Random musings

Well I haven't been smoking cigars too long, maybe a little less than two years, so take this with a grain of salt. I have however smoked well over a hundred Cubans and god knows how many NC's, and I have to say the Cubans are way, way, way ahead of the NC's. I know many people believe that NC's are getting better than Cubans. These people who claim this are almost always Americans. Hmmm, the only country with an embargo against Cuba thinks other cigars are comparable. In other countries they can't seem to give NC's away, or at least that's my possibly ill informed impression. Opus X, Anejo, Padron, Tatuaje and Padilla Miami are among the best NC's in my opinion but I'll take an average Cuban when it's on over any of them any day.

The best deal in Cuban cigars I have come across is Saint Luis Rey. The aren't that popular so therefore they are cheaper. I just smoked a Petite Corona from 05 and it was great. Yeah they would probably get better with age but they are already better than any NC I have had. For the money it seems unnecessary to age these, smoking them right off the truck they are totally worth the money. I have had some well aged Cubans so I do know what age will do and they are better with age. Another great one for the money is Ramon Allones, I have yet to have a bad one but haven't smoked enough to make a definitive statement on them. Cohibas and Trinidad's are some of the best but not always worth the extra money.

This post is not meant to cause controversy. It's mostly meant to help fellow newbies, and possibly to be informed differently by someone with more experience. I could be wrong and I'm always open minded to other opinions. And after all it's just a matter of opinion. So most importantly, what do you guys think?

-mark

Mark,

Even with 10 years in cigars and a little less than that with Habanos, I'm still just getting my feet wet. But let me comment anyway

First from a general sense, over this last decade, I have found found my ability to enjoy, appreciate and judge cigars to have deepened and become more critical when I want to be. This has caused me to become more aware of what I'm smoking and not only whether I like it but why or why not and to use that to further refine the selection of my smokes. This is a general result of mindful experience that might be common to many smokers out there.

Second, I've come to enjoy the various Cuban taste profiles and even gravitate toward them in preference. Unlike many others, I have never been able to put together an impression of the "Cuban twang." To me, each marca has a distincitive profile that I find pleasing. However, Habanos on the whole, taste noteably different than cigars of non-Cuban origin.

Third, while there are not many non-Cuban cigars that I would choose over a "good" Habanos, there are a few. Anything Padron, OneOff, Tatuaje, LGC Serie R, LGC Reserva Figurado, Ashton VSG and maybe a just a few others. The list of things that I'd choose over a "very good" Habanos is shorter still and primarily a consequence of my personal taste and not some objective measure of quality. A "great" Habanos stands at the top of the heap. At the bottom of the heap are many non-Cubans as well as mediocre Habanos.

I think that what you are seeing is the refinement of your taste in cigars with experience. Sure, there are some aspects of this that are more objective-like, but the more meaningful effect, by far, is the growth and development of your personal and very subjective tastes. Although you say "Cubans are way ahead," do you mean most Cubans? Cubans you've smoked? Aged? New? How many marcas? Against what non-Cuban? In what settings? With what accompaniments? Personally, there are some Habanos I wouldn't smoke even if given to me. I'd rather fire up a Padron 2K maduro.

Thanks for the post though. I know many folks will pass through this point on their journey. I never did really because I've always (until recently) smoked more NCs than Cubans. Although I've often been captivated by their mystique, I've tried to make sure I experience broadly so that my love affair can grow into a lifelong love. To pull up a fairly trite aphorism, I used to be in love with Cuban cigars, but now I love them...along with certain others.

Wilkey

Fyodor said:

Well I haven't been smoking cigars too long, maybe a little less than two years, so take this with a grain of salt. I have however smoked well over a hundred Cubans and god knows how many NC's, and I have to say the Cubans are way, way, way ahead of the NC's.

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I think you prefer Cubans because that is what you accostomed to. If you had NC's more than Cubansin the begining, you may think differently. I personally think many NC's are way way way ahead in terms of construction.

Flavor is always subjective. And apparently, NC flavor doesn't do it for you. That's too bad because there are a lot of good NC's out there.

Fyodor said:

I know many people believe that NC's are getting better than Cubans. These people who claim this are almost always Americans. Hmmm, the only country with an embargo against Cuba thinks other cigars are comparable. In other countries they can't seem to give NC's away, or at least that's my possibly ill informed impression. Opus X, Anejo, Padron, Tatuaje and Padilla Miami are among the best NC's in my opinion but I'll take an average Cuban when it's on over any of them any day.

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In my opinion, this is because historically, non-cubans didn't have the quality raw products or quality farms/factories to produce quality cigars. People around the world smoked Cubans because they were the best quality product out there. Because people outside of the US grew up on Cuban cigars, they will continue to buy them in greater quantities than NC's. But the fact of the matter is now there is plenty of quality tobacco and plenty of quality cigar factories outside of Cuba now. Personally I think your view is biased to begin with, but hey, that's your right.

Fyodor said:

The best deal in Cuban cigars I have come across is Saint Luis Rey. The aren't that popular so therefore they are cheaper. I just smoked a Petite Corona from 05 and it was great. Yeah they would probably get better with age but they are already better than any NC I have had. For the money it seems unnecessary to age these, smoking them right off the truck they are totally worth the money. I have had some well aged Cubans so I do know what age will do and they are better with age. Another great one for the money is Ramon Allones, I have yet to have a bad one but haven't smoked enough to make a definitive statement on them. Cohibas and Trinidad's are some of the best but not always worth the extra money.

This post is not meant to cause controversy. It's mostly meant to help fellow newbies, and possibly to be informed differently by someone with more experience. I could be wrong and I'm always open minded to other opinions. And after all it's just a matter of opinion. So most importantly, what do you guys think?

-mark

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I think this post is exactly what you claim it to be, an opinion. But, I don't think that it is helpful to the regular newbie here. To paraphrase your post, "Basically, almost all Cubans will be better than all but a handfull of non-cubans." A newbie may take this as truth, and seek out Habanos which are not easy to come by to most newbs here, and not take the time and try a lot of NC's. Therefor perhaps you ruined this persons chance of trying something he may really really like, just because he took your word on this subject.
Now I don't think you purposely meant any harm, but I don't see this post as something helpful for a newbler. But, that is only my opinion, and not fact.

Emo

I agree with Emo. I have smoked many Habanos. Ihave found, again, taste is subjective but construction better with NC's. I think the Padron Serie1926 is better than some Cubans. Your taste should dictate on the cigars you prefer. I like spicey cigars with voluminous amounts of smkoke. However, for a milder choice, I prefer a Diplomaticos No. 4. I have also found that I have no patience for a big cigar anymore; so, I prefer smaller size cigars. I prefer the FFOPX 4's and Power Ranger. Just a thought.

Thanks for the well thought out reply Wilkey, I knew I could at least count on you to give some valuable input. Now, to answer some of you questions:

When I say that Cubans are way ahead I mean that in general terms, as in judging the average cuban against an average NC or for that matter one of the better NC's. This Judgment is based almost entirely on taste. That is really the main factor in a cigar for me, considering that the rest of the aspects are acceptable. A cigar could have perfect construction, draw, burn, appearance ect., but if it doesn't have an exceptional taste it means nothing to me. I have no problem discerning the "Cuban Twang". To me tobacco from Cuba or Nicaragua or Honduras or the Dominican Republic are all very distinctly different and not hard to tell apart most of the time.

"do you mean most Cubans? Cubans you've smoked? Aged? New?"

Well I can only judge from the ones I have smoked and I feel that I probably preferred 85% of them to my favorite NC's. That includes aged and not. And again, this is just my opinion and personal experience. I actually wish I didn't feel this way considering the embargo and all.

"How many marcas? "

I've had- Cohiba, Partagas, Bolivar, Montecristo, Ramon Allones, Guantanamera, Romeo y Julieta, Trinidad, H. Upmann, San Cristobal, El Rey Del Mundo, Hoyo, Saint Luis Rey and Sancho Panza. Maybe more but this is what I remember and have in my cigar journal. In many of these brands I have had several different vitola's. So this is what I base my "general experience" on. Guantanamera and Sancho Panza are the only two I didn't like. I would definitely take a descent NC over those.

"Against what non-Cuban? In what settings? With what accompaniments?"

All non- Cubans, any setting, with any accompaniments. I prefer smoking after eating and with wine, beer or coffee. To me a Cuban is better with any Wine any Beer or any coffee. The match may not always be perfect but I will always prefer the slightly mis-matched Cuban over the better matched NC.

In the end, with my palate whether it be refined or otherwise, I almost always prefer the taste of Cuban tobacco. I do of course smoke plenty of non-Cubans. I like to have variety even if I consider them a bit inferior.

-mark


P.S. thanks for bearing with me on this worn out much discussed topic.

Thanks for the replies Emo and QuePsiPhiSmkr, I posted my response without seeing your comments.

EMO- You bring up very valid points about why other countries smoke Cubans predominantly. I am sure there is much truth to that. I hope you are wrong about me corrupting the newbies. I assume since most live in America they are going to smoke their fair share of NC's whether they like it or not so I doubt they will miss out on the NC experience, whether they believe in my opinions or not.

Great reply Emo, I have to concur. Great cigars are being made in many places.

In my experience, on the surface at least, I tend to agree with Mark. They just have a better taste, at least for me.

However, I also wonder how much of that is because I view them as forbidden fruit? Do I go in just automatically thinking they will be better, just because of where they're from?

It will be interesting one day (if it ever happens) when the embargo lifts and you can go down to your local B&M and pick up any cigar you want. Will they still taste as good when they're easy to get?

Fyodor said:

Well I haven't been smoking cigars too long, maybe a little less than two years, so take this with a grain of salt. I have however smoked well over a hundred Cubans and god knows how many NC's, and I have to say the Cubans are way, way, way ahead of the NC's. I know many people believe that NC's are getting better than Cubans. These people who claim this are almost always Americans.

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Actually, I think you'll find it's quite the opposite. Americans tend to covet Cubans more than those in other countries who can buy them easily. I've had numerous people outside of the USA scouring for PAMs and other premium cigars that have a unique taste profile unavailable in cigars from Cuba.

In the end, they are just cigars, what country they come from matters as much as what country the wine you drink comes from, which is to say not at all. Smoke the cigars you enjoy the taste of; it is unlikely to be "Cubans" but rather certain lines of Cuban cigars that are to you liking. Ditto with cigars from elsewhere.

Most of us here have access to any cigars we want, from any country. There's no real mystique involved, it's just a matter of what tastes you happen to prefer. Some Cuban brands I love, some I think are shit, and others do little for me. Same with cigars from elsewhere.

moki said:

Actually, I think you'll find it's quite the opposite. Americans tend to covet Cubans more than those in other countries who can buy them easily. I've had numerous people outside of the USA scouring for PAMs and other premium cigars that have a unique taste profile unavailable in cigars from Cuba.

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This is just an uninformed guess but I think these people have to scour for NC's because they aren't commonly sold in other countries, which is because there is a low demand for them. Only the minority are interested in them. Or perhaps companies like Padron are more interested in dealing with the U.S and don't offer these cigars abroad. From what I've heard about Hong Kong, which is where many of the serious collectors are, they could care a less about NC's.

All in all it really doesn't matter. I just wanted to share my thoughts on the subject and see how many agree and disagree.

Fyodor said:

This is just an uninformed guess but I think these people have to scour for NC's because they aren't commonly sold in other countries, which is because there is a low demand for them. Only the minority are interested in them. Or perhaps companies like Padron are more interested in dealing with the U.S and don't offer these cigars abroad. From what I've heard about Hong Kong, which is where many of the serious collectors are, they could care a less about NC's.

All in all it really doesn't matter. I just wanted to share my thoughts on the subject and see how many agree and disagree.

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You have it somewhat backwards regarding "NC" cigars not being sold in other countries; the USA is the world's largest market. The Cuban embargo offers up an EXTREMELY lucrative market for folks like Padrón, Fuente, etc. Most of them export to other countries solely to maintain their worldwide trademark status; it isn't considered a high priority to bother with international distribution when you have the largest single market largely captive.

Serious wine collectors outside of the USA could care less about Napa/Sonoma wines as well. Does that mean they suck?

Again, smoke what tastes good to you. Getting hung up on what country it comes from is the height of stupidity. If you enjoy a cigar, great! Buy more of them. If you don't like it, don't buy more of them. Simple.

What's a good wine? The wine you like the taste of. Same with cigars.

I am not getting hung up on Cubans because they are made in Cuba or that they are illegal here or because the world wide consensus is that they are better. I like Cubans because they taste Cuban. The soil dictates the taste quite a bit. If I wasn't hung up on Cuba it would be hard to find cigars with the specific taste profile I prefer. Your not going to get a NC that taste anything like a Cuban. Tatuaje's aren't even that close IMHO.

Mark,

An understanding of the market situation is yet another aspect of this hobby that is worthwhile to have. Moki makes a good point about market share. Recent information from Altadis indicates that their non-Cuban cigar sales to the USA alone comprise 53% of total volume while all Cuban cigars worldwide make up only 14% . So, that gives you an idea of exactly where the "Habanos phenomenon" fits into the grand scheme of things. And keep in mind, the Altadis brands are only one of several portfolios at play in the US market.

The US market is huge. Because of this, when the embargo is lifted, though no one can predict the nature of the effect of this opening, one thing is for sure. It will be chaotic and near catastrophic for the first 3-5 years. That is, unless the folks at Altadis are exceptionally shrewd and of iron will.

Wilkey

Fyodor said:

I am not getting hung up on Cubans because they are made in Cuba or that they are illegal here or because the world wide consensus is that they are better. I like Cubans because they taste Cuban. The soil dictates the taste quite a bit. If I wasn't hung up on Cuba it would be hard to find cigars with the specific taste profile I prefer. Your not going to get a NC that taste anything like a Cuban. Tatuaje's aren't even that close IMHO.

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What Cuban taste? What does a Partagas have at all in common with a Guantanamera?

What tastes do Quai d'Orsay have at all in common with Bolivars?

What tastes do San Cristobals have at all in common with Cohibas (both of which I happen to love, btw)?

Nothing that I can discern. The tastes profiles of these cigars are very, very different. Claiming you like "Cuban cigars" is like claiming you like "French wines" -- it means nothing, there is a wide range of tastes available, and a wide range of quality, and you're not going to like all of 'em.

Smoke what you like; if you happen to find yourself preferring mostly cigars from Cuba, more power to you, enjoy 'em.

Seriously Moki, those cigars you mention do taste different but also do have a flavor in common. Give me any puro from any of the major cigar countries and nine times out of ten I can tell you what country it's from. I doubt I'm the only one. Not that all cigars from a particular country taste exactly the same but they do have certain simular characteristics in flavor. Actually it is also the same with wine but that also has to do with the type of grapes that are grown in different climates. Soil is a huge factor. Have you ever heard of terroir?
If you don't heres a deffinition-

A " terroir " is a group of vineyards (or even vines) from the same region, belonging to a specific appellation, and sharing the same type of soil, weather conditions, grapes and wine making savoir-faire, which contribute to give its specific personality to the wine.

-mark

Fyodor said:

Seriously Moki, those cigars you mention do taste different but also do have a flavor in common. Give me any puro from any of the major cigar countries and nine times out of ten I can tell you what country it's from. I doubt I'm the only one. Not that all cigars from a particular country taste exactly the same but they do have certain simular characteristics in flavor.

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Okay, I'll bite. What's the "common flavor" between the cigar pairings I mentioned above?

Partagas & Guantanamera?

Quai d'Orsay & Bolivar?

San Cristobal & Cohiba?

...and do you like all of these brands yourself (as in, go out and buy boxes of them all)?

Fyodor said:

A " terroir " is a group of vineyards (or even vines) from the same region, belonging to a specific appellation, and sharing the same type of soil, weather conditions, grapes and wine making savoir-faire, which contribute to give its specific personality to the wine.

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I'm aware; I'm also aware that French wine sales are way, way down. Certainly among collectors, the great French labels remain untouched, but wines from Chile, Australia, Sonoma, CA, Napa, CA, and even the Finger Lakes in NY are doing quite well in the market.

French wines have a long steeped history, and as part of the cultural subconscious, they are "the best" -- but that image has faded somewhat in recent years. Cuba still holds onto more cigar caché in absolute terms, but I think it's certainly true that cigar makers outside of Cuba are turning out some great product.

I know people who smoke "only Cuban cigars" and turn their nose up at anything non-Cuban who have been smoking nothing but fakes. I also know people who have never smoked a cigar in their lives, but say that they want to try a "Cuban cigar." It shows you the power of image.

Which of course isn't to say that there aren't great cigars from Cuba; there are. A large number of the boxes I have put away are Cubans, because I happen to like those particular brands. But there are also non-Cuban cigar brands that I absolutely love, for which there is no Cuban that tastes anything like 'em.

Padróns, Opus, Añejos, VSGs, Davidoff MBs, AVO LE05s, and so on all have very distinctive flavor profiles, none of which have Cuban counterparts. So again, it all comes down to smoking what you like, and ignoring the label that says where it was manufactured. Because in the end, who cares?

Well, at those points we definitely agree. Thanks for the insightful and lively debate Moki!

-mark

Good points all. In wine they say, "Like what you drink and drink what you like." I've always said the same with cigars:

Like what you smoke
Smoke what you like.



edited for spleling.

Strayvector said:

Good points all. In wine they say, "Like what you drink and drink what you like." I've always said the same with cigars:

Like what you smoke
Smoke what you like.

edited for spleling.

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Hey Sam,

You misspelled "spelling"

Wilkey

I beg to differ, you're the one with the misspleling.