First SCHIP casualty?

[grateful1]

Sorry guys but SCHIP isn't to blame, Florida passed a $1 per stick tax on cigars.

Nope.


Edit to add this...if you are going to make that statement...linky to some facts, please.

It is clear that SCHIPS has a direct effect on the price of these cigars/cigarillos/cigarettes.

What is not clear is that the $1 increase for FLA is what? LINKY

excerpt: "An equivalent increase also applies to smokeless and pipe tobacco, but not cigars".

So...are the Hav-a-Tamps cigars or 'other'?

 

[Mike33]

Think about it....if a product you use goes up 30% overnight...how long will you keep buying it?

I think the main thing that's missed is...they will still product the cigar overseas.

Once again....American jobs moving over seas due to taxation. (and I'm sure other causes)

Now, the tax will be in play still...but the cost reduction offsets the sales slide. In theory.

In the mean time, we know have more folks that 'may' need support in the short to long run.


<edit to add...and we havn't even seen that the new regulation of tobacco will do!>

As far as I understand SCHIP, the tax applies to both domestic and imported cigars all the same. Is that not correct?

If that is the case, then how would this tax cause them to move overseas if they are still having to pay it when they import the cigars they make in the other country? Sure, you decrease your cost overall, but you are still paying the tax. The blame in this case for the loss of jobs would seem to fall on outsourcing, not the SCHIP tax; but, I can see how it would be a conveinent target for the manufacturers.

That's what I said.

The tax just put some of the companies over the edge.

Now...Read more, post less!

:sign:

:sign:

I know what you wrote Gary, I was just confused as to why you wrote what you did. The line about American companies moving overseas because of taxation (this one in particular) is a cop out, as others have pointed to. All this does is allow U.S. companies who want to go overseas an excuse like the one you wrote. Its a popular rallying cry, but not an accurate one.

I will go back to reading more, posting less :laugh:

 

[grateful1]

:sign:

I know what you wrote Gary, I was just confused as to why you wrote what you did. The line about American companies moving overseas because of taxation (this one in particular) is a cop out, as others have pointed to. All this does is allow U.S. companies who want to go overseas an excuse like the one you wrote. Its a popular rallying cry, but not an accurate one.

I will go back to reading more, posting less :laugh:

OK...why is it a cop out.

Heck, CT lost most of it's business due to taxes.

Yes..'cost' is a factor....and taxes are a cost.

Tell me what would be more accurate?

(I guess I should state that it's not just the extra taxations, but it's that that pushes companies over the edge.)

Heck..we don't even want to get into a 'unions' and 'pension' and 'medical' discussion...that's for Friday!

 

[LilBastage]

OK...why is it a cop out.

Heck, CT lost most of it's business due to taxes.

Yes..'cost' is a factor....and taxes are a cost.

Tell me what would be more accurate?

(I guess I should state that it's not just the extra taxations, but it's that that pushes companies over the edge.)

Heck..we don't even want to get into a 'unions' and 'pension' and 'medical' discussion...that's for Friday!

You're right, blaming the final nail in the coffin is just as legitimate as blaming the first nail in the coffin. Their product (tobacco) has been under assault for years. Of course it's a combination of things, but there is always one straw too many to carry at some point.

It's sad to see a 100+ year old American plant shut down no matter the reason. I'd guess their margins were pretty tight (like a lot of businesses in the United States) before the tax and they likely tightened further after it went into effect.

 

[steamboat]

Sorry guys but SCHIP isn't to blame, Florida passed a $1 per stick tax on cigars.

Nope.


Edit to add this...if you are going to make that statement...linky to some facts, please.

It is clear that SCHIPS has a direct effect on the price of these cigars/cigarillos/cigarettes.

What is not clear is that the $1 increase for FLA is what? LINKY

excerpt: "An equivalent increase also applies to smokeless and pipe tobacco, but not cigars".

So...are the Hav-a-Tamps cigars or 'other'?

Some of their products are identical to cigarettes in every way with the possible exception of the tabacco blend. They make little ciars with filters and paper wrappers which a reasonable man could expect to be treated like cigarettes.

Sorry for the mis-info. I was relying on a third party that holds himself out to be an expert. I will be much more careful in the future when relaying information from that source.

 

[Mike33]

:sign:

I know what you wrote Gary, I was just confused as to why you wrote what you did. The line about American companies moving overseas because of taxation (this one in particular) is a cop out, as others have pointed to. All this does is allow U.S. companies who want to go overseas an excuse like the one you wrote. Its a popular rallying cry, but not an accurate one.

I will go back to reading more, posting less :laugh:

OK...why is it a cop out.

Heck, CT lost most of it's business due to taxes.

Yes..'cost' is a factor....and taxes are a cost.

Tell me what would be more accurate?

(I guess I should state that it's not just the extra taxations, but it's that that pushes companies over the edge.)

Heck..we don't even want to get into a 'unions' and 'pension' and 'medical' discussion...that's for Friday!

You are right, it is an added cost. As a result, the company has to ship production overseas to another country where labor is cheaper. In theory, they will save in labor costs to make up for the tax increase. So I can see the point that the tax is forcing the company to go overseas.

However, the argument could then be that if the US labor force was cheaper, then the company wouldn't have to go to another country. You could make this argument about any "cost" a company has. Each country has advantages/disadvantages when it comes to its work force. In this case, production in the US isn't reasonable because higher labor costs along with a higher tax forces the company go to country with lower labor costs to offset the increased costs (overall costs). The company is taking advantage of trade because they have to pay the tax no matter where the cigars are made. Trade is the reason why the company is shutting down US production. So, if you like or are in favor of free trade, then you should be comfortable with this situation.

 

[grateful1]

Heck..we don't even want to get into a 'unions' and 'pension' and 'medical' discussion...that's for Friday!

You are right, it is an added cost. As a result, the company has to ship production overseas to another country where labor is cheaper. In theory, they will save in labor costs to make up for the tax increase. So I can see the point that the tax is forcing the company to go overseas.

However, the argument could then be that if the US labor force was cheaper, then the company wouldn't have to go to another country. You could make this argument about any "cost" a company has. Each country has advantages/disadvantages when it comes to its work force. In this case, production in the US isn't reasonable because higher labor costs along with a higher tax forces the company go to country with lower labor costs to offset the increased costs (overall costs). The company is taking advantage of trade because they have to pay the tax no matter where the cigars are made. Trade is the reason why the company is shutting down US production. So, if you like or are in favor of free trade, then you should be comfortable with this situation.

Couldn't wait 2 more days!

:laugh:


====================

No worries, Steamboat these things change all the time. :thumbs:

 

[Mike33]

Heck..we don't even want to get into a 'unions' and 'pension' and 'medical' discussion...that's for Friday!

You are right, it is an added cost. As a result, the company has to ship production overseas to another country where labor is cheaper. In theory, they will save in labor costs to make up for the tax increase. So I can see the point that the tax is forcing the company to go overseas.

However, the argument could then be that if the US labor force was cheaper, then the company wouldn't have to go to another country. You could make this argument about any "cost" a company has. Each country has advantages/disadvantages when it comes to its work force. In this case, production in the US isn't reasonable because higher labor costs along with a higher tax forces the company go to country with lower labor costs to offset the increased costs (overall costs). The company is taking advantage of trade because they have to pay the tax no matter where the cigars are made. Trade is the reason why the company is shutting down US production. So, if you like or are in favor of free trade, then you should be comfortable with this situation.

Couldn't wait 2 more days!

:laugh:


====================

No worries, Steamboat these things change all the time. :thumbs:

I would have forgotten what I was going to say by then :blush: :laugh:

 

[Wurm]

Has it occured to anyone that the reason that they're folding isn't SCHIP, or anti-smoking legislation, but that it's a lousy procuct.

Doc.

I don't know about that, I've smoked my fair share of jewels over the years, mostly while out in the field. They are my German brother in law's favorite smokes. Guess I'll have to pick him up a box or two before they disappear for good.