More Tat Blacks on the Way!

[Ginseng]

Andrew,

I'll look forward to MocoBird's answer, especially if he has something substantive to say. However, it's not unreasonable to expect some frustration with patterns of supply/marketing management that even Lew Rothman acknowledges. On one basic and common level, I think he's just expressing the the exasperated cynicism that many cigar smokers feel to some degree. I know I do.

Not all of us are as close to these people as you are, Andrew. What may be distasteful to you based on your deeper understanding may merely be a way for the typical cigar buyer to cope. In this case, you are in the position to illuminate MocoBird and the rest of us as well if, as I suspect, you have the answers to the critical questions you just posed.

Wilkey

 

[moki]

Andrew,

I'll look forward to MocoBird's answer, especially if he has something substantive to say. However, it's not unreasonable to expect some frustration with patterns of supply/marketing management that even Lew Rothman acknowledges. On one basic and common level, I think he's just expressing the the exasperated cynicism that many cigar smokers feel to some degree. I know I do.

Not all of us are as close to these people as you are, Andrew. What may be distasteful to you based on your deeper understanding may merely be a way for the typical cigar buyer to cope. In this case, you are in the position to illuminate MocoBird and the rest of us as well if, as I suspect, you have the answers to the critical questions you just posed.

Wilkey

The thread on CF I linked to has Pete answering those very questions in his own words...

I think it makes sense to express opinions, but it doesn't make sense to fabricate facts to suit your personal opinions.

Regarding "marketing ploys", I'm surprised people don't have more of an issue with CAO, Ghurka (probably the worst offender), and Habanos SA (purveyors of the "regional" release as well as the yearly "ELs" that expire every year).

 

[Devil Doc]

Call me old fashioned, but I never believe anything that a person who's trying to sell me something says.

Doc.

 

[moki]

Call me old fashioned, but I never believe anything that a person who's trying to sell me something says.

Doc.

So which statements do you think that Pete is lying about?

 

[Devil Doc]

I didn't say Pete was lying. He may very well be telling the truth. I don't believe it because I just don't trust anyone who's trying to sell me something and the cigar industry is as crooked as any.

Doc.

 

[Ginseng]

The thread on CF I linked to has Pete answering those very questions in his own words...

I think it makes sense to express opinions, but it doesn't make sense to fabricate facts to suit your personal opinions.

Regarding "marketing ploys", I'm surprised people don't have more of an issue with CAO, Ghurka (probably the worst offender), and Habanos SA (purveyors of the "regional" release as well as the yearly "ELs" that expire every year).

Right O! Must have been one click to many for me.

While I don't smoke CAO or Ghurka, I do gnash my teeth regularly at the HSA EL/ER/etc. strategy. Would I do so if I had unlimited means? Perhaps not. But the fact of the matter is that they start you on the gateway drug (regular production Habanos), get you hooked, and then attempt to empty out your pockets with the hard stuff (EL/ER/etc.) One does not need to be privy to the HSA planning meetings to infer intent from the tangible results of the strategy. For those who need to make choices, sometimes hard ones with respect to what cigars to buy, the choice has sometimes become more bitter than sweet. At least from where I stand.

I suppose Moco was fabricating, in a sense. But what I think he was really doing was making unsubstantiated accusations.

Wilkey

 

[jfields]

I don't really think it's a marketing ploy at all, and the only feeding frenzy that was created was done by us the consumer rather than Pete Johnson.
He only did this after numerous request from people from what I'm told. If you read Andrew's link to CF, you can see that he says the whole project was more of a pain than anything.
He had problems with production of the jars in China, the wrapper difficulties, ect. All for a cigar that was really intended for his personal consumption.
Think he's making a mint off of brilliantly marketing a limited release of a thousand jars..............Think again.

 

[MocoBird]

Apparently there is a wrapper issue (not dark enough) at the factory. He said the issue is being resolved and he expects enough cigars to fill the remaining jars and have out to the retailers by the end of June.
Lou

"I also knew it was going to be a problem getting that many cigars made within a certain time with the wrapper I was looking for." ..Pete
--quote from CF thread you referred to.

Curious Moki, since I'm not in the cigar industry, is it common place to announce the release of a limited edition cigar, annouce the quantity to be sold, then begin distributing and selling the cigars only to find out you don't have enough product to complete the venture? Or worst yet is it common place to go into a venture not sure if your going to be able to complete the project as annouced? With the limited amount of cigars to be made in the first place shouldn't he know if he is going to have enought product to finish the project? Just all sounds like good marketing to me.

Never said he wasn't a good businessman. Just the opposite, he's one of the best. Just not sure I buy into that. JMO!!

Gary.......consumer and business owner.

ps...Bsneed51, not pointing fingers and I don't hate Pete. I even have a few of his cigars in my humi. :laugh: Oh, and 13 dollar cigars....far and few between. Now 10 dollars cigars...that's a different story!

 

[moki]

Curious Moki, since I'm not in the cigar industry, is it common place to announce the release of a limited edition cigar, annouce the quantity to be sold, then begin distributing and selling the cigars only to find out you don't have enough product to complete the venture? Or worst yet is it common place to go into a venture not sure if your going to be able to complete the project as annouced? With the limited amount of cigars to be made in the first place shouldn't he know if he is going to have enought product to finish the project? Just all sounds like good marketing to me.

Never said he wasn't a good businessman. Just the opposite, he's one of the best. Just not sure I buy into that. JMO!!

Gary.......consumer and business owner.

ps...Bsneed51, not pointing fingers and I don't hate Pete. I even have a few of his cigars in my humi. :laugh: Oh, and 13 dollar cigars....far and few between. Now 10 dollars cigars...that's a different story!

I'll answer your questions once you answer mine.

I'll add another one. Since you're a business owner, how would you feel about someone who knew nothing about your business/motivations, but was publicly taking you to task with baseless accusations regarding your business practices?

 

[moki]

Cigars are only as rare as the manufacturer wants them to be. When you buy them, you only reinforce their behavior.

Doc.

That's true in a sense -- there are really two ways they can go about it. They can start with a target production level, and choose the tobacco they want to use based on whatever supply meets their goal. This results in a cigar that can meet production target goals, but the blend is determined by practical concerns.

Another way they can go about it is they pick the tobaccos they want to use -- some of which may be in extremely short supply -- and determine how many cigars they can produce based on the supply of these chosen tobaccos. This results in a cigar that has limited or even uncertain production levels, but is driven by the desired blend.

Most cigar makers do both. They have production cigars to be mass produced, with ample tobacco supply, and they also have limited releases that are truly limited by how much tobacco is available.

What some tobacco manufacturers do is they stockpile various tobaccos in reserve quantities to keep the production pipelines humming, and the blends consistent. They halt cigar production when these reserves get too low, and resume it once they have topped off the supply. This is necessary to preserve the blend, which is very difficult to maintain year over year.

But for limited run productions, they just make the cigar until they run out of the tobacco. Litto Gomez, for instance, can't make the Limitado I's anymore. Many of the tobaccos that went into it are simply gone; same with the Small Batch #1.

You can argue that they should never make a cigar that won't reach certain production levels, but that's really an arbitrary choice on your part.

 

[MocoBird]

Fair enough......

1) What specific insider knowledge do you have that makes it clear this is a "marketing ploy"?
No insider knowledge, just a little consumer savy and a cigar buyer for the last decade or so. I also stated it was JMO. ( just my opinion ) I have a right to that, right?

2) Are you aware of why Pete decided to produce the black labels for consumer consumption at all?
According to him he was pressured into it....I kinda have a feeling money may have been behind it too. JMO!!!

3) Can you enumerate the very real production limitations that exist in creating particular cigars?
Obisiously in this case getting the jars and wrappers.

I'll add another one. Since you're a business owner, how would you feel about someone who knew nothing about your business/motivations, but was publicly taking you to task with baseless accusations regarding your business practices?

No problem! Bring it on. Been in my field for over 20 years. I can take anything you can throw at me. I'm sure Pete can too.


..Gary

 

[Bsneed51]

ps...Bsneed51, not pointing fingers and I don't hate Pete. I even have a few of his cigars in my humi. :laugh: Oh, and 13 dollar cigars....far and few between. Now 10 dollars cigars...that's a different story!

Sorry, I knew you were not pointing the finger at me, it was a bad choice of words on my part. You just stated that you wouldn't spend the price on those, and I guess I felt like I needed to justify why I would, and did. And I have spent $25-30 on one cigar. I'm probably a dumbass for that, but there are a couple I would buy again.