60 replies to this topic

[Ginseng]

Gentlemen and ladies,

After reading brother Wurm's post, I felt compelled to present another perspective on the subject at hand which is, ostensibly, the insensitive treatment of new members of the forum.

First, this is a cigar forum on the surface but what it really is at its heart is a thriving and diverse community. If one accepts this, then it follows that first and foremost we are not all about the "stuff." The stuff being cigars, the paraphernalia of cigar enjoyment, or sources and vendors. I propose that what we are about is sharing our experiences and our knowledge all while having fun in various ways which may incidentally include the "stuff." I can honestly say that the friendships I've forged here far outweigh any material, tangible aspect of the hobby that brings us together.

Second, this place is in reality a social setting and not simply a series of file folders in which to deposit or extract information or goods. While there is much information to be found in the archived posts of hundreds of enthusiasts over the years, the state of knowledge is advancing rapidly and much of the most current understanding exists in the minds of members. So, information resides in the documentary history of prior posts but living wisdom is crafted in the moment, in live interaction with each other. In order to efficiently and appropriately access the expertise that is contained on here on CigarPass, one needs to first become conversant in the basics, the fundamentals if you will.

This responsibility is incumbent upon the new members to demonstrate that they have made a genuine effort to search out these basics prior to posting a thread. But when one doesn't first do so, why is it that many members become incensed? There are several potential reasons:

A. Those who have spent time here and contributed to the knowledge base contained in the record of posts have put in the work to put it out there for all to see and learn from. It is fulfilling to see that our efforts have lasting benefit and value. For new members to ignore the wealth of information in these posts that is the fruit of our experience is a disappointment.

B. Those who have come before you have put time and effort into this community in many various ways. For example, to amuse, to inform, to question, to express support, to share the joys and pains in our lives, and many more. This place is of us because we have invested ourselves in it. If you want to be a part of this, it is required that you see this, accept this, understand it, and act accordingly. Realize that a place here is not entitled to anyone. It is earned on a daily basis through our words, actions, and consideration of fellow members. When a newcomer expends not but the slightest effort, it can be perceived as an attempt to "cut the line" to gain access to that which they have not yet rightfully earned.

C. Forum resources are finite and as the forum grows ever larger and the number of members and posts accelerates, signal-to-noise becomes a legitimate concern when mining for information. That is to say that when searching for information, it is faster and easier the fewer duplicate threads that exist. When people complain about the search functions, two things contribute to the sense of frustration. First, the limitations of the search engine itself. Second, the necessity of wading through multiple nearly identical threads each with a dozen or more posts.

That's my analysis and I hope that there are some insights there for all members to consider, whether short or long timers. But now let's get onto the practical aspects of the above.

1. When directed to do a search. Say thank you, do the search, tell us what you found. It will almost certainly help not just yourself but the dozen or more non-posters who are looking on and reading. And, it will show that you are at least aware of points A-C, above.

2. When directed to post an intro in the Intro Forum. Say thank you, post an intro and then begin participating. You'll get one pass for not reading the forum headers. One. Because after all, why should you expect anyone to help you, if you don't show that you care enough to learn the basic layout of the place.

3. If you are new here, then by definition you don't know anyone. You don't know about them, who they are, what they're about and so it makes no sense whatsoever that you should take personal offense at anything they say. Why would you? Who are they to you that their opinion of you or anything you say or do should be something to get upset about? Listen to the good that people have to share. Pay attention to advice given especially if it comes from several members. Ignore what you might otherwise take offense to. Getting worked up early on for no rational reason is ludicrous and only leads to unpleasant ends.

Now, I have lately seen some newer members step in to help out even newer members and that is a great thing. As the community grows, this home-grown, ever expanding base of those who "get it" is going to be absolutely essential to maintaining the atmosphere and upholding the ideals and values of the community.

The benefits of membership in good standing at CigarPass are substantial and multidimensional. As such, it only makes sense that it is worth the effort it takes to understand the people and ways here.

Wilkey

[AVB]

Geez Wilkey


Search, Read, Pay attention, Post


That about cover it

[Mike33]

Couldn't have said it any better Wilkey!

[LilBastage]

Good post, Wilkey.

Tying in the old "Read more, post less" suggestion for newer members would just about finish this off as far as my thoughts go. I've said it before, but I read ever post on this board for several weeks before I even signed up. After registering I posted an intro and posted very rarely. I got a good feel for the place. This helped me a great deal in avoiding the "step on your own dick" phase of my newbness. (At least I don't think it has happened yet.)

[TugBoat]

Can this be made a sticky? Wilkey, great post. This really sums up everything someone is told when they initially make an error. This topic would be a great place to send people.

[Jonesy]

Well said Wilkey. This should be required reading for anyone that comes in the virtual CP door.

[grateful1]

So, that's how you spell obstensibly!

[Keystone_Raider]

Good lord but that is a bit long winded don't you think?!?!?!?
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Actually that is very well put Wilkey. You speak from a logical viewpoint instead of an emotional one which is a quality that more board members need to utilize.

[grateful1]

Edit - My apologies.

Edited by grateful1, 16 August 2007 - 11:18 PM.

[cody5thou]

Great post Wilkey. This is great info for any noob or vistior! Thanks again Wilkey for the hard work you put into this great community

[MX]

I am amazed everyday. Wilkey, you are truly one of a kind Sir. This is just about as well said as I think it could ever be.

Thank you , and to all the other CP Vets for all the help and enjoyment that you have provided me.

Tim

[Diesel Grinch]

Gentlemen and ladies,

After reading brother Wurm's post, I felt compelled to present another perspective on the subject at hand which is, ostensibly, the insensitive treatment of new members of the forum.

First, this is a cigar forum on the surface but what it really is at its heart is a thriving and diverse community. If one accepts this, then it follows that first and foremost we are not all about the "stuff." The stuff being cigars, the paraphernalia of cigar enjoyment, or sources and vendors. I propose that what we are about is sharing our experiences and our knowledge all while having fun in various ways which may incidentally include the "stuff." I can honestly say that the friendships I've forged here far outweigh any material, tangible aspect of the hobby that brings us together.

Second, this place is in reality a social setting and not simply a series of file folders in which to deposit or extract information or goods. While there is much information to be found in the archived posts of hundreds of enthusiasts over the years, the state of knowledge is advancing rapidly and much of the most current understanding exists in the minds of members. So, information resides in the documentary history of prior posts but living wisdom is crafted in the moment, in live interaction with each other. In order to efficiently and appropriately access the expertise that is contained on here on CigarPass, one needs to first become conversant in the basics, the fundamentals if you will.

This responsibility is incumbent upon the new members to demonstrate that they have made a genuine effort to search out these basics prior to posting a thread. But when one doesn't first do so, why is it that many members become incensed? There are several potential reasons:

A. Those who have spent time here and contributed to the knowledge base contained in the record of posts have put in the work to put it out there for all to see and learn from. It is fulfilling to see that our efforts have lasting benefit and value. For new members to ignore the wealth of information in these posts that is the fruit of our experience is a disappointment.

B. Those who have come before you have put time and effort into this community in many various ways. For example, to amuse, to inform, to question, to express support, to share the joys and pains in our lives, and many more. This place is of us because we have invested ourselves in it. If you want to be a part of this, it is required that you see this, accept this, understand it, and act accordingly. Realize that a place here is not entitled to anyone. It is earned on a daily basis through our words, actions, and consideration of fellow members. When a newcomer expends not but the slightest effort, it can be perceived as an attempt to "cut the line" to gain access to that which they have not yet rightfully earned.

C. Forum resources are finite and as the forum grows ever larger and the number of members and posts accelerates, signal-to-noise becomes a legitimate concern when mining for information. That is to say that when searching for information, it is faster and easier the fewer duplicate threads that exist. When people complain about the search functions, two things contribute to the sense of frustration. First, the limitations of the search engine itself. Second, the necessity of wading through multiple nearly identical threads each with a dozen or more posts.

That's my analysis and I hope that there are some insights there for all members to consider, whether short or long timers. But now let's get onto the practical aspects of the above.

1. When directed to do a search. Say thank you, do the search, tell us what you found. It will almost certainly help not just yourself but the dozen or more non-posters who are looking on and reading. And, it will show that you are at least aware of points A-C, above.

2. When directed to post an intro in the Intro Forum. Say thank you, post an intro and then begin participating. You'll get one pass for not reading the forum headers. One. Because after all, why should you expect anyone to help you, if you don't show that you care enough to learn the basic layout of the place.

3. If you are new here, then by definition you don't know anyone. You don't know about them, who they are, what they're about and so it makes no sense whatsoever that you should take personal offense at anything they say. Why would you? Who are they to you that their opinion of you or anything you say or do should be something to get upset about? Listen to the good that people have to share. Pay attention to advice given especially if it comes from several members. Ignore what you might otherwise take offense to. Getting worked up early on for no rational reason is ludicrous and only leads to unpleasant ends.

Now, I have lately seen some newer members step in to help out even newer members and that is a great thing. As the community grows, this home-grown, ever expanding base of those who "get it" is going to be absolutely essential to maintaining the atmosphere and upholding the ideals and values of the community.

The benefits of membership in good standing at CigarPass are substantial and multidimensional. As such, it only makes sense that it is worth the effort it takes to understand the people and ways here.

Wilkey

Wilkey you sure do love to type don't you? You don't happen to work for the goverment?

I take the clift notes version next time.

Don't pin it because it's more fun if they use the search button to find it.


DG
nice post.

[Wurm]

Well at least a bit of good came from my thread lol.

Thanks Wilkey

[moki]

After reading brother Wurm's post, I felt compelled to present another perspective on the subject at hand which is, ostensibly, the insensitive treatment of new members of the forum.

[--snip--]

This responsibility is incumbent upon the new members to demonstrate that they have made a genuine effort to search out these basics prior to posting a thread. But when one doesn't first do so, why is it that many members become incensed?

Use the search function and you'll find your answer.

[Devil Doc]

As usual, an excellent assessment. Now, I'd like to offer mine:Newbs with Prickly Heat. Take a cool bath with cornstarch before posting. That is all.

Doc.

[tone-ny]

Brother Wilkey's post is what it is about!

But, brother AVB gets it!

Thank you gentlemen

[Mrepp]

I can honestly say that the friendships I've forged here far outweigh any material, tangible aspect of the hobby that brings us together.

Friendship, I consider you all associates at best . Well said Wilkey.

[jfields]

Good post Wilkey! I guess I can see where both you and Wurm are coming from. On one hand I can see your point about a feeling of disdain, for members (new) who seem like they can't be bothered to use the information out there.
On the other hand I can kind of see where Wurm is coming from with the way we sometimes jump down the new guys throat for a "Newb mistake".
I suspect some of these post are made in an eagerness to jump in and do what they think is contributing/building relationships, a "Hey look at me, I'm here" mentality.
These are the people that I think we should give a pass (or two) to, and help point them on the right path.

On a different note..............I'm all for tearing a new one into the new members that come on here just to use this as their personal Ebay. The guy that thinks he can be disrespectful to a well liked, established member. Or, ones that think they can show a total disregard for the rules and traditions established since the inception of CP.

The biggest thing I think is, how someone reacts to being "corrected". If you just say "Oh, my bad" and move on, I think that person just went up several notches in everyones book that is watching.
Getting defensive, no matter how right you think you are is never the answer when you are a guest in someone elses house. The outcome always favors the owner who doesn't have to leave.

[CgarDan]

Great advice Wilkey !!!!!!!!!!!!!!



And that PHD degree is not wasted as I can see from the quality of your writing

[SamClemmons]

I started to read this, honest, but all that got through was blah, blah, blah. I've never been a big fan of stating the obvious ad infinitum. However, it makes Wilkey feel better and I'm all for that. If it isn't written down he'll write it down... even if everyone already knows it. I bet if you saw his desk, all the pads and pencils would be meticulously placed... side by side, all corners squared with papers neatly and fanatically stacked. It's who he is and I'm all for that too.

They are newbs, hello. They'll either get it or they won't. You can't like everyone.

NA