Fake Davidoff and Dunhills sold on CP

[insight]

Matt fwiw nobody was in a position to say anything authoritative on this until very recently so I don't think the pass/trade mishaps could have been avoided. The source, Bruce, has been very well respected in the larger cigar community and calling him out without having your ducks in a row would be comparable to calling out a guy like Devin or Mattr.

 

[mmburtch]

Just to reiterate: we are talking about what approaches 7 figures here and spans numerous boards.

There always those looking for attention, but for the most part, there are very few posts claiming to have bought $$$$ worth of vintage cigars. Part of that is simple human greed, keeping the moochers at bay. Part of it is protecting sources, possibly at the request of the seller. The greater part is that cigars really shouldn't be about bravado so most of us keep our purchases to ourselves.

Maybe though, if more people talked about acquiring these VHTF cigars, someone would have noticed there were way too many of them on the market.

Matt fwiw nobody was in a position to say anything authoritative on this until very recently so I don't think the pass/trade mishaps could have been avoided. The source, Bruce, has been very well respected in the larger cigar community and calling him out without having your ducks in a row would be comparable to calling out a guy like Devin or Mattr.

I can't call out MattR, he's a disgusting individual, but we love him.


Oh, yeah, I also have his uncashed check in my wallet.

 

[grateful1]

Just to reiterate: we are talking about what approaches 7 figures here and spans numerous boards.

There always those looking for attention, but for the most part, there are very few posts claiming to have bought $$ worth of vintage cigars. Part of that is simple human greed, keeping the moochers at bay. Part of it is protecting sources, possibly at the request of the seller. The greater part is that cigars really shouldn't be about bravado so most of us keep our purchases to ourselves.

Maybe though, if more people talked about acquiring these VHTF cigars, someone would have noticed there were way too many of them on the market.

It was noticed...years ago, but the home board of origin, well, likes to keep things tidy.

Regardless, this sale was on here. If Tim was duped, he can go after his seller!

I'm sure no answer will come out quickly. I just don't want this getting lost in the other thread.

 

[insight]

Agreed Gary, this certainly deserves its own thread.

 

[souldog]

I guess my question more than anything would be the extent to which someone like Tim, or someone who traded or passed these should be held accountable. Obviously I don't know for a fact that Tim didn't know these were suspect but my guess is that he had no clue. Obviously these were well enough done that they didn't get questioned immediately, and it took some people with a great deal of knowledge to sort this out and come to a final conclussion.

Obviously it goes back to knowing your source, but at some point even good people get fooled by well done fakes.

I think there's a lot of wisdom in this post, and I'm not just saying that because we shared a bed in Kansas City.

There's some level of conjecture as to Tim's level of knowledge regarding these cigars, and while I have had dealings with Tim as we all have, I won't delve into the whole "He was nice to me on one or two purchases so he must be ok" logic. I will say this and echo Brent's statement in that even good people get fooled by well done fakes. It appears to me on the outside that alot of people got fooled by these things, so I don't want to see Tim get strung up because he brokered them here.

I don't think that will happen, but it would be nice to hear from him as to his involvement. Until then, I'm tuned to the Insight Channel for more updates on this very expensive and unfortunate soap opera.

 

[dagoR6]

Wow, just came into this a little late. Time to catch up I suppose.

I bought a few of these sticks, think I still have them. I also had some from another source (who is waaaayyyyyy more trustworthy than Tim). Didn't see much of a difference frankly. Guess it's time to look closer.

The thing with this deal is that it was predicated 100% on the reputation of the CP community. The reality of it is that Tim came in and basically said that he had an opportunity for us CP'ers to get in on. Because of the reputation of the forum as aggressively pursuing scumbags and the idea of Tim as a "trusted" FOG or whatever it was at the time, he had a huge opportunity and took it.

I can't believe that he didn't know they were fake. The sheer volume of those sticks and the whole "selling them for a friend" mantra is ridiculous. They are highly unusual cigars, to even fabricate them is a very specific attempt at a 7 figure rip-off for sure. This isn't casual forgery by any means.

 

[Wurm]

Wow, just came into this a little late. Time to catch up I suppose.

I bought a few of these sticks, think I still have them. I also had some from another source (who is waaaayyyyyy more trustworthy than Tim). Didn't see much of a difference frankly. Guess it's time to look closer.

The thing with this deal is that it was predicated 100% on the reputation of the CP community. The reality of it is that Tim came in and basically said that he had an opportunity for us CP'ers to get in on. Because of the reputation of the forum as aggressively pursuing scumbags and the idea of Tim as a "trusted" FOG or whatever it was at the time, he had a huge opportunity and took it.

I can't believe that he didn't know they were fake. The sheer volume of those sticks and the whole "selling them for a friend" mantra is ridiculous. They are highly unusual cigars, to even fabricate them is a very specific attempt at a 7 figure rip-off for sure. This isn't casual forgery by any means.

I'm not really in a good mood today so I'm going to be blunt. Who are you to say Tim isn't trustworthy? In his long time here this is the only blip on the radar. So I'm just going to have to believe that you're mistaken unless you have anything to back up your claims.

Because if you bothered to read the thread over at ICC, you'd see that this tiny sale here at CP is an ice-cube stuck to the side of the iceberg.

 

[Jonesy]

Wow, just came into this a little late. Time to catch up I suppose.

I bought a few of these sticks, think I still have them. I also had some from another source (who is waaaayyyyyy more trustworthy than Tim). Didn't see much of a difference frankly. Guess it's time to look closer.

The thing with this deal is that it was predicated 100% on the reputation of the CP community. The reality of it is that Tim came in and basically said that he had an opportunity for us CP'ers to get in on. Because of the reputation of the forum as aggressively pursuing scumbags and the idea of Tim as a "trusted" FOG or whatever it was at the time, he had a huge opportunity and took it.

I can't believe that he didn't know they were fake. The sheer volume of those sticks and the whole "selling them for a friend" mantra is ridiculous. They are highly unusual cigars, to even fabricate them is a very specific attempt at a 7 figure rip-off for sure. This isn't casual forgery by any means.

Not sure I really agree with this post. What is to say that your source is "waaaaayyyyy more trustworthy than Tim"? Go to OLH and see how many people thought that Pembroke was a stand up guy. He had a great trader reputation that he built up specifically to come to the point where he was selling boxes, collecting money, then disappearing. Are you educated enough in cigars to know that one is fake if you're not looking for it to be fake? Yea, I can pick one out from time to time, but that is if I'm specifically looking for it by dealing with someone I haven't dealt with before. It's one thing to post your opinion on what's going on, but it's a whole new ballgame to insinuate that he had to know that these were fakes. I'm not taking sides, nor am I backing Tim. I'm just stating that unless you know for a fact that he knew these were fakes, then you need to be careful in how you word your post.

 

[tone-ny]

This isn't about Tim!

This is about an infestation that has hit not only CP but almost all the cigar communities. Similar to beetles this must be contained as best we can. Some good points have been made about the accountability of these cigars. I know of one or two cigars that I made available and I will recall them back. Most of the cigars I did buy a few I smoked, a few were gifted and two I still have.

The final accountability for these cigars, their origins and who exactly benefited is still being gone over. I will be watching the developments over the next few weeks.

 

[BlindedByScience]

Honest people have been fooled by charlitans before. Tim's rep here is solid other than this.

And, Tone-NY is right - it's not about Tim.....

 

[grateful1]

Wow, just came into this a little late. Time to catch up I suppose.

I bought a few of these sticks, think I still have them. I also had some from another source (who is waaaayyyyyy more trustworthy than Tim). Didn't see much of a difference frankly. Guess it's time to look closer.

The thing with this deal is that it was predicated 100% on the reputation of the CP community. The reality of it is that Tim came in and basically said that he had an opportunity for us CP'ers to get in on. Because of the reputation of the forum as aggressively pursuing scumbags and the idea of Tim as a "trusted" FOG or whatever it was at the time, he had a huge opportunity and took it.

I can't believe that he didn't know they were fake. The sheer volume of those sticks and the whole "selling them for a friend" mantra is ridiculous. They are highly unusual cigars, to even fabricate them is a very specific attempt at a 7 figure rip-off for sure. This isn't casual forgery by any means.

It would be helpful if you pm'd insight or me said source. Although Tim sold them here...we know their origins.

Also, a photo of the ones from the other source would be VERY VERY helpful!

--------------------------------------
I can say this as it's already been mentioned:

These cigars came from Bruce on ICC. At this point he claims they are authentic inspite of the numerous detractors and label/wrapper proof that they are not legit.
Also...Bruce has had and may still have legit smokes.


As for the Tim issue...yes, I would like to hear from him?
It is about Tim as much as it is about ME. I too gave out these smokes and whether I sold or gave....makes no difference, I now know they are fakes and will recall them.

I don't recall putting any of these smokes in a pass...just gifted and smoked some.
I too will be looking to contact those people, although they are mainly on here anyway, and pulling them back.

 

[insight]

Wow, just came into this a little late. Time to catch up I suppose.

I bought a few of these sticks, think I still have them. I also had some from another source (who is waaaayyyyyy more trustworthy than Tim). Didn't see much of a difference frankly. Guess it's time to look closer.

The thing with this deal is that it was predicated 100% on the reputation of the CP community. The reality of it is that Tim came in and basically said that he had an opportunity for us CP'ers to get in on. Because of the reputation of the forum as aggressively pursuing scumbags and the idea of Tim as a "trusted" FOG or whatever it was at the time, he had a huge opportunity and took it.

I can't believe that he didn't know they were fake. The sheer volume of those sticks and the whole "selling them for a friend" mantra is ridiculous. They are highly unusual cigars, to even fabricate them is a very specific attempt at a 7 figure rip-off for sure. This isn't casual forgery by any means.

I'm not really in a good mood today so I'm going to be blunt. Who are you to say Tim isn't trustworthy? In his long time here this is the only blip on the radar. So I'm just going to have to believe that you're mistaken unless you have anything to back up your claims.

Because if you bothered to read the thread over at ICC, you'd see that this tiny sale here at CP is an ice-cube stuck to the side of the iceberg.

This. Also. To Garys point the guy selling these has supplied thousands to cigar boards over the last decade, there are vrry few sources I would trust?

 

[dagoR6]

I'm not really in a good mood today so I'm going to be blunt. Who are you to say Tim isn't trustworthy? In his long time here this is the only blip on the radar. So I'm just going to have to believe that you're mistaken unless you have anything to back up your claims.

Where is Tim? Why isn't he posting here? At the risk of coming off as equally blunt, I'm the one who paid Tim, (as are many others) and who knows maybe even you paid him as well. Meaning I am one who has lost money.

I did not mail a check to "Bruce", I mailed a check to Tim. Tim cashed my check and mailed me the sticks. As I understand it (maybe I'm reading this wrong) they are fake sticks. Is there some debate that they're fake? If so please correct me now.

If I sold someone fake sticks on this board and realized it, I would contact them immediately, give them their money back and apologize profusely. If I was selling them for a friend then I would still mail you back your money and then go after my friend. Otherwise why be a financial intermediary in the first place? Tim may be the most trustworthy guy on the planet, leave your kids with him and all that. But I wrote him a check, he personally cashed that check, and if it was for fake sticks and he knows it now then I would at least expect an apology from him. If he can't even bother to apologize then he's not worthy of trust. (Again, maybe they are 100% real and I'm just misunderstanding the subject of this post "Fake Davidoff and Dunhills", correct me if you know they are real)

Also, trust is a really simple concept, If I trust buying Cuban cigars from you, I'm trusting that you A) Know to the best of your abilities that they are real B) Have enough trust in your source to stake your name and money on it and C) aren't a thief and aren't going to run off with the money. Just because Tim isn't C doesn't mean he's not A or B. And a failure of any of the above means he is not worthy of trust.

- Seth

 

[dagoR6]

It would be helpful if you pm'd insight or me said source. Although Tim sold them here...we know their origins.

PM sent, I'll try and get some band pictures when I get home tonight from work.

It would be helpful if you pm'd insight or me said source. Although Tim sold them here...we know their origins.

PM sent, I'll try and get some band pictures when I get home tonight from work.

 

[Wurm]

I'm not really in a good mood today so I'm going to be blunt. Who are you to say Tim isn't trustworthy? In his long time here this is the only blip on the radar. So I'm just going to have to believe that you're mistaken unless you have anything to back up your claims.

Where is Tim? Why isn't he posting here? At the risk of coming off as equally blunt, I'm the one who paid Tim, (as are many others) and who knows maybe even you paid him as well. Meaning I am one who has lost money.

I did not mail a check to "Bruce", I mailed a check to Tim. Tim cashed my check and mailed me the sticks. As I understand it (maybe I'm reading this wrong) they are fake sticks. Is there some debate that they're fake? If so please correct me now.

If I sold someone fake sticks on this board and realized it, I would contact them immediately, give them their money back and apologize profusely. If I was selling them for a friend then I would still mail you back your money and then go after my friend. Otherwise why be a financial intermediary in the first place? Tim may be the most trustworthy guy on the planet, leave your kids with him and all that. But I wrote him a check, he personally cashed that check, and if it was for fake sticks and he knows it now then I would at least expect an apology from him. If he can't even bother to apologize then he's not worthy of trust. (Again, maybe they are 100% real and I'm just misunderstanding the subject of this post "Fake Davidoff and Dunhills", correct me if you know they are real)

Also, trust is a really simple concept, If I trust buying Cuban cigars from you, I'm trusting that you A) Know to the best of your abilities that they are real B) Have enough trust in your source to stake your name and money on it and C) aren't a thief and aren't going to run off with the money. Just because Tim isn't C doesn't mean he's not A or B. And a failure of any of the above means he is not worthy of trust.

- Seth

No I didn't buy any of these... I don't going looking for "rare" stuff I've had back when they were still being made, living with the memories has saved me a large amount of change over the years.

Sounds like you're pissed off. I don't have a problem with that, but coming in here and talking smack while admitting you were "gullible" to buy these sticks from not just "untrustworthy Tim" but from someone else as well, that I have a problem with. BTW, Did the other "trustworthy" person you got "ripped off" by, return your money yet?

So far you are the only one raging of the many people in this thread that also lost money. How about you take a lesson from them and chill out until everyone has had their chance to talk and the rest of the cards are laid out on the table.

We don't even know where Tim is at the moment, or if any of the other people involved behind the scenes unraveling this mess have had a chance to talk to him yet.

If it turns out that Tim has run away, well then feel free to rage as much as you want, but its a bit too early in this thread to be pointing fingers at anyone but ICC Bruce AKA the proven source.

*edit* My use of the word "gullible" was intended to show how easy it is to get fooled. I'm not saying you are by any means, but I think you could give Tim the benefit of the doubt for now for that very reason.

 

[insight]

It would be helpful if you pm'd insight or me said source. Although Tim sold them here...we know their origins.

PM sent, I'll try and get some band pictures when I get home tonight from work.

It would be helpful if you pm'd insight or me said source. Although Tim sold them here...we know their origins.

PM sent, I'll try and get some band pictures when I get home tonight from work.

I have no PM

 

[dagoR6]

No I didn't buy any of these... I don't going looking for "rare" stuff I've had back when they were still being made, living with the memories has saved me a large amount of change over the years.

Sounds like you're pissed off. I don't have a problem with that, but coming in here and talking smack while admitting you were "gullible" to buy these sticks from not just "untrustworthy Tim" but from someone else as well, that I have a problem with. BTW, Did the other "trustworthy" person you got "ripped off" by, return your money yet?

So far you are the only one raging of the many people in this thread that also lost money. How about you take a lesson from them and chill out until everyone has had their chance to talk and the rest of the cards are laid out on the table.

PM was sent to Gary.

I wasn't ripped off before, at least not until Gary/Moki/whomever looks at them and tells me so

I'm not raging and yes am a bit pissed but more frustrated really. It sounds like the facts are still in question, I have no problem sitting back and waiting for the facts and apologize to all if I've jumped the gun in assuming that A) The sticks are fake and B) Tim is currently aware that they are fake.

I would still like to see Tim post up here and tell us whether or not they're fake in his opinion and if they are what he intends to do about it or how he arrived at this juncture.

 

[insight]

Have you read the other threads at all or any of my posts on this subject?

 

[dagoR6]

Have you read the other threads at all or any of my posts on this subject?

I've read the CP one from the original sale:
http://www.cigarpass.com/forumsipb/index.php?showtopic=54147&st=180

and just found the ICC one but the Corp Firewall blocks pictures so won't be able to really follow along until the evening. I've never posted on ICC before which is why I missed that whole end of things.

 

[Wurm]

To be honest it would be nice to recap all the information from the ICC thread here. I was going to copy and paste a bunch of it but don't want "Satan" to get upset about it.

The info CP members posted over there should be OK to cross post over here though. For the rest however we should at least ask permission first.