Kinder, gentler CP?

[Wurm]

In my first post to CP I made the typical newbie mistake; I asked about the reputability of a specific off-shore vendor.

LOL that isn't too bad Carl, my first post was asking what everyone thought about Thompson Cigar... :0 :sign:

Needless to say I got an earful lol

 

[BlindedByScience]

Bruce, I think we're saying the same thing. No need to go for the throat out of gate....but there are times..... :whistling:

We want to cultivate and encourage the sometimes shy but valuable member, while showing the door to the charlatans and moochers. On that we don't disagree.

I guess a reasonable example would be my recent involvement with a firearms forum. It's a big one, with a ton of information, so rather than wade in like the proverbial bull in the china shop, I have been reading, searching, following threads of interest, and trying to glean all the considerable info I can without asking questions that have been answered a thousand times. No, I didn't ask about making my AR's full auto..... I think in two months I have perhaps ten posts (they don't do into posts). My feeling is that this is not only the "right" way to get started, the converse is that it's not too much to ask.

One guy's opinion - B.B.S.

 

[mmburtch]

Not bad for a friday. Good points on both sides

So...

 

[Double D]

good post bruce.

 

[NorCalCigarLover]

Let me add .... then you get the newbie that asks a regurgitated question and gets all miffed when nobody wants to answer it again. Followed by a post of how rude, elitist, we are at CP because we won't answer a newbies question.

I don't like posting "please search first" responses so most of the time I just don't post. But yesterday there was a question about Port wine, I hadn't responded to one of these in a while so I replied. Then today there is a new thread on almost the exact same subject ...... come on. apparently no one is listening so why should I reply?

I understand the frustration so some days I just don't answer questions and I know others will pick up the slack.

 

[NullSmurf]

Bruce, I think we're saying the same thing. No need to go for the throat out of gate....but there are times..... :whistling:

We want to cultivate and encourage the sometimes shy but valuable member, while showing the door to the charlatans and moochers. On that we don't disagree.

I guess a reasonable example would be my recent involvement with a firearms forum. It's a big one, with a ton of information, so rather than wade in like the proverbial bull in the china shop, I have been reading, searching, following threads of interest, and trying to glean all the considerable info I can without asking questions that have been answered a thousand times. No, I didn't ask about making my AR's full auto..... I think in two months I have perhaps ten posts (they don't do into posts). My feeling is that this is not only the "right" way to get started, the converse is that it's not too much to ask.

One guy's opinion - B.B.S.

I thought I was going to have to come up and whup you around!

Still not much hope for PacNorWest this year

 

[Rebel Herfer]

Bruce you have a valid point and I agree in tone and with your efforts. I do however think that CP is more than a cigar board, like any other “hobby” board, it is a lifestyle forum. I think that is why many people get upset by the “ask one dumb question and never return” we have seen as of late. The home entertainment forums are not usually a place to hang out, nor are the “what do I do with my midgets at the end of filming” :0 for that matter; you are there to just get info & get out. I’m here at CP to get info AND meet friends. There may be a solution to this if we had a thread that non registered people could post a “What kinda cigars do I buy for my Brother’s wedding next week?” and the “Can I store my cigars in the cello?” – they can then choose to be part of the community that is CP, not just a stat for registered members on some forum about cigars. JUST an idea. I do also believe that inclusion in the goings on must be governed by rules and behavior. The search function can be demonstrative of willingness to be a positive member of the community but, then again so can being a complete smartass (and I mean that in a good way). As for the chew toy issue, I think most of you know I feel that most of the time there is no need for that, the rash ignoramus will eventually go away, but I do agree that the really bad ones are fun to gnaw at for awhile. The lack of proper grammar, spelling, and typing skills does irritate me lately though and we do have to bear with the noobs that do decide to hang with it, they don’t always know their questions are lame. :laugh:

In conclusion I do applaud your effort and ideas Gary as they make CP a more hospitable place. Thanx!

 

[Ginseng]

Let me add .... then you get the newbie that asks a regurgitated question and gets all miffed when nobody wants to answer it again. Followed by a post of how rude, elitist, we are at CP because we won't answer a newbies question.

...But yesterday there was a question about Port wine, I hadn't responded to one of these in a while so I replied. Then today there is a new thread on almost the exact same subject ...... come on. apparently no one is listening so why should I reply?

I understand the frustration so some days I just don't answer questions and I know others will pick up the slack.

Exactly my frustration. What some of us feel, you and I in this case I think, is a dilution of voice. With more and more posters and more and more posts, it gets ever harder to feel intimately connected with all the various activities and subgroups. This is probably no small factor in the sense of detachment that has led some of the real old timers to drift away, never to return.

...I do however think that CP is more than a cigar board, like any other “hobby” board, it is a lifestyle forum. I think that is why many people get upset by the “ask one dumb question and never return” we have seen as of late... There may be a solution to this if we had a thread that non registered people could post a “What kinda cigars do I buy for my Brother’s wedding next week?” and the “Can I store my cigars in the cello?” – they can then choose to be part of the community that is CP, not just a stat for registered members on some forum about cigars. JUST an idea.

I do also believe that inclusion in the goings on must be governed by rules and behavior. The search function can be demonstrative of willingness to be a positive member of the community but, then again so can being a complete smartass (and I mean that in a good way). As for the chew toy issue, I think most of you know I feel that most of the time there is no need for that, the rash ignoramus will eventually go away, but I do agree that the really bad ones are fun to gnaw at for awhile. The lack of proper grammar, spelling, and typing skills does irritate me lately though and we do have to bear with the noobs that do decide to hang with it, they don’t always know their questions are lame. :laugh:

Excellent idea, Jeff! This would give newbies or one-posters a no-strings-attached place to dip into the kitty of collective knowledge and experience here. Sorta like CigarPass's very own Drive-up Window. Ask your question. No takers, no worries. Like what you read? Maybe you'll stick around, but fine if you don't. I think this provides an out for those who are not nearly as interested as most of us in establishing a social network here or for the casual smoker who really has no interest in cultivating a passion.

I have often wondered if we're too demanding of newcomers. Does the treatment we give some amount to a "join us or die" ultimatum? If so, then this is clearly wrong. First because it's alienating and offputting, and second, because it is isolationist and triggers an "us - them" dynamic.

I have always championed the high road and a kinder gentler approach but sometimes you just run out of gas and get frustrated for a few months and want to tear heads off at the first "stupid" question. That's when I know I've got to step away for a while. I am glad to see this issue raised and in this way because I look back at some of my posts these last few months and I realize that I wouldn't feel as welcomed as I'd hope to be if I were on the receiving end.

The grander question behind this particular issue is what balance suits the denizens of CP? How much tribalness, openness, forgiveness, vindictiveness, etc. can we or should we tolerate? Over the hundreds of posts made each day, the fabric of this community is woven...but every once in a while, we reach a touchpoint, a juncture that invites a pause for clear-eyed reflection and open discussion. This might well be one of those moments.

Best,
Wilkey

 

[LilBastage]

Running through the "View New Posts", I found two threads started by first post newbs. Its quite possible that the question posed will be the only one the guy ever posts on CP. In that case, if we answered his question, we did a good thing. Its equally possible that he'll take the positive response and become a contributor to the community. In both, he was referred to make an intro and in neither was his question answered.

Now, had either used his first post to sell Opus for $50, or posts something like "I'm new and wonder where I can get me some Cubans", he's today's chew toy. Please, buffer your responses to newbs with a little common sense. If you have an answer, help the guy out. THEN suggest an intro.

I agree with your post, Bruce. I think the fact that the posts your talking about were in a pretty sensitive area of the forum for a lot of folks contributed to the responses. People are a little more paranoid in that section of CP when it comes to newcomers even if they aren't asking source type questions. I'm not saying it's right, but I think that's just the way it is.

If you're talking about some other threads, then I missed them.

In general I think Alan has a point. However, from this guys handle, it sounds like he's from Canada, in which event his question needn't be treated with such sensitivity.

I'm not form Canada and neither are a lot of folks here. Answering a question asked by a complete stranger that could in essence incriminate oneself is not good judgement in my opinion.

I know there's a lot of pretty loose discussion about said subject around here, but direct questions and answers are different in my view. Your opinion (and others) may be different and I totally respect that.

I also agree that telling the person the search function can be used and an intro could be encouraged is often warranted. That's why a lot of times I'll do a search for the answer and post links if I have time. It's like an object lesson.

It's nice that we expect common courtesy from one another. That's one of the things I like about CP. I do think we should also expect it from new members, as well.

So, yeah, I'm kind of waffling. Maybe I'll run for office some day if I get enough practice with it... :sign:

 

[Yeahthatsme]

I've been seeing this issue come up a lot on a few other boards that I read/post on. In the last few years, with the growth and availability of the internet there's been a large influx of young and/or uninitiated(to the internet) people jumping head first into some very well established communities(like CP). Really, a lot of them aren't coming for a community to join, but rather treating the forums like a more interactive Wikipedia. Perhaps it would be a good idea to put together a kind of newbie reference guide, not a series of links but a legitimate resource(perhaps even in "wiki" format). That way people who want to come here purely for information can get it without bothering everybody else, and those that want to stay can find some base information to go with.

 

[tone-ny]

This is a case in point.

Montecristo Link

While the question is a valid one it has been asked and answered with some great photos and supporting text. In days past this fellow would be drawn and quartered. Here he is asked to state who he is and what his intentions towards the board is. Yes it is a kinder way to address the issue, but it is very frustrating to those that provide answers over and over again to the same questions.

The refrain post less, read more is applicable today. Dialog is a great thing and we do have a very active chat room where information can be passed along rather quickly. Asking questions is to be expected, that's the way you learn about this or any other hobby. It just needs to be filtered at times, by the vast information pool that CP is.

Off now to smoke a vintage Grape White Owl :thumbs:

 

[Devil Doc]

I don't have any problem with giving the business to the new guys for acting dumb. If they can't take it, they probably don't belong here anyway.

Doc.

 

[Rod]

I'm glade this topic has been raised. Wilkey brings up a good point... CP has grown quite a bit, and sometimes the small community feel is lost. While there are several other cigar forums out there, we still stand apart from the rest. CP, unlike everyone else, actually does create a true community, offering those who wish to be part of CP a real sense of being. How, you may ask? We treat each other like they should be treated - like adults. We do not delete posts, nor do we cover up anything that may look "bad". CP is based on FULL ACCOUNTABILITY. That means you are responsible for what you post. If you screw up, I will not cover it up for you. Of course you can always redeem yourself (usually), though we will not delete and sweep it under the carpet, like ALL of the other forums do. This approach isn't for everyone, but it sure does create a true community, which is what we're after. The member moderated approach (which was my vision for CP when I first launched the site) has proven to be successful. The last thing I want is having to answer to some ego/power hungry moderator - that won't happen here. Even I try to let the membership resolve issues before jumping in.

Unfortunately when someone joins, there is no email dispatched them about our rules. They have to stumble upon it on their own. I know, this is a problem. I've been trying to work on creating a solution that sends out an email to new members, alerting them of our rules, and advising them to read the new members guide. Once I'm able to implement this feature, I'm sure it will reduce a lot of the issues we tend to face (new members asking about sources, posting for sale ads, asking repetitive questions, etc).

I think the best way to help reduce commonly asked questions is to simply create a new forum called something like "The Newbie Lounge". There, they can ask ANY question they want. We can also PIN commonly asked questions there (ie: cello on or off, is it ok to store cigars in your refrigerator, whats a good mild cigar, what RH should I keep my humidor at, do I have beetles?, yada yada yada...). I know some new members are afraid to jump in and participate, so they become "lurkers". I don't want anyone to feel this way. This forum will allow anyone to answer questions. If you don't want to see repetitive questions, don't go into that particular forum.

What do you think?

 

[lordlister]

I think that a Newbie forum is a great idea if people actually use it.

 

[Ginseng]

I think the best way to help reduce commonly asked questions is to simply create a new forum called something like "The Newbie Lounge". There, they can ask ANY question they want. We can also PIN commonly asked questions there (ie: cello on or off, is it ok to store cigars in your refrigerator, whats a good mild cigar, what RH should I keep my humidor at, do I have beetles?, yada yada yada...). I know some new members are afraid to jump in and participate, so they become "lurkers". I don't want anyone to feel this way. This forum will allow anyone to answer questions. If you don't want to see repetitive questions, don't go into that particular forum.

What do you think?

I think that is an EXCELLENT idea. I'm all for it and would try my best to answer my fair share of newbie questions.

Wilkey

 

[CoventryCat86]

This is a case in point.

Montecristo Link

While the question is a valid one it has been asked and answered with some great photos and supporting text. In days past this fellow would be drawn and quartered. Here he is asked to state who he is and what his intentions towards the board is. Yes it is a kinder way to address the issue, but it is very frustrating to those that provide answers over and over again to the same questions.

The refrain post less, read more is applicable today. Dialog is a great thing and we do have a very active chat room where information can be passed along rather quickly. Asking questions is to be expected, that's the way you learn about this or any other hobby. It just needs to be filtered at times, by the vast information pool that CP is.

Off now to smoke a vintage Grape White Owl :thumbs:

Tone-nj, a guy who is completely new to the board has NO IDEA you've answered the same question time and time again so when he gets jumped on or barked at, he has no idea why.

If a CP regular feels like answering the question again, then answer it. If the person doesn't feel like answering it, then don't answer it. Barking at the new guy without answering the question doesn't accomplish a damn thing. I've answered the cello-on/cello-off question probably a hundred times over the past five years and I don't ever remember copping an attitude with a person who was genuinely answering the question.

Tone, I also completely disagree with your statement that "in days past this fellow would be drawn and quartered." Rod has NEVER condoned drawn and quartering people for innocent mistakes and I don't remember it ever happening. I do remember people getting dog-piled on but that was after they proved they deserved it like tonydog$hit, Excalibur, etc......

Speaking generally (not to tone-nj specifically), I DO NOT agree with the "go introduce yourself" mentality nor has that "always been the way we've done things here" because that is absolutely NOT true. I joined here five years ago and when new people signed up back then they were NEVER told to give us their life story or ordered to "go introduce yourself." This is something I've only seen here in the past two to three years and I don't subscribe to it at all. If a person wants to tell us who he is then that's great, if he wants his privacy then that's HIS business, not mine. Hell, I don't even know what DevilDoc's real name is and I've even met him in person! :laugh: I also considered myself pretty close and good friends with a guy on another board but I knew relatively little about him like his name, his job, whether or not he was married with kids or whatever, he never volunteered the information nor did I ever demand it from him. Sure I was naturally curious but I think it's rude to ask personal questions like that when initially, I barely know him.

Now that I think about it, the "Introduce yourself here" section was only added a couple of years ago.

 

[grateful1]

A newbie forum....sure, if you want to create more forums.

What's changed? What needs to change?

It seems like it's time for some FOGs and some history.

One way to illicit change is by example....have at it Bruce!

 

[Mark Twain]

Heard tell that back in the old times a town might have a sign saying welcome. The bigger the town got the more need there was to post rules. Tacking a body up next to the welcome sign went a long way in telling folks the nature of the community they were entering.

I believe Wilkey already organized a list of trading room posters who ignored the rules. Maybe it’s time to pin that thread for new members to peruse at their leisure and leave the topic at that.

 

[Infinity]

I've been trying to work on creating a solution that sends out an email to new members, alerting them of our rules, and advising them to read the new members guide. Once I'm able to implement this feature, I'm sure it will reduce a lot of the issues we tend to face (new members asking about sources, posting for sale ads, asking repetitive questions, etc).

What do you think?

This is what I alluded to in my previous post. If you can get an automated email out Rod, it will definitely help the new member.

Brian

 

[Ginseng]

A newbie forum....sure, if you want to create more forums.

I suppose your comment could be rephrased into a question that we could take a crack at answering. Let me give it a whack. If newbies and one-posters are going to post the same questions over, and over, and over again, would the flow of the board be better if they were scattered willy nilly over the existing forums or corralled together in a single, safe, no-consequences, no strings subforum? I think you can guess at my answer. It's not at all a bad idea to set up a "kiddy pool" for newbs to splash about in until they feel confident enough to dive into the deep end. Some will. Some won't. Peaceful coexistence is possible between civilians and citizens. (A genuine Stan Lee-autographed Marvel No-Prize to the FOOM who can nail that reference and what I mean by it.)

What's changed? What needs to change?

This is what's changed.

[codebox]Cal Year Tot Mem New Mem
2001 317 317
2002 551 234
2003 864 313
2004 1488 624
2005 2599 1111
2006 4326 1727
2007 6835 2509
2008 9565 2730 (projected based on full and pending membership, June 20, 2008)[/codebox]
We're on track to register member #10,000 sometime in February of 2009.
As to what needs to change, what we're discussing right here is one of those things.

It seems like it's time for some FOGs and some history.

History is bunk. With all due respect to Henry Ford, history provides us with lessons learned and glimpses of how things worked or didn't work in another time with a vastly different population. What history does not provide is how to apply those lessons to a much larger community with an ever increasing proportion of the new "internet" generation. History, in an of itself, is of zero practical value unless those of us today are willing and able to reinterpret it in light of the contemporary milieu. And why make FOGs do all the work? Over time, it becomes a burden and one that either results in gradual disenchantment and withdrawal from the community or hardening of the spirit into something more cynical than welcoming.

One way to illicit change is by example....have at it Bruce!

Of course I know you mean "elicit" change and you are right. If there's one thing that's become crystal clear to me in the time I've been here, example, through one's words (or in some cases, counter to one's words), is the prime mover of change here at CigarPass.

Wilkey