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Et Tu Brute?

Devil Doc

When Death smiles, Corpsmen smile back
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Messages
11,594
...stabs us in the back!

Sixty years ago I was the editor of the daily newspaper at college, and one memorable day in September, plotting the year's business, we got word that the two big tobacco companies (R.J. Reynolds and Philip Morris) were suspending all their ads in the college press. The news was greeted with dismay both by editors who smoked ("We'll just die from something else," they harrumphed) and by those who did not, equally affected by this big hole in the advertising budget. Sixty years!


Pffft! This past June, a member of Congress from California and 40 of her colleagues wrote to the publishers of several magazines protesting their publication of ads for a new variety of Camel cigarette. The protesters complained that the ads and the packaging for Camel No. 9 were designed to have special appeal to girls and young women. The manufacturers have always insisted that their ads aren't intended to lure people to begin smoking, but simply to draw existing smokers away from the competitor's brand. But the congresswoman was well briefed on how to treat such sophistry.

And just this week, The New York Times reported that cigarette makers are walking away from print ads for their products and concentrating their marketing efforts on venues (bars and nightclubs, specialized Web sites) where they are less likely to attract the attention of teenagers. The reporter's narrative recalled the days when ads advised smokers that "More doctors smoke Camels than any other cigarette," or that Chesterfield was "best for you," but settling down, finally, on the one sure ground the tobacco industry rests on: Newport cigarettes are "alive with pleasure."

The ads, of course, took no account of those who were dead, presumably without pleasure. But practically no one has led a lifetime removed from the debate. There is often the felt need to recount personal stories, which add spice, and perhaps a little useful feeling to the argument.

My own story is that I am the founder of a doughty magazine which, if space was solicited tomorrow by a tobacco company, would agree to sell the space. We would come up with serious arguments featuring personal independence and pain/pleasure correlations to justify selling the space, but I would need to weep just a little bit on the inside over the simple existence of tobacco.

Again, the personal story. My wife began smoking (furtively) when 15, which is about when I also began. When we were both 27, on the morning after a high-pitched night on the town for New Year's Eve, we resolved on mortification of the flesh to make up for our excesses: We both gave up smoking. The next morning, we decided to divorce -- nothing less than that would distract us from the pain we were suffering. We came to, and flipped a coin -- the winner could resume smoking. I lost, and for deluded years thought myself the real loser, deprived of cigarettes. Half a year ago my wife died, technically from an infection, but manifestly, at least in part, from a body weakened by 60 years of nonstop smoking. I stayed off the cigarettes but went to the idiocy of cigars inhaled, and suffer now from emphysema, which seems determined to outpace heart disease as a human killer.

Stick me in a confessional and ask the question: Sir, if you had the authority, would you forbid smoking in America? You'd get a solemn and contrite, Yes. Solemn because I would be violating my secular commitment to the free marketplace. Contrite, because my relative indifference to tobacco poison for so many years puts me in something of the position of the Zyklon B defendants after World War II. These folk manufactured the special gas used in the death camps to genocidal ends. They pleaded, of course, that as far as they were concerned, they were simply technicians, putting together chemicals needed in wartime for fumigation. Some got away with that defense; others, not.

Those who fail to protest the free passage of tobacco smoke in the air come close to the Zyklon defendants in pleading ignorance.

William F. Buckley
 
Why can't people just decide for themselves whether or not to smoke? We know the health risks of cigarettes. We know the studies as they relate to casual cigar smoking. Why do people feel the need to litigate an issue that has been studied so thoroughly. There is plenty of information available for everyone to make an educated decision, the consequences of which they alone will have to deal with. This topic and all the misinformation surrounding it really gets under my skin.

D
 
Why can't people just decide for themselves whether or not to smoke? We know the health risks of cigarettes. We know the studies as they relate to casual cigar smoking. Why do people feel the need to litigate an issue that has been studied so thoroughly. There is plenty of information available for everyone to make an educated decision, the consequences of which they alone will have to deal with. This topic and all the misinformation surrounding it really gets under my skin.
Because the big, fluffy, loving, caring, wonderful, motherly, nanny-state knows whats best for you, and whats best for the common good. We have to save you from yourself. :laugh:
 
My read on this opinion is not that the individual smoker should or should not determine for themselves whether or not to partake in tobacco, but for the individual smoker to be aware that they are part and parcel in the "infection" of the non-smoker. Anti-smoking laws, IMHO, are not always a bad thing. They can however be too restrictive and can also be discriminating. Illinois new law, which goes into effect January 1st, is one of the most restrictive yet and I imagine it is the future of the anti-smoking laws.
 
wm%20cigar%20aficionado.jpg


-Mark
 
This is a question put to me by my wife: I've heard that smoking a cigar has the equivalent of 7 cigarettes' worth of tobacco in it so how can you say that cigars are safer than cigarettes? I've always put forth the George Burns defense (he smoked one a day and lived close to the age of Methuselah). I've always assumed that it was the chemicals contained in cigarettes that caused health problems but I guess I don't know the definitive answer. The above article seems to speak of the demons of secondhand cigarette smoke. Do we, as cigar smokers, belong in that same category? And by extension, in the category of Nazi mass murderers?
 
This is a question put to me by my wife: I've heard that smoking a cigar has the equivalent of 7 cigarettes' worth of tobacco in it so how can you say that cigars are safer than cigarettes? I've always put forth the George Burns defense (he smoked one a day and lived close to the age of Methuselah). I've always assumed that it was the chemicals contained in cigarettes that caused health problems but I guess I don't know the definitive answer.


I thought it was more or less related to the fact the smoke isn't commonly inhaled. If it was then I assume that yes, it would be worse for you. The chemicals are a factor as well, of course.
 
This is a question put to me by my wife: I've heard that smoking a cigar has the equivalent of 7 cigarettes' worth of tobacco in it so how can you say that cigars are safer than cigarettes? I've always put forth the George Burns defense (he smoked one a day and lived close to the age of Methuselah). I've always assumed that it was the chemicals contained in cigarettes that caused health problems but I guess I don't know the definitive answer. The above article seems to speak of the demons of secondhand cigarette smoke. Do we, as cigar smokers, belong in that same category? And by extension, in the category of Nazi mass murderers?

I'll point you to this article and the research by the American Cancer Institute. Although you can hear the anti-tobacco tone in the writing, the actual data shows the dangers of second-hand cigar smoke in the air are relatively low. The air pollution from a cigar is basically as harmful as the air in your car when you're driving on the freeway.
 
Here's what I find almost laughable:

From the Smoking and Tobacco Control Monograph No.9:

"Indoor CO concentrations during
the smoker ranged between 5 and 11 ppm, yielding an indoor average of about 6
ppm
. The highest CO concentrations occurred on the upstairs mezzanine of the
main hall. If we adjust the observed CO concentrations by subtracting the
ambient CO levels of 1.5 ppm measured outside the building on the sidewalks,
the cigar smokers contributed about 4.5 ppm."


89 people smoking cigars inside produced a CO level of around 6ppm during the cigar gathering.

"CONCLUSIONS
1. ETS from cigar smoke is a major and increasing source of exposure to indoor
air pollution.
2. When smoked in confined indoor spaces at typical smoking and ventilation
rates, cigars may produce concentrations of certain regulated ambient air
pollutants, including CO and RSP, which can violate federal air quality
standards
and add to the level of these compounds already in the ambient air
from other combustion sources."


This conclusion makes it sound as if the average of 6ppm of CO can violate federal air quality standards.

"EXPOSURE LIMITS

* OSHA PEL

The current Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) permissible exposure limit (PEL) for carbon monoxide is 50 parts per million (ppm) parts of air (55 milligrams per cubic meter (mg/m(3))) as an 8-hour time-weighted average (TWA) concentration [29 CFR Table Z-1]. "


If I'm not mistaken, OSHA is saying that a person can be exposed to almost 10x the ppm than at the cigar party for an 8 hour period and be fine. EPA has a 9ppm for an 8hr period so they are much more stringent for some reason.
 
Seems rather stupid to go from smoking cigarettes to inhaling cigars... sheesh. Enjoy cigars the way they are supposed to be enjoyed. The health risks are significantly lower than for cigarette smokers.
 
...When we were both 27, on the morning after a high-pitched night on the town for New Year's Eve, we resolved on mortification of the flesh to make up for our excesses: We both gave up smoking. The next morning, we decided to divorce -- nothing less than that would distract us from the pain we were suffering. We came to, and flipped a coin -- the winner could resume smoking. I lost, and for deluded years thought myself the real loser, deprived of cigarettes. Half a year ago my wife died, technically from an infection, but manifestly, at least in part, from a body weakened by 60 years of nonstop smoking. I stayed off the cigarettes but went to the idiocy of cigars inhaled, and suffer now from emphysema, which seems determined to outpace heart disease as a human killer....

I was re-reading the original post and become confused by the story. So both as a resolution decided to quit smoking, then the next day decided to divorce? Then decided against that and instead flipped a coin to see who could keep smoking? Why not just flip the coin and see if they both quit or keep smoking, or use no coin and stick to the resolution? Anyone else find the story a bit odd?
 
...stabs us in the back!


....blah blah blah...


Those who fail to protest the free passage of tobacco smoke in the air come close to the Zyklon defendants in pleading ignorance.

William F. Buckley

Such astonishingly inane statements are a staple of the hysterical anti-smoking movement. I really boggles the mind.
 
The protesters complained that the ads and the packaging for Camel No. 9 were designed to have special appeal to girls and young women.

Whats wrong with that? Smoking is illegal for under 18 and its illegal to sell to anyone under 18, Its called a good market strategy.
 
...stabs us in the back!

Those who fail to protest the free passage of tobacco smoke in the air come close to the Zyklon defendants in pleading ignorance.

That's just offensive and unnecessarily inflammatory. It cheapens his entire argument, which, as an opinion piece, was acceptable. By this logic even non-smokers who don't get their panties in a bunch are genocidal. Even before I began smoking, I couldn't stand anti-smokers as what people want to do to their bodies should be their business, no one else's.

I do believe that smoker's should have the decency not to smoke in a large group of people whom it would bother, within reason. If you're somewhere that smoking's allowed, you should feel free to smoke if you're alone or with someone whom wouldn't mind without getting interference from a scrunched up nose or waving hand.
 
Specious reasoning = if I don't think you should do it, then the laws should say you can't do it.

For the record, his wife died at the age of 80. Age (genetics) just may have taken its toll as well.
Edited to add:
"She died in Stamford, Connecticut, aged 80, after a period of ill health. Her husband reported in National Review that her "infirmities dated back to a skiing accident in 1965. She went through four hip replacements over the years. She went into the hospital a fortnight ago, but there was no thought of any terminal problem. Yet following an infection, on the seventh day, she died, in the arms of her son"
 
Devil Doc, you posted a thought-provoking quote.

Somehow I felt Buckley's pain of losing his wife. He definitely has a way with words. Still, it requires quite a leap of bad faith for him to arrive at the personal conclusion to actively deny another's individual rights. Isn't that the point he is making?

Cheers,
antaean
 
Dead at 82. 10 years above the average life expectancy in the USA.

Not bad for someone who inhaled cigars for most of his life.
 
Hmm...interesting article, interesting manner in which he perceived himself:

"I am, I fully grant, a phenomenon, but not because of any speed in composition," he wrote in The New York Times Book Review in 1986. "I asked myself the other day, `Who else, on so many issues, has been so right so much of the time?' I couldn't think of anyone."

Continuing:

...He advocated the decriminalization of marijuana, supported the treaty ceding control of the Panama Canal and came to oppose the Iraq war...

A colleague states:

"For people of my generation, Bill Buckley was pretty much the first intelligent, witty, well-educated conservative one saw on television," fellow conservative William Kristol, editor of the Weekly Standard.


Then the article goes on to state:

In a 1968 television debate, when left-wing novelist and critic Gore Vidal called him a "pro-war-crypto-Nazi," Buckley snarled an anti-gay slur and threatened to "sock you in your ... face and you'll stay plastered."


Sounds very intelligent, witty, and well-educated to me as well... :rolleyes:
 
Hmm...interesting article, interesting manner in which he perceived himself:

"I am, I fully grant, a phenomenon, but not because of any speed in composition," he wrote in The New York Times Book Review in 1986. "I asked myself the other day, `Who else, on so many issues, has been so right so much of the time?' I couldn't think of anyone."

Continuing:

...He advocated the decriminalization of marijuana, supported the treaty ceding control of the Panama Canal and came to oppose the Iraq war...

A colleague states:

"For people of my generation, Bill Buckley was pretty much the first intelligent, witty, well-educated conservative one saw on television," fellow conservative William Kristol, editor of the Weekly Standard.


Then the article goes on to state:

In a 1968 television debate, when left-wing novelist and critic Gore Vidal called him a "pro-war-crypto-Nazi," Buckley snarled an anti-gay slur and threatened to "sock you in your ... face and you'll stay plastered."


Sounds very intelligent, witty, and well-educated to me as well... :rolleyes:

That is absolutely hilarious!!!
 
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