Fake Davidoff and Dunhills sold on CP

[dagoR6]

Just managed to crawl my way through the 24 pages of ICC comments and pictures. Went through my collection and at this point I honestly don't know which ones are from which sources. I'm positive I've smoked all of the ones from the source I 100% trust (and they were amazing). I'm thinking that all of the rest I have remaining are from Tim and another source over at Cigarfamily and ICC that I'm going to ping via email and see where he got them.

It looks like the Dunhill Cabinetas are b.s., the monte 2's I think are fine (unless someone chimes in), the Davi seems fine to me (my last one it seems!)

EDIT: I will say this, as soon as you realize what you're looking for it becomes very obvious. The first Dunhill's I smoked, the gold was very much more obvious. And the band seemed a little whiter, like it was white and yellowed rather than just being yellowish. (hard to describe but obvious in person). I'm trying to find one of those earlier bands, I used to save them.

Nothing unusual on the inside of the Davidoff band (no strange glue marks)

Suspect Dunhill's

 

[Wurm]

No I didn't buy any of these... I don't going looking for "rare" stuff I've had back when they were still being made, living with the memories has saved me a large amount of change over the years.

Sounds like you're pissed off. I don't have a problem with that, but coming in here and talking smack while admitting you were "gullible" to buy these sticks from not just "untrustworthy Tim" but from someone else as well, that I have a problem with. BTW, Did the other "trustworthy" person you got "ripped off" by, return your money yet?

So far you are the only one raging of the many people in this thread that also lost money. How about you take a lesson from them and chill out until everyone has had their chance to talk and the rest of the cards are laid out on the table.

PM was sent to Gary.

I wasn't ripped off before, at least not until Gary/Moki/whomever looks at them and tells me so

I'm not raging and yes am a bit pissed but more frustrated really. It sounds like the facts are still in question, I have no problem sitting back and waiting for the facts and apologize to all if I've jumped the gun in assuming that A) The sticks are fake and B) Tim is currently aware that they are fake.

I would still like to see Tim post up here and tell us whether or not they're fake in his opinion and if they are what he intends to do about it or how he arrived at this juncture.

As I said before, this one sale on CP is a small pimple on a very large ass. I'm pretty sure Tim is now aware of the storm brewing and yes I think he needs to log back in and say his piece.

But the person who took your money has been fooling a lot more knowledgeable persons for a very long time.

Its unfortunate that Tim happened to be the person who brought this here, but seriously do you really think he did it maliciously knowing the cigars were fakes? Because thats what the tone that you used in your first post implied and the reason I took issue with it.

 

[insight]

It is all archived on gt and hb as well, so at least it wont disappear

Also all the cigars in those pics you posted look suspect, they all appear to have hybrid wrapper

 

[tone-ny]

Dago just so you know, the Monte's are also suspect. The band should be Dunhill on one side and London on the other, not Dunhill on both sides.

 

[dagoR6]

But the person who took your money has been fooling a lot more knowledgeable persons for a very long time.

Its unfortunate that Tim happened to be the person who brought this here, but seriously do you really think he did it maliciously knowing the cigars were fakes? Because thats what the tone that you used in your first post implied and the reason I took issue with it.
EDIT: Quote shortened for brevity

I've been thinking about this awhile before responding. The reality is at this point, until Tim comes forward, I don't even know who "took my money."

The fact is that I gave my money directly to Tim, your argument that the person who took my money is someone else is really nothing other than idle conjecture until Tim reappears and says/proves otherwise. I understand that there looks to be a consensus that Tim was simply handing the money to someone named Allan who bought them from someone named Bruce (well known people I understand).

And since there is a clear chain of custody there from Bruce to Allan to Tim, then it's clearly Allan that has my money, or it's Bruce but no one knows for sure. But surely you must see that Tim needs to answer for it and in my mind provide the details of where the money went (to whom and if he took a cut). But wading through the 24 pages of commentary on ICC, it's not really clear who knew what when, just that people have been aware of this for 2+ years and keeping it discreet.

There was at some point some good conversation going on there about people realizing that their large stash of VHTF sticks were likely fake and then selling/trading them out to the community to get off of them. I don't know whether I think Tim maliciously took it here or not, but (since you asked me what I think) I will say that my gut is that he knew or could have known why Allan (whoever the heck that is) was getting off them was to get his money back by shafting the rest of us a fiver at a time.

I will also say this: As this whole deal has evolved it has been clear that it's not just Dunhill's, it's Davidoff's, it's Montecristo Dunhill's it's whatever. Extremely high quality forgeries. People had to have known these were fake at the source, if that's Bruce or whomever then I think it's something that needs to come out because to me it sounds like a very deliberate method of making six plus figures off the US cigar community by utilizing trust in people who have been around for a long time.

 

[dagoR6]

Dago just so you know, the Monte's are also suspect. The band should be Dunhill on one side and London on the other, not Dunhill on both sides.

Interesting, first off it's another stick provided from Tim's sale.

What's more intriguing for me is that the MRN book only shows one side (the dunhill side) so, if in fact the other side says London on a Montecristo No. 2 Seleccion, then it would lead to the idea that the counterfeiter did not actually have an original and was working from a book.

Do you have a photo (or original stick) of the Monte 2 Dunhill to confirm it says London on the other side. I know it's traditional to have London on the other side but it'd be helpful to eliminate the possibility that it's a legitimate band variation.

 

[DePasta]

If I would have known these were shipped "by diplomatic courier" That would have been enough to keep me from buying them...LOL

 

[insight]

I will just cross post the summary moki typed up for this since there still seems to be confusion. I will add this: There are still investigations going on as to the ultimate source of these and others. This is bigger than just being a board issue. Nothing you post or ask is going to make that information come out any quicker, the parties involved have likely never heard of CP and righteous indignation isn't going to have any effect. I cannot provide you any details on who they are or what specifically they are doing, you can either trust that I serve the interests of the cigar community faithfully and am not bullshitting with you... or don't. It really doesn't matter much to me.

I have spoken to Tim and his response was effectively that he has no idea about any of this and if people have a gripe they should take it up with Allen and Bruce. He has left the cigar boards and I would not expect a reply from him beyond that. I am just relaying that information and have told him in my opinion he needs to reply here, not much more I can do on that front.

I have also spoken to a number of very established guys in the cigar community who have said there have been discussions about these cigars in the past, just no proof. Dago, you lack the information and the perspective to understand how this really played out and the underlying timeline. Your commentary is bordering on accusatory of the people who have actually put a stop to this after a decade plus of it going on.

Here is Moki's post on the issue, cross posted here:

Linked per request

 

[dagoR6]

Dago, you lack the information and the perspective to understand how this really played out and the underlying timeline. Your commentary is bordering on accusatory of the people who have actually put a stop to this after a decade plus of it going on.

Hold on a sec, I'm not accusing anyone of anything other than Tim "cashing my check" so-to-speak (I think I paypal'd but that's another discussion). I was asked if I thought it was malicious and I gave my opinion.

The only names I mentioned were A) Allan B) Bruce C)Tim. I've been clear I actually don't know who Allan is and have never dealt directly with Bruce on anything.

Are you saying that I'm being accusatory of Allan and he is really one of the people who put a stop to this?
Are you saying that I'm being accusatory of Bruce and he is really one of the people who put a stop to this?
Or, are you saying that I'm being accusatory of Tim and he is really one of the people who put a stop to this?

Again, I have no problem sitting back and waiting for the facts to gather and am ready to go back to not commenting on the matter any further.

 

[moki]

To be honest it would be nice to recap all the information from the ICC thread here. I was going to copy and paste a bunch of it but don't want "Satan" to get upset about it.

The info CP members posted over there should be OK to cross post over here though. For the rest however we should at least ask permission first.

Go here for a recap:

http://www.gartrader.com/forums/topic/3327-should-bruce-be-fried/

 

[moki]

Suspect Dunhill's

Oh boy...

 

[insight]

<snip>

And since there is a clear chain of custody there from Bruce to Allan to Tim, then it's clearly Allan that has my money, or it's Bruce but no one knows for sure. But surely you must see that Tim needs to answer for it and in my mind provide the details of where the money went (to whom and if he took a cut). But wading through the 24 pages of commentary on ICC, it's not really clear who knew what when, just that people have been aware of this for 2+ years and keeping it discreet.
I will also say this: As this whole deal has evolved it has been clear that it's not just Dunhill's, it's Davidoff's, it's Montecristo Dunhill's it's whatever. Extremely high quality forgeries. People had to have known these were fake at the source, if that's Bruce or whomever then I think it's something that needs to come out because to me it sounds like a very deliberate method of making six plus figures off the US cigar community by utilizing trust in people who have been around for a long time.]

Dago, you lack the information and the perspective to understand how this really played out and the underlying timeline. Your commentary is bordering on accusatory of the people who have actually put a stop to this after a decade plus of it going on.

Hold on a sec, I'm not accusing anyone of anything other than Tim "cashing my check" so-to-speak (I think I paypal'd but that's another discussion). I was asked if I thought it was malicious and I gave my opinion.

The only names I mentioned were A) Allan B) Bruce C)Tim. I've been clear I actually don't know who Allan is and have never dealt directly with Bruce on anything.

Are you saying that I'm being accusatory of Allan and he is really one of the people who put a stop to this?
Are you saying that I'm being accusatory of Bruce and he is really one of the people who put a stop to this?
Or, are you saying that I'm being accusatory of Tim and he is really one of the people who put a stop to this?

Again, I have no problem sitting back and waiting for the facts to gather and am ready to go back to not commenting on the matter any further.

Bolded/snipped the relevant portions of your post above. It seems to me like you are implying that those with suspicions earlier on are complicit for not immediately supplying commentary. If that is not the case and I misunderstood what you posted I apologize for my comment towards you.

 

[Devil Doc]

The people who perpetrated this scam have already made their money and being put on a scubag list don't mean shit to them. Try to keep that in mind. Insight. You're the head of an impotent method of dealing with these people. You should keep that in mind as well and direct your anger at those folks and not one of the victims, who's only sin is to have shot off his mouth in frustration, disappointment and anger. None of the people involved is innocent. Ignorance is no excuse.

Doc.

 

[insight]

The people who perpetrated this scam have already made their money and being put on a scubag list don't mean shit to them. Try to keep that in mind. Insight. You're the head of an impotent method of dealing with these people. You should keep that in mind as well and direct your anger at those folks and not one of the victims, who's only sin is to have shot off his mouth in frustration, disappointment and anger. None of the people involved is innocent. Ignorance is no excuse.

Doc.

Doc I am not the one dealing with these folks therefore my method is irrelevant. I participated in the outing and the research, but it is now outside my hands other than attempting to serve as a limited means of communication between those active behind the scenes and the public venue that is the boards. This thread specifically asked about adding people to the list in the topic itself, so I am not sure why you are reprimanding me for responding. This has nothing to do with the scumbag list, (other than adding names as a technicality/afterthought) and has far reaching implications as I have posted again and again. The people investigating this are not cigar board folks and have far less impotent methods of mitigation. What I have asked for is patience from the victims and nothing more. None of the perpetrators are going to suddenly show up and say 'lol shit you got me, here is a refund."

 

[moki]

The people who perpetrated this scam have already made their money and being put on a scubag list don't mean shit to them. Try to keep that in mind. Insight. You're the head of an impotent method of dealing with these people. You should keep that in mind as well and direct your anger at those folks and not one of the victims, who's only sin is to have shot off his mouth in frustration, disappointment and anger. None of the people involved is innocent. Ignorance is no excuse.

Doc.

I dunno, I've seen cases where the Scumbags List has been a raging hard-on of potency. While I understand that being added to the list is post-facto, in that the damage has already been done... the process of outing someone and putting them on the list really does have broad reaching consequences for the perpetrators.

 

[Devil Doc]

Moki, I think this scam was perpetrated by folks who have never been members of cigar boards, but have been members of organizations we've all heard of, and the people we do know were involved were just stooges.

Doc.

 

[dagoR6]

I definitely did not mean that I was irritated with the people posting here, or thought they were in any way in the concealing. Couldn't be farther from the truth.

It's as Doc says, I was merely aggravated by what happened and poorly worded that frustration. All better now.

There's a big question, in my mind, as to people that purchased a ton of these sticks, realized they had a problem 1-2 years ago and then pushed to resell them. About half of these Dunhill's & Davi's came from someone on CF/ICC. I don't want to out them at this point but they were aggressively pushing the sticks and built an elaborate back story around having had the sticks for many years, in the box, sealed well etc... huge collector, well known to all etc... He offered me and others full boxes and all that (surely we would never have received the boxes or they would not have been the original boxes.).

I can say this, half of the sticks in the above picture were from Tim's CP sale, half from this other guy, and.... they're indistinguishable.

Okay, time for me to sit back and let the pro's unfold this thing on their own.

 

[insight]

Dago, I apologize for misconstruing your intent, you absolutely have a right to be frustrated and pissed off about what happened. Fwiw I am pretty sure I know who your other source is and I know he did a lot of trading with ICC folks. I would be surprised if at least some/a lot of stuff he has sold DID NOT come through this source. However, knowing the guy I am sure he also has had plenty of legit stock as well.

 

[Diesel Grinch]

If my understanding is correct all those sold by tkoepp(Tim) are fake? Now it doesn't matter that Tim was selling them for someone else he used his rep to sell them here. Correct? Then we hear from insight that he is dropping off the boards. This doesn't look good. It has always been understood that who ever is doing the selling is responsible to the buyers & the board. tkoepp(Tim) did the selling. Doesn't matter who he got them from. That's a whole another issue to be work out. tkoepp(Tim) needs to make good on this. That's the way it has always been here.

With tkoepp(Tim) dropping off the boards that tells me he knows he's in a mess and that he is responsible for all he sold here at CP. Also tells me that he isn't going to make good on it. Doesn't matter if he is a friend. The community is more important than that. I've had some good friends step on dicks and they had to pay the price for it.

It's tkoepp(Tim) job to go after those that supplied him.

 

[souldog]

I understand this is a "bigger than board" issue, but I agree with the assessment that Tim is responsible. It's how we've done it, why change it now just because we're dealing with VHTF cigars/fakes? Spiffy sold OR Anejos that he's made claim that weren't fake. They turned out to be, and he was made responsible. He's made good on everything now, and good for him. The key word to me in this situation is "precedence."