• Hi Guest - Come check out all of the new CP Merch Shop! Now you can support CigarPass buy purchasing hats, apparel, and more...
    Click here to visit! here...

Who owns a Prius?

If people want to be a "friend to the environment", people have to start thinking about the entire life cycle of the products they buy, not just the period when they "use" them. The "HUMMER Greener than Prius" story isn't really as "dumb" as it sounds. Read the article (it's all over the web). It considers the impact of manufacturing, the life cycle, the consumables along the way, and the percentage or materials that is easily recyclable versus the percentage that is completely unusable at the end of the vehicles life. On the surface it sounds silly but if you read the article, they have valid points.

Regards - B.B.S.

Regarding that "Article", it has been roundly rejected for a number of reasons, some of which were laid out in my precious post/quote. However to clarify a little more about that particular "Hummer is better" BS article:

(From the same site)

Emphasis added by me.

On to the other, more significant source of these stories: About a year ago, CNW Marketing Research, Inc., of Bandon, Ore., a firm with a well-established reputation for industry forecasting, made claims last year that that hybrid vehicles used more energy in their lifetime, from creation to disposal, than many SUVs. The tagline of one of CNW’s releases was, “Hybrids Consumer More Energy in Lifetime Than Chevrolet’s Tahoe SUV.”



With the full study released in December, called “Dust to Dust: The Energy Cost of New Vehicles from Concept to Disposal,” CNW claims to assess all stages of vehicle production, including research and development, raw material production and sourcing, production and assembly, sales, operation and maintenance, and disposal of the vehicle at the end of its life.



CNW argues that its study is not geared to be an assault on hybrids, but in interpreting its results CNW states that environmentalists’ faith in hybrids as a more efficient means of transportation is misguided to a degree, as many larger vehicles with lower gas mileage actually use less energy from dust to dust. Several outlets have held on to the idea that a Prius does more damage to the environment than a HUMMER, with the CNW study as their sole source. But of course, that study aside, there’s a fatal flaw in this reporting: environmental damage and energy are not at all synonymous.



Lifecycle analysis is nothing new to the auto industry. It’s been done internally for decades with cars and all manner of household appliances and electronics. What is new this decade is that a significant portion of shoppers are considering it, spurred by the recent movement toward environmental consumerism, and pop-culture books like 2002’s Cradle to Cradle, by William McDonough and Michael Braungart, which focuses on the recycling of consumer goods.



CNW’s research was done largely ‘under the radar,’ using publicly available data along with phone and mail research and on-site analysis of assembly plants. The research included demographics such as how far the vehicle was expected to go in its lifetime and over how many years the vehicle will remain with its initial buyer. Other factors included lifetime maintenance, mechanical repairs, and accident repairs; design and development costs; manufacturing (including energy in employee commuting); administrative support; transportation to retail; dealership operations; and the cost of recycling and disposing of parts and materials.



HUMMER has, for example, established a new national network of new, standalone Quonset hut, hangar-style dedicated dealership facilities over the past several years, and a completely new assembly plant was built for the assembly of the H2 SUV, which would bring their lifetime cost up significantly.



After all the numbers had been crunched, among vehicles sold in the U.S. in the 2005 calendar year, CNW found the least expensive vehicle to be the Scion xB at 48 cents per mile in overall energy costs. The most energy-expensive vehicle was the Maybach at $11.58 per mile in energy costs over its estimated lifetime. The VW Phaeton, Rolls-Royce line, and Bentley line followed closely behind. In all of these instances, these are overall energy costs incurred from inception through disposal, not energy costs associated only with vehicle ownership.



To compare, the Toyota Prius involves $3.25 per mile in energy costs over its lifetime, according to CNW, while several full-size SUVs scored lower. A Dodge Viper involves only $2.18 in energy per mile over its lifetime. The Range Rover Sport costs $2.42, and the Cadillac Escalade costs $2.75.



“If a consumer is concerned about fuel economy because of family budgets or depleting oil supplies, it is perfectly logical to consider buying high-fuel-economy vehicles, said Art Spinella, president of CNW, in a release. “But if the concern is the broader issues such as environmental impact of energy usage, some high-mileage vehicles actually cost society more than conventional or even larger models over their lifetime. MORE--





The junkyard brawl ensues

Some of the greater cost of hybrids, according to CNW, is due to the higher cost of recycling hybrids. On an energy basis, the firm says, vehicles cost an energy-equivalent average of $119,000 to recycle, while hybrids average $140,000. But CNW later says that it calculates the Prius’s battery as costing $93 in energy to recycle.



Toyota says that credible scientific research has found that end-of-life recycling and disposal use disproportionately small amounts of energy. Although CNW does say that vehicle recycling accounts for about one-quarter of all the energy used in U.S. recycling, it also says that much of the extra energy cost of hybrids is due to their complexity, which requires more energy through many stages of its life, such as in sourcing materials and making repair.



“If Toyota can reduce the complexity of building hybrids to a simple ‘plug and play’ system whereby major hybrid electrics and electronics can be easily detached and disposed of for simplified replacement, the cost would drop dramatically. That is not the case with most hybrids today, however,” CNW says.



Toyota has responded that CNW’s study does not include any specific information on its methodology or data sources, and it does not at all agree with the bulk of scientific studies on vehicle lifecycle analysis, many of which conclude that about 85 percent of total lifetime energy use occurs in driving the vehicle. CNW’s study shows these ratios approximately reversed.



In a prepared statement, the automaker says, “Toyota has been doing lifecycle assessment for many years to evaluate various advanced vehicle technology. We…believe that the best way to assess the environmental impact of a vehicle is to do a full evaluation of all the inputs and outputs in every stage of a vehicle life.” MORE--




Fueling the controversy

David Friedman, research director of the Clean Vehicles Program at the Union of Concerned Scientists, thinks that CNW’s results and apparent methodology bring red flags. “This study has been completely contradicted by studies from MIT, Argonne National Labs and Carnegie Mellon’s Lifecycle Assessment Group. The reality is hybrids can significantly cut global warming pollution, reduce energy use, and save drivers thousands at the pump,” commented Friedman.



CNW’s figures, for example, show that the Civic Hybrid can cost nearly $165,000 more over its lifetime, “dust to dust,” than the standard Civic, which is a difficult figure to swallow, even considering the extra development, materials, and disposal of the Hybrid variant. Honda’s Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) system is a mild hybrid system and many engineers have admired its elegant and simple design and function, considering the efficiency gains.



The CNW study fuels further controversy by alleging that automakers — specifically mentioning Toyota — don’t include the energy that goes into modules that are built by suppliers and then shipped to the assembly plant. But Toyota insists that its methods include all materials and components that go into the vehicle, not only those manufactured internally by the automaker.



Toyota concedes that there is more energy required in the materials production stage for its hybrids, but says that it is overwhelmingly made up by less energy used during its driving lifetime.




But Toyota also says that the study uses an unrealistically low estimated lifetime for hybrids, and that there's no data to support its assumptions in this.
For instance, according to the study the average Prius is expected to go 109,000 miles over its lifetime, while a Hummer H1 would go 379,000 miles. CNW says about hybrids: “…these are generally secondary vehicles in a household OR they are driven in restricted or short range environments such as college campuses or retirement neighborhoods.”



One other area of the study that some critics have found to be misleading is that CNW only included the so-called design and development cost of models sold so far, not on the potential volume of that technology in the long run.



In a section that seems to be leading to the dismissal of existing hybrids as having technology with a short shelf life, the study goes on to say that “…many of the hybrid models — such as the Insight and Prius — are early renditions of the technology that are being or soon will be replaced by more efficient and less complicated versions effectively making the current versions obsolete within a few short years.”



In a similar manner, the methodology also looks to take into account how many vehicles have been produced by existing factories so far, not how many vehicles might be produced over the lifetime of the factories, so Toyota and other automakers who have recently established more efficient factories lose out, even though the facilities might be more efficient. The firm also includes the energy importance of where assembly plants are located, in factors such as how far, and how, its employees commute.


Just some food for thought.

Oh, and the CNW group that published "This study" is not a scientific body at all, they are a marketing agency that has done work for American car makers, who in the past have suffered due to competition from Foreign car makers.

In addition, for all the talk about diesels, no mention of the environmental impact of diesel polution, production, transport, etc...? If batteries and whatever point source pollution caused by manufacturing or recycling is the biggest draw back the some hold, compare that to the non-point source pollution that is caused my a fleet of exponentially less efficient vehicles burning fuel. (just some other thoughts).
 
I thought we weren't supposed to discuss religion here?

;)
 
....sigh. Well, drive what you like, like what you drive. If you think the Prius is the answer to all, then by all means - buy one.

I'll stick with my 45+ MPG VW diesel for now and look forward to a 5-Series BMW BluTec diesel that will get 30+ doing 80 on the freeway with the AC on, without the dangerous, toxic, expensive battery required for hybrids.

B.B.S.

I thought we weren't supposed to discuss religion here?

;)
....or politics...!!.... :laugh:
 
Not trying to rain on everyone's parade, but I saw on ABC news last night, where a man was getting 94.3 MPG in a Honda Insight. It's all on how you drive these cars that makes them fuel efficient. Take a look at HyperMilers...
Link1 Link2
If you want better fuel efficiency from any car, I recommend reading some of things they do.

Hey BBS, what do you think about the Chevrolet Volt and other cars that plan on using lithium-ion battery, instead of the nickel?
 
Hey BBS, what do you think about the Chevrolet Volt and other cars that plan on using lithium-ion battery, instead of the nickel?
The problem with most all of the current battery technology is that recycling them just doesn't pencil out. There's a ton of info that Googles right up. A decent summary;

The reason why more lithium ion batteries aren't recycled boils down to simple economics: the scrap value of batteries doesn't amount to much - perhaps $100 per ton, Cheret says. In contrast, the cost of collecting, sorting and shipping used batteries to a recycler exceeds the scrap value, so batteries tend to be thrown away. Unfortunately, the market does not factor in the social cost of disposal, nor does it factor in the fact that recycling metals such as cobalt has a much lower economic and environmental cost than mining raw materials. So we throw them away by the millions.
NiMiH, Li-Ion, etc....the heavy metals and other toxic byproducts that get produced as the battery is used to death make them scary landfill candidates.....yet due to economics, that's where they typically end up. They don't have to end up there, but they typically do.

B.B.S.
 
Maybe I am wrong here, but considering the production waste of a hybrid V. any comparable car, the "average" mpg per car, useful lifetime and finally the reuse of the cars parts and scrap. I think it comes up as a wash. I'd end up taking the car that it cheapest to own over the lifetime, yet with *some* power.
 
I think they are on the right track with alternative forms of energy.
I am OK with reducing our "Carbon footprint'

they have a lot of work to do on these cars before they get it right.

I just want to do burnouts in the desert man

IMG_9817_11X14.jpg
 
My dad owns a prius, for the fact that he loved the built in GPS (thing is huge), touch screen interface (thing is huge), and hates paying for gas. I don't think he gives a sh&# about what it does for the environment. He doesn't drive it anymore, he prefers the element we've got now, for whatever reason. Both cars look stupid. I will say the Prius drives well though, much better than my camry.
 
I will say the Prius drives well though, much better than my camry.

In what way does the Prius drive better?
Which Camry do you have?


Now for my 2 cents...

Diesels do get great fuel economy. But they have the potential to cause lung cancer with particulate matter. This is forcing OEMs to install Diesel Particulate Filters (DPFs) on vehicles, which need to be cleaned out. How do they clean them? That's right, dump a bunch of fuel in the exhaust and burn the particles out. This isn't a very good use of the energy. Fortunately, the US came on board and dropped the allowable sulfur limits in Diesel fuel, which greatly reduces the amount of particulates in Diesel exhaust.

Battery powered hybrids are pretty cool. I think the environmental aspect that has been mentioned above should be looked at closely. Usually, customers only care about the "on the road" costs though, so this helps sell hybrids.

As for Hydrogen power & Fuel Cells, I'm surprised nobody is mentioning the effect of high amounts of water vapor in the atmosphere. Isn't water vapor a green-house gas also?

And plug-in hybrids & electric vehicles. Granted, the vehicles have little or no emissions. But the U.S. produces something like 60% of its electricity from coal-fired power plants. So to fill all these batteries, the power plants will have to produce more carbon dioxide to keep up with demand. And again, I'm not an environmental engineer, but what is worse, the nickel & lithium or uranium?

The point of my long-winded reply is that cars are like everything else. There's good sides and bad sides to every choice out there. Kind of like cigars. Really cheap ones tend to have lower quality, while the really fine ones tend to cost a small fortune. Feel free to continue this discussion. I like hearing what everyone has to say about this material.
 
BBS, you hit the nail right on it's snobby head.

Jeremy Clarkson is pretty king too. I like the fact he will always voice his opinion, no matter how politically incorrect. If only more journalists were like that.
 
Top