• Hi Guest - Come check out all of the new CP Merch Shop! Now you can support CigarPass buy purchasing hats, apparel, and more...
    Click here to visit! here...

HELP!

gibu

Member
Joined
May 29, 2001
Messages
1,096
I need help!!

Our company just purchased a shop management software package (Jobboss from exact software) and we need to purchase some hardware to run it on. We currently have a peer to peer network of 7 machines in our shop. Five on wireless cards and two wired to the router. The software we purchased though will have a 4 seat concurrent user license. The computers range from a newer pentium four with xp home down to some older pentiums with windows 2000 and one ancient one that just accesses the internet basically for shipping duties. The system was cobled together over time and there is no real strategy to any of it, they are all basically seperate machines that can just comunicate over our net. The office computer back up quick books pro and ms works files, the cad computer backs up its files sort of, but mostly its a pretty haphazard affair.

The problem is that I know home computers and home networks a little bit (I upgraded the shops current network to it's current state such as it is), but the software vendor is recomending a dedicated server with small business server 2003 for more then 4 machines. I look to them for help, but they just want us to run it on the best thing possible. We talked to a local guy and he was willing to sell us whatever we decided we needed. We talked to dell and they want us to spend big cash it sounded like. It's hard to know just what will work for our needs in the real world.

The boss has pretty much put it in my hands to decide what we need. I would say I probably have a budget in the neiborhood of under $2,000 for everything. Here is our wish list and perhaps someone could tell me if its realistic.

First we need to run the new software. First and formost as fast as we can.

Second, we need to get our current network more under control. I would like all the data in the company in one localized place for reliable back up. I was thinking a SATA raid of two drives then one external hard drive for off site storage. I would like all the data in one place and then images of all the other drives for quick recovery time given how critical each machine is, or at least about four of them that we rely on very heavily.

Third, we will only be purchasing one machine. A second work station isn't an option. We are seeking ISO9000 and AS9100 certification and as such many features of this software tracks data for that project. We also have all our current job router sheets and such in a filling cabinet on paper. As we inpliment this new software there will be a LOT of data entry of our old stuff in to the new system. We NEED another work station for these two purposes.

Fourth, the quicker we get it in place the faster we can get it implimented and move ahead with ISO certification. The software rep said a three week implimentation was very aggressive and we want to be as aggressive as we can about it. We definately don't want to be at the other end of the scale at like three months or something.


Those are our priorities and they are in order of importance. Are we being realistic? Can we accomplish all of that with one machine? Can we do it without bringing the hole shop down while we do it? Can we do it with the budget proposed? What is the best and most cost effective way to accomplish those goals?

The local guy really wanted to go with a dedicated server as well, but the cost alone looked steep since the operating system was a large chunk of the budget. His next choice was a beefy dedicated server, say with an AMD64 and a gig of memory and xp profesional. Would a dual proccesor machine or something else a person might not normally think of be a good choice in this case or is the AMD64 the way to go and really nessesary?

Does anyone have any advice on all this or at least a recomendation on who to consult with on this??

Sorry this is such a long post, but thanks SO MUCH for any input anyone might have.
 
You don't need the lates and greates processor to run a server. In fact, check out Dell because they sell refurbished machines for a deep discount. You don't have a lot of clients on your network, which really helps when considering server load. We have about 30 workstations and we are running XP Pro on a Dual Pentium 3 Xeons, 1 gig of memory split between the 2, a Raid Array with 5 Scsi drives spinning at 10K.
From what I understand, you guys will be moving a lot of data vs high server load? I would worry more about fast access of data vs processing power. But that's just me. And I am by no stretch of the imagination a pro.

Emo
 
First, a few things you left out.

1) Security. You wouldn't leave your shop doors open at night when you leave, you should place computer security at the same level. If a virus infests your computers, or a script kiddie hacks his way into your machine, the consequences will likely be rather severe, if your business depends on having that computer system working. I suggest the following:

a) Install a hardware or software firewall that separates you cleanly from the Internet, and makes your office network a completely private network. Proper configuration of this firewall is a must.

b) Run anti-virus software, and keep it up to date.

c) Do an audit of the current machines, to make sure they are clean, make sure there are non-trivial passwords for the administrator, etc, etc.

d) For your wireless network, use a non-trivial, WEP 128 bit (or better) encryption method

2) Backups. If you begin storing all of your data/orders electronically, consider what would happen if a machine were wiped off of the planet. If you would be in deep **** were this to happen, then you do not have a proper backup strategy. What we do is this:

-- We have a SATA RAID array, with a number of RAID sets that are using RAID level 1 (mirroring). If a drive fails, the good drive continues to work just fine, and we can pop in a new drive to rebuild the mirror

-- People work off of data on their machines; they have space on the RAID array to back up their data, which is automated via backup software, or can be done manually.

-- Shared files are accessed on the server, as you might expect

-- We back up to a remote location automatically (via point to point t1), so that in the case of a catastrophic event (fire, etc), we still have backups of our critical data

Before I get into the other things that you asked about, it honestly seems to me that your business is large enough, and dependent enough on technology that you really may need an "IT guy" working for you. Any time you or other people spend working on IT-related stuff is time taken away from your real job.

Certainly you can likely get away without having an IT person, but this person could not just ensure you purchase the right things, but also get things configured, work out a coherent backup strategy, make sure the machines stay upgraded and virus free, etc.

You might not even need him to be full time -- find a consultant who does such work, and bring him in once every few months to check things out, and as needed. Now do your points:

First: if you want to run the latest software as fast as you can, you need fast computers. A cheap way to help speed up your computers may be to add some RAM (that's if the processor is not the bottleneck). If you need new machines, donate your old machines to a charitable organization, and use the write-off to help you fund the new machines.

Second: Your plan sounds reasonable.

Third: I don't understand... you say you'll be only purchasing one Workstation, but then state that you NEED two?

Fourth: Hire an IT consultant to assist you. Someone who knows their **** will be the best way to get this done quickly and properly.

One final thing to consider: your network. If you'll be accessing things on your server, you do not want it to be done over wireless or Ethernet. 802.11g is reasonably fast, but still not anywhere near as fast as 100baseTX or gigabit ethernet. If you're moving to a client-server model, I'd really suggest you at least get a 100baseTX switch, cat5e cabling, and 100baseTX networking cards in all of your computers.

Gigabit ethernet would be better, the price on the NICs and switches for gigabit have come down a lot in recent years. If you use cat5e cabling, that supports both 100baseTX and gigabit, if your switch/NICs support it -- and older 10baseT clients will be able to connect too, without slowing other people down.
 
Moki covered just about all of it, the only thing I'll add is that you'll need at least Win2K on all the machines for the improved security. XP home has to go. Secondly, since you have 5 machines wireless a gigabit connection is overkill unless you plan to add more wired workstations. Third, a mirrored system is slower on data writing, I do all my servers in Raid 5 which I feel is a little safer. You'll need a special card or connection for that whereas mirroring can be done in software on Server 2K and Server 2003. DON"T do it in software, PERIOD.
 
AVB said:
Moki covered just about all of it, the only thing I'll add is that you'll need at least Win2K on all the machines for the improved security. XP home has to go. Secondly, since you have 5 machines wireless a gigabit connection is overkill unless you plan to add more wired workstations. Third, a mirrored system is slower on data writing, I do all my servers in Raid 5 which I feel is a little safer. You'll need a special card or connection for that whereas mirroring can be done in software on Server 2K and Server 2003. DON"T do it in software, PERIOD.
[snapback]173380[/snapback]​

Yep, RAID 1 is slightly slower for writing data, and is "expensive" in terms of storage, but if data protection is your highest goal, it's the way to go. RAID 5 is a good solution too, with a good mix of reliability, speed, and fewer drives needed. We went with RAID 1 because our RAID array has decent sized battery-backed up caches in it, and since it's being accessed over gigabit ethernet, you're not going to notice the speed difference at all -- and you get a higher level of data redundancy.

As for gigabit ethernet, it's overkill now most likely, but if they are moving toward a client-server model of file storage, which it appears they are, it may make sense to go for it anyway. Even 100baseTX is going to be a lot faster than wireless, but if they are going wired anyway, might as well get the gigabit infrastructure in. In other words, if they have to buy a new NIC for each computer (which I'm not sure is the case) to do 100baseTX for a fast connection to their server, spend a bit more and go with gigabit.

AVB gives some good recommendations -- ultimately it really depends on what exactly you want, what your priorities are, etc. This is something that an IT professional can come in and help you out with.
 
Don't forget what your certification is going to require, but what everyone else has covered is dead on. Don't waste the money on XP please, Firewall, virus protection (because let's face it, Windows is the main attack magnet), etc, etc, et al hehe.

I don't even know why I posted really, everyone else has done a great job. Bah, I'll just shut up. I don't even do this for a living anymore :p
 
Thanks a bunch guys! Lots of great input here. Just a little more background here for you.

We live and work in a REALLY rural area. Our town has about 3000 people and the county has about 6000. We are a little over 300 miles from Kansas City and Denver. It's 60 miles to the nearest Wal-Mart. Having said that we don't have a whole lot of local IT service. Even more unbelievable, it's looking like I'm going to be the entire in-house IT department. I'm in quality control, but the ISO project is becomming more and more my project. I'm the management rep and the document control manager plus I'm about the only one that works on it most of the time. Now all of this is just folding in with it as well.

We have two computer stores in town. The first one sold us all our previous network gear but the network suferd from serious slow down problems and for close to a year they didn't seem to know what to do about it and just put us off and ignored us forever. I was hired and knew most of management from working with them at a previous machine shop a few years ago. I was asked about fixing our network so I replaced all the no name hardware with all Lynksys gear and the problem was instantly solved. The president is now billing that store for the hardware returned plus labor expenses for fixing and replacing the system they had in place. As such that store isn't avaiable to help now. As a result of this though our system is behind a lynsys router and we use 64 bit wep.

The second store we called last week and they seemed more then happy to sell us anything we wanted to buy but really didn't address it as a consultant sort of situation despite us inviting them out to see our whole setup. We may have a third option in town, but thats our ISP provider and I'm just not sure if they do this sort of thing. We'll find out Monday though.

As for replacing the wireless network, we have this wireless in place and as large as the shop is and as much of a pain as it would be to run wire, converting back to wire would be a tough sell. The current wireless network was installed when the shop moved to this new larger building.

Basically the shop has a system in place and it currently works no matter how precarious it may seem. Theres not going to be a lot of management enthusiasm for a huge change. Just finding, reviewing, and selecting the software we did was a HUGE deal. Theres not going to be a lot of support for turning everything upside down. The desire is going to be to add in something and maybe rearange some things provided its not too painful.

By the way, we are a CNC job shop. We have four computer controlled milling machines and five computer controlled lathes. We do precision parts for areo-space companies and others although the parts we make are small parts and not assemblies. We would be a second tier supplier or even third. Our tolences are usually in the +- .005 range but as low as +- .0005 some times.

The real thought is that this will be something we can add in to the existing system. I know how precarious the system is so I've been pushing for a more serious back up statagy, but I'm the ONLY one with a lot of enthusiasm for that, like I said it all works so far.......
 
You sould be able to get IT support from any of the big Telecoms (ie Sprint, Quest, ATT etc etc) Depending on how much you plan to put on your server the new DAT 72 works fairly well for a small server and the various AIT tapes are good from 50 to over 200GB on a single tape. I back up over 500GB on an AIT3 changer over the wire in under 6 hours at one location and 200+GB in 2-3 hours on an AIT2 changer at my location.
 
I guess what I'm thinking of to do would be more of a dedicated IT work station that could perhaps also be a file server. The apps could stay on the local machines I supose since I would like to back all of them up on a regular basis anyway and then the data would go over the wireless cards pretty easy as well. All the documant files and other important info could be stored on the IT work station that could also be used for ISO and Jobboss data entry.

For backup I'm thining Raid 1 serial ATA drives with an external USB drive would work well for reliablity and the usb drive for off site storage. Unless anyone can talk me out of it for a network our size. Right now all the other machines in the network are 10 gig or less of data each except for one.

Does any of this seem sane and reasonable at all?

Oh, and my third goal I listed? Yes, we really need another work station to do all the data entry and such. We have a machine now thats used for training and is also used for anyone that doesn't have a machine of there own to use. As such it's busy all the time. If we buy a dedicated server that can't be used for data entry and the other things associated with this project then that will be the computer used for it all. Like I said, it's allready pretty busy, but the president isn't the one that would be waiting in line to use it. ;) :p

Thanks a lot guys for all your input. It really is very much appreciated!!
 
gibu said:
For backup I'm thining Raid 1 serial ATA drives with an external USB drive would work well for reliablity and the usb drive for off site storage. Unless anyone can talk me out of it for a network our size. Right now all the other machines in the network are 10 gig or less of data each except for one.

Does any of this seem sane and reasonable at all?
[snapback]173397[/snapback]​

Yep, sounds reasonable to me. Do get a hardware RAID rather than doing it in software, as AVB mentioned. Understood regarding the Wireless setup you have -- is your wireless basestation 802.11g or just 802.11b? Definitely do turn encryption on.

It occurs to me that given your position in the company, they might sponsor you to take various classes to train in IT. Your boss is already picking you to do IT stuff; might as well get them to pay for your education, and eventually, a nice bump in pay too.

You can get various distance learning IT classes, if your rural area is an issue.
 
You have to look at the backup scheme you want to use and how much data will be backed up.

For example, let's say you want to retrieve date up to 3 months back. This would require 11 backups on the drive. Starting on Friday night you backup everything that is important on all machine, say that is 10GB total, then on Mon-Thur you just do incremental at 200mb per day. Your required drive size would be the sum of all backups plus 50% (backups always get larger, never smaller).

Friday1 10gb
Monday 200mb
Tuesday 200mb
Wednesday200mb
Thursday 200mb
Friday2 10gb
Friday3 10gb
Monthly1 10gb (usually the 4th friday is consideered the monthly backup)
Monthly2 10gb
Monthly3 10gb
Friday5 10gb (for months with 5 Fridays)
--------------
Total 70.8 GB which means a 120gb drive would be fine and since the cost is so low going to a 200gb drive would be better.

Using a different backup scheme will result in more or less storage needs and if you need to retain data for longer then 3 months will change the totals too.


gibu said:
For backup I'm thining Raid 1 serial ATA drives with an external USB drive would work well for reliablity and the usb drive for off site storage. Unless anyone can talk me out of it for a network our size. Right now all the other machines in the network are 10 gig or less of data each except for one.

[snapback]173397[/snapback]​
 
Thank You SO much guys. I think I have one question left.

I think the part that is stressing me out the most is that they REALLY recomend a dedicated server and it looks like I'm really leaning away from it for whatever reason, but if I lean away from it and it doesn't work well my boss won't be happy. Does this look reasonable? Does it look like it will work well in our real world envirorment? Would it work well as a file server while being used as a work station? I would think so, but what do I know. :)
I guess what I'm thinking of to do would be more of a dedicated IT work station that could perhaps also be a file server. The apps could stay on the local machines I supose since I would like to back all of them up on a regular basis anyway and then the data would go over the wireless cards pretty easy as well. All the documant files and other important info could be stored on the IT work station that could also be used for ISO and Jobboss data entry.

Our wireless is a g just to answer that question.

It occurs to me that given your position in the company, they might sponsor you to take various classes to train in IT. Your boss is already picking you to do IT stuff; might as well get them to pay for your education, and eventually, a nice bump in pay too.
Yea Moki, I would like that a LOT, and I think it might reasonably happen. I have a feeling though once all of this is in place and works well then it won't be the priority anymore that it is now. If I know what it is I want to go do though and really push for it, then it might happen. Particularly if this does go well and it looks like this will be a full time position for me there more or less.

Like I said, Thank you all VERY much. You have no idea how nice it is to have so much input from those who would know. :thumbs: :D :D
 
The $2K investment for a stand alone server is well worth it IMO. It can be the start of a real network with authenticated login, storage and backup of important info (accountants/HR/payrole really like that), integration of your own email server at some point and more. While a server can be used as a workstation that isn't what the real purpose it's designed for. Having a layer between a user, even an admin and the server data is usually a good idea as it can prevent data loss mistakes. Go with the server.



gibu said:
Thank You SO much guys. I think I have one question left.

I think the part that is stressing me out the most is that they REALLY recomend a dedicated server and it looks like I'm really leaning away from it for whatever reason, but if I lean away from it and it doesn't work well my boss won't be happy. Does this look reasonable? Does it look like it will work well in our real world envirorment? Would it work well as a file server while being used as a work station? I would think so, but what do I know. :)
 
Top