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Mike33

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Oct 30, 2006
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Need some career advice. Just got done with my first year of law school and I am interning this summer with Legal Aid of West. MO. I am curious to know what are your opinions regarding working for a large firm or working for a medium/small firm; advantages/disadvantages ect.

I have been thinking of trying to get a summer associate job for the next year at one of the large firms in KC and the OCI start in Aug. Is this a good way to get a "feel" for the big firms? I know competition is tough for the summer associate jobs at large firms and the money is good, but I'm wondering if working at a large firm is worth the hours and lack of freedom. Any advice is welcome, thanks :thumbs:
 
Mike, I think that by working at the large firms you may find yourself in a opportunistic situation easier than you would if you were in a small firm.

However, a small fish gets lost easily in a big pond.. confucious says :)
 
Mike,
I am not an attorney, but my wife has worked in the legal field for many years. Presently, she is the administrative secretary to one of the partners at her firm. By the way, she works for Shook, Hardy, & Bacon, whose main office happens to be in Kansas City. (She works in Downtown Miami.) I posed your question to her and she felt working for a larger firm was better for the following reasons. The pay is usually better; the path to becoming partner is usually shorter; there is more room for advancement; there is greater opportunity to work different areas of law; and attorneys have more support staff.

I hope this helps.
 
I clerked for a 20 lawyer firm during law school and absolutely hated it. My first job was as a prosecutor with about 200+ attorneys and I loved it. I'm now solo and enjoy it the best. My advice is to test all the waters when you have the chance. Go big, medium and small during your 3 years. You will find what fits you best.
 
I hear these guys are looking for an intern

boston_legal_s2_box.jpg
 
I have worked as a paralegal in a small 2 1/2 attorney firm (two full-time, one part time) for the past 6 years. We mainly have done med mal defense for insurance carriers. Missouri passed tort reform in 2005 that has cut into our action severely. I bring this up only to make a point about small firms. There may not be the diversity in work to keep the place afloat. We are having major cash flow problems now as a result of poor planning by our managing partner. We have started doing some other insurance defense work that helps, but it is not nearly the same.

All that being said, the work environment is great! We all get along with each other and take a real team approach to things. It much more like a family that way. If you want to make changes to something that isn't working for you, it is usually easy to implement. Also, I will be going back to school in the Fall and working fewer hours. They are not cutting my salary or making me make the time up. I'm not sure a large firm would be so forgiving. Good luck with whatever you end up doing!
 
I think I can give you some very pertinent and relevant information. Background, I just finished my third year, and I'm graduating today! Well, Friday.

My first summer I clerked for a firm that has roughly 250 attorneys. Second summer I split 3 ways between a 250 firm, a 350 firm and a 700+ firm. You can PM if you want to know the names. I ended up taking the offer from the 350 person firm.

Anyways, I highly, highly recommend you working for a big firm if at all possible. A lot of my friends who worked for mid-size firms, or the DA's office their second summer really regret it. Working for a big firm if you have the grades gives you so much flexibility. The way it breaks down, if you don't work for a big firm your 2nd summer, the chances of you getting a big firm job your third year are slim to none, unless you go to a Top 14 school. Sounds cliche, but its so true. Work for big firms your 2nd summer, get the great money and enjoy the great experience. Is it a way to get a feel for a big firm? No. you'll be wined, dined, paid outrageously and do no work.

Frankly, if you don't like the experience over the summer, you'll have put in excess of $30k in your pocket (this is market dependent and where Houston salaries are right now), and have the same options as if you didn't clerk at a big firm. If you don't work at a big firm, you won't have the money, you won't have the same options, and you'll regret it. I recommend clerking for a strong regional firm and a strong national firm. This is what I ended up doing my 2nd summer. I ended up taking the regional firm for the environment more than anything else. That and I wanted client contact quicker.

Anyways, that's my advice coming right out of law school. Feel free to PM for more info if you want, and I'm sure others here will have great advice too.
 
I graduated from law school in 2002. Rather than going into practice, I decided to go to graduate school in psychology and ultimately do trial consulting work (I've got another year or so of school left) but many of my friends from law school went on to big name, big money Chicago firms. Of the 10 or so people I still keep in contact with, all of whom went to big firms, only three of them are still at what I would call a lawyer factory (and one of those switched firms). The rest have gone from a giant firm to a more medium or small sized gig. Sure, the money at a big name is awesome, but without time to spend it, what real good does it do for you? They decided that they'd rather have more time for family, friends, and recreation on a still very comfortable (just not obscene) income.

One of my friends who is still at a law factory made a real effort to enjoy his earnings back when he was a bachelor (he's now planning on marrying a woman he knocked up, but that's another story...) but it seemed to take a bit of a toll on him. He had a routine for a while where he'd sleep (nap might be a better word) at the office Monday through Thursday, go home Friday sometime in order to pack a suitcase, hop on a plane, work on the plane, enjoy his Saturday wherever he was going that week, then get back on the plane Sunday, work on the flight back home, unpack his suitcase, and repack it with what he'd need to live out of the office for the next few days. Sure, spending each Saturday in Europe or similar was nice, but I think he got tired of the hassle of it all. Others who lived a less decadent lifestyle simply decided to get out while they still could.

Big firms aren't for everybody for plenty of different reasons, but they're obviously right for some people--even a few who don't just end up getting trapped there. It's something you have to figure out for yourself, so if you've got the grades, I'd recommend at least checking it out for a summer and trying to get a feel for whether it's an environment you'd like. As Special K noted, your summer there won't be very representative of a career there (and the fact that they basically blow $50k on each summer worker between salary and entertainment ought to at least provoke some suspicion...) but you'll get your foot in the door and have the right of first refusal when it comes time to find a job in a couple of years.

I know this isn't particularly insightful or helpful, but it's a decision that really just comes down to individual preferences.
 
I've spent the last 3 1/2 years in a small firm. Today is my last day. (Brought a P2 with a couple of years on it to celebrate) I enjoyed the experience because I got my own cases day one, was in court during the first month and have had numerous Jury and non-jury trials. I have also had the opportunity to branch out into real estate and estate planning.

I'm leaving the traditional practice of law and going back into business. I didn't go to law school to litigate but I decided in my 3rd year doing criminal defense for indigents that I needed the experience.

What the guys above said rings true about big firms, I interned with them but wanted nothing to do with them after school. Some buddies stayed with them, most don't like it but a few love it and are doing really well.

My advice is to forget about pay and focus more on what is going to give you the broadest exposure to the areas you are interested in. Hopefully you will find something you like and can make a career out of it.
 
Thanks for all the advice guys, it is very helpful. I should be in a fairly good position next year to get a summer associateship at a large firm and that's where I am leaning. Right now, my ultimate end-goal so to speak is not to make partner at one of the big firms; rather I would like to join a US Attorney's office or a Gov. agency. I know the money at the top 7 or so KC firms is ridiculous, but even the smaller firms pay well, at least to me. Thanks for the feedback.

Oh and Tim, Confucius also says, Man with penis in peanut butter jar, f*cking nuts.
 
First, if you are lucky enough to be going to a top tier school and have the top tier grades to get into he big firms you should give it a try. Experience and who you know is very important in this business. I went to a small school so even though my grades were good the opportunity to get into the "big firm" was not there.

The only thing I would add is that first year associates at most big firms have to put in outrageous hours. Forget about friends, family or a social life as you will be married to the firm and that wife is a bitch! Don't ever calculate you hourly wage as a first-year associate because you will be jealous of the guy who just asked you "Do you want fries with that?". The upside of the big firms is what you have read above. Diversity, opportunity, $$$ and such.

With smaller firms ... such as the one I work for there is a more friendly atmosphere. We work as a team and they are my second family. I set my own hours which means that if my kids have a thing at school or little league I can be there. Of course I take work home and have worked through an entire weekend. You will also learn more about how to run a law office which is helpful if you ever want to branch out on your own.

I really think it is a matter of personal taste and style. A couple responses advised you to look at everything and I could not agree more.

Good luck to you.

- Jason
 
For summer work, I'd say go for the big firm clerkship if you have the chance, as you won't be out anything. Just don't get tricked into thinking that's what a real job there is like.

It looks like everyone pretty much has it covered here. I work at a small firm (5 attorneys), and although it has its own kind of stress, it's nothing like the stories I hear from people who work at big-city big firms. Clerking there is nothing at all like working there after school. It's been described to me as a bait and switch, where during the summer they'll pay you very well, blow as much again on entertaining you, and show you a grand ol' time. Then you come back after you graduate and it's completely different. Hundred hour weeks. No social life. Lots of money, but no time to spend it. No friends, no sleep, no fun. I know of one person that actually gave up his apartment and started living at the firm - slept on a couch, showered in the gym, clothes in his locker and closet, ate out or had food delivered in, had everything dry-cleaned. The big firms will chew you up and spit you out. Obviously, some people make it through and become partners, but the vast majority stay a couple years, finally get wrung out, and leave for a more realistic practice. If you think you could survive, go for it. If not, don't. I stayed in NW Iowa, where a big firm is anything that isn't a solo. :p Ok, not quite, but I didn't have the opportunity to work for a big firm. I wouldn't take it if I did. I could probably have made 3-5 times more money, but I would also have gone absolutely crazy. I'm not cut out for that life, and I know it.
 
Two things that have to be realized immediately: 1) The legal profession is a lifestyle and not just a job. By the time you are five years into it, every waking hour will be spent with cases either front and center in your mind or nagging you at the back of your mind. Consider marrying a lawyer because they will be able to understand your neurotic behaviors while few others can; and 2) being a lawyer generally sucks.

I work with a large firm, started with a medium firm and spent two years on my own. I have found a niche that suits me in my practice and keeps me from stressing out too much (corporate bankruptcy and financial matters). Each field of law has its own set of pressures. I suggest that you spend your time clerking determining which set of pressures that you can best tolerate. The size of the firm doesn't matter as much as your comfort level. I am wary of firms with minimum billable hour requirements...that would be a red flag for me.

Good luck in law school.
 
mmburtch said:
Mike33 said:
to join a US Attorney's office
Click to expand...

Can I get you assigned to my case if I ever get caught?
Click to expand...

Uh.....I'd be afraid you would rat me out to get a better deal :whistling:

If a firm would set a "target" billable hour goal of, say 1850 per year, what kinda hours would that generally mean for a first year associate? Thanks for the advice guys on trying for a summer associate....I was afraid it wouldn't be a good representation of actual work at a large firm.
 
1850 billable target...mine will be 2000 to hit bonus! :( The basic assumption I've been told is that when you're first starting, you're very inefficient. Because of this, you can assume at a minimum 1.5 real hours for each billable hour, and that's assuming you have the work in front of you and are pretty efficient. Math on that is what, 12 hours to bill 8.

And majority of these big firms either have transparent minimum billables, or they don't but have unsaid "expectations." The big NY firms who pay top $ have no minimum billables, but if you don't put up the hours, you won't be there long.
 
My firm has an aspirational goal of 2000 hours per year for attorneys. I agree with the 1.5 hours worked to get to one hour billed scenario. If you look at 2000 hours, that is 50 weeks of 40 hours. You can assume two weeks of vacation with no hours billed. Essentially this means that you would be working 60 hours each week to reach the billable hour goal. I have never hit the 2000 mark and I do not intend to do so. That being said, I am sure that most firms watch the billable hours / return on work performed.

I know other firms in town have 2500 as a billable requirement...OUCH! Talk about killing your social life. But really, back to what I said earlier, practicing law is as much of a lifestyle as it is a profession. If you get in to one of those firms that watches the hours like crazy then you will have to meet these requirements. It is sort of a fraternity hazing type of hell week. It is indoctrination into the cult. It is the way to get you to prioritize your profession above all else that is meaningful in your life.

I am happy as a lawyer but it is a miserable profession. There are reasons why the alcoholism rates, divorce rates and professional dissatisfaction rates are so high. Part of keeping away from the misery is setting a good path for yourself from the start. Make good choices now and the business will come. You will hear in law school that finding your niche is crucial...I could not agree more. Determine as early as possible what kind of stress you can handle and you will be on your way to finding your niche.
 
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