anejo MSRP'ing for ~$8 and you get trampled upon by a few senior members? What better time to learn about ALL aspects of a pass than a learning pass? Also, I think it is in the best interest of the pass and participants to have a discussion like this before the pass is underway.....that way a debate like this doesn't keep the pass from moving. This is my 15th pass people, I think you can have a little confidence in the way I operate a pass.
pembroke3355
Banned
My take on this is that to Danny the Opus maybe a very HTF stick and that needs to be considered as well. This being a newbie pass I really do not think we are going to have to worry much about ultra high end sticks.
Being that the Opus is very HTF for Danny we need to at least consider his position and he should be allowed to do this. I am later in this pass #20 and I am not real concerned about having to get super high end premiums. I feel the pass will more than even out towards the end.
The only problem I see is that it would be very hard indeed for most of us to match the rarity and MSRP price on the CF. If I got the package next I would simply have to pass on the CF and move on to the other sticks. I have cigars that MSRP in that range but do not meet the rarity.
As we have time. I would suggest that anyone that may have a interest in taking the CF will has time to purchase cigars such as GOF and some of the other HTF and high value cigars(they can be found on some of these vendor websites).
This just happens to be a unique circumstance and IMO will not be a problem. If this were a pass with some of the more established members or FOGS then it may be a problem. But I really would have no business being in that pass at this time. I think the spirit of what Danny did was in good faith. He left the pass in better shape than it started in and is getting some cigars that are HTF for him.
I of course will heed to the decision of Brian. At the very least this has been a good experience so far. It has me thinking more about the pass and the thoughts and feelings of other members of this pass. So I guess it is time to "Get our feet wet". :thumbs:
Best Regards
Don
Being that the Opus is very HTF for Danny we need to at least consider his position and he should be allowed to do this. I am later in this pass #20 and I am not real concerned about having to get super high end premiums. I feel the pass will more than even out towards the end.
The only problem I see is that it would be very hard indeed for most of us to match the rarity and MSRP price on the CF. If I got the package next I would simply have to pass on the CF and move on to the other sticks. I have cigars that MSRP in that range but do not meet the rarity.
As we have time. I would suggest that anyone that may have a interest in taking the CF will has time to purchase cigars such as GOF and some of the other HTF and high value cigars(they can be found on some of these vendor websites).
This just happens to be a unique circumstance and IMO will not be a problem. If this were a pass with some of the more established members or FOGS then it may be a problem. But I really would have no business being in that pass at this time. I think the spirit of what Danny did was in good faith. He left the pass in better shape than it started in and is getting some cigars that are HTF for him.
I of course will heed to the decision of Brian. At the very least this has been a good experience so far. It has me thinking more about the pass and the thoughts and feelings of other members of this pass. So I guess it is time to "Get our feet wet". :thumbs:
Best Regards
Don