Bolivar Coronas

[ckeller52]

1) The cap looks wrong. That's how the cap on every fake cuban I've held looks like.

I don't want to sound like I'm defending these sticks but it may. I had heard that ISOM's didn't come in cellophane. The forum snuffed that idea out last week so the statement all ISOM's have triple caps may fall in the same category. I don't know.

2) On the band, under the word "habana" the colouring looks wrong..this my be due to the digital cam, but it looks different than the boli's sitting in front of me.

I didn't adjust the color to match the band before I posted and typically the Canon 350D returns a cooler color and needs to be warmed up a bit. Monitor calibration plays into this also and there are a lot of different monitors and graphic cards out there so I didn't bother because it wouldn't look the same for everyone anyway.

3) This was the clincher for me, the stamp on the bottom of the box is not crisp nor clear, especially the word "Totalmente"...I just checked about half a dozen cuban boxes, and each one was very clean, crisp, bold not faded ink stamped in.

I've been in the printing industry for the last 25 years and while I'm not intimate with the process they use it appears to be similar to the magnesium die hot stamping that I am familiar with. I know if the substrate is not consistent in this process and if the operator is not careful in positioning the part for printing you will get the imprint you see on this box, heavy on the right and light on the left. If I owned the company that printed this I would use it. After all, I'm not selling the printing here I'm selling the cigars.

All of this is my opinion and may or may not have anything to do with the authenticity of these sticks.

 

[emodx]

The box looks off compared to my 04 BBF's from Hong Kong

 

[ckeller52]

The box looks off compared to my 04 BBF's from Hong Kong

[snapback]279503[/snapback]​

Excellent, suppose I could talk you into sending me a picture of your box so I could post a side by side comparison?

 

[emodx]

Dont own a digital camera, I am on my way out the door in a minute, but I'll post notes later.

 

[ckeller52]

Dont own a digital camera, I am on my way out the door in a minute, but I'll post notes later.

[snapback]279522[/snapback]​

Ok, great.

I didn't ask but does anyone reading this thread own a digital camera and a box of the sticks in question? Maybe you could send me some shots of the box and the caps of the sticks. That would be a real help.

 

[Strayvector]

Have you PM'd The Master with your source? That would be the easiest and fastest way to determine if the source is legit or not. All these speculations are a waste of time because of the differences that color may be represented on someone's monitor. If your cigars don't have triple caps, then they are suspect. All legit Cubans have triple caps. My Bolivar coronas all have triple caps and the heads are flattened. Yours, from the pictures, do not have triple caps and are not flattened. PM the Master with your source.

 

[ckeller52]

Have you PM'd The Master with your source?

PM the Master with your source.

[snapback]279539[/snapback]​

I did PM The Master and the determination was that although the pricing was high there was not a known problem with the source.

My Bolivar coronas all have triple caps and the heads are flattened.

Could you send me pictures of the caps on your coronas to post? That would be interesting.

 

[Ginseng]

ckeller,

Please just hang in there and try to relax. Believe me when I say that the guys here will help you get to the bottom of things. Strayvector knows what he is talking about and I would regard his advice with a good amount of credence.

I will take some pictures of sticks I have lying around and send them to you.

You might consider sending a pair to someone knowledgeable about Bolivars. I can't come up with any names right off the top of my head but if you ask, someone will certainly oblige.

But do consider what I said. If they are genuine, then as this process unfolds, they'll just be gaining beneficial aging time. If they're fakes, then we'll all have learned a little something.

Wilkey

 

[ckeller52]

I will take some pictures of sticks I have lying around and send them to you.

Good deal, thanks.

You might consider sending a pair to someone knowledgeable about Bolivars. I can't come up with any names right off the top of my head but if you ask, someone will certainly oblige.

Happy to do it. Really need someone that has a current box of these to taste test don't you think? Or not?

But do consider what I said. If they are genuine, then as this process unfolds, they'll just be gaining beneficial aging time. If they're fakes, then we'll all have learned a little something.

That's all I'm trying to accomplish. Nothing more.

I do appreciate all of the help offered and I'm not trying to defend these sticks even if it appears that way. I'm in no way anxious to resolve this. Whatever it takes is what it takes.

 

[Strayvector]

Here is a picture of some of mine. Sorry about the quality, but I can't seem to get it to focus any better. Notice the three lines on each cap creating the triple cap and how the head is not rounded. Most if not all Cubans I have come across (except for figurados and the Trinidad pigtail), have these two characteristics of the triple cap and flattened head.

This is not to say that yours are fake, but perhaps are questionable. It is very possible that the lines of the triple cap on your cigars does not show in your pictures and that the rounded heads are a result of storage conditions. Mine are from a box of '04s and it is also possible that recent production has changed and does not have the triple cap (although, I think this is unlikely).

 

[Ginseng]

Hi ckeller,

I looked through my Bolivars and they are either belicosos or unbanded smaller sticks like the CJ and PC. FWIW, the small sticks look more like Strayvector's than yours. No help there.

I then went and took photos of a bunch of "HECHO EN CUBA" stamps from boxes of assorted brands and dates ranging from 2001-1005. I did this to address the observation regarding the stamp on your box. IMO, there's no compelling indication that the stamp (and thus the box) is bogus. As you can see, there is a huge variation from box to box and over time. As you might guess, this probably has to do with machine condition, temperature, dwell and pressure settings, die wear, substrate uniformity and perhaps a few more factors. In fact, it's easy and common to see dropped out areas, missing crossbars on "t" weak or nonexistent periods on "s.a" and other variations. All boxes are from two highly regarded suppliers.

In the specific case of your stamp, the impression seems to be light on the left and heavy on the right. On the whole, I think the stamp should not be regarded as definitive, but IMO, there is not a glaring issue here.

As for taste tester, yes, I'd look for someone with experience in this brand and more specifically, with production of this approximate vintage.

Wilkey

 

[emodx]

4. The caps look way off.
5. This is the toothiest and oiliest Bolivar I have seen from 4.
Mostly inconclusive evidence I have found. But those are my impressions.

Emo
Edited for the long run

 

[Jan Primus]

As far as caps go, I was looking at boli pics on some of the reputable dealers here, and while I couldn't make out a triple cap or not, they did have rounded caps.

 

[Gaman]

I have somethings to add here.

Besides the band, triple cap & the Habanos sticker that mentioned above look suspicious. Non of my Bolivars, including Partagas, are "Hand Made" but they are all "Made By Hand". If you look at the side of the box you will see the words "Hand Made" & "Hecho A Mano". My boxes don't have the writing "Hecho A Mano" on the side of the box.

Hologram???!!! Again all my Cubans don't have hologram. If I am not mistaken, only those boxes for domestic market in Cuba have hologram. For export, none.

The font type for the box code is different from all my Cubans. The font type should be a skinny type same as the font of "Hecho En Cuba" at the bottom of the box.

Finally, the paper insert also looks different from mine. The printing is not sharp enough & the word spacing between "18C" and "und" in the second last line is off. All of mine have very fine printing, and all the word spacings & alignments are perfect.

To be honest, if it is a fake Bolivar then it is a very very good fake. I could be fooled by it too if I am not examine it carefully. IMHO.






Edited for my poor English.

 

[Ginseng]

Wow, Gaman. You must have taken the magnifier out for this inspection but I think in the end I will have you beat. Let me comment.

1. The few dressed boxes that I do have either have only "Hecho a Mano" or "Made by Hand"

2. Hologram. Can any of our Canuck members comment on the use of holograms in the Canadian market?

3. The fonts for my box codes look somewhat different from yours. But perhaps more interestingly, while there is sometimes a space between the month and the year, there is never a dash.

4. As for the Habanos insert, there is also a fair degree of variability in laydown/darkness as one would expect from any printing process. Here is a snapshot of just five inserts form various vintages. That would not conern me. What might concern me is the fact that in every insert I've examined, including another half dozen I did not photograph, is that in mine, all the text is rigidly right-justified. In other words, the text border on the right side of the paragraph makes a perfect line. Notice in the last two lines how "Produckten" and "und" line up consistently.

However, again, I'm not sure of the utility of this observation. As you can see from clicking the link below, a fake insert can also have perfect right-justification. Fake Habanos Insert? But, being a seller of fakes, this might be a picture of a real insert designed to fool you. If I were selling fakes, I'd never show what my fakes really look like.

But, I'm afraid one detail is the clincher and gives me the greatest doubt that your insert and porbably your box is not authentic.

The cluster of loop decorations on the lower right hand corner of the insert has 24 loops on the top and bottom. Every single one of mine has 24 loops. Yours has 27.

Wilkey

 

[Zeebra]

Dunno if this helps, but I found this website useful in determining the security features of the Cuban seal. I think you should be able to tell if it's authentic based on the various security messages on the seal:

Cuban security seal

 

[cigardawg]

I have eight boxes of Bolivars in my humidor right now. All parejos (straight sided cigars). They all have triple caps.

 

[Shiba]

I have eight boxes of Bolivars in my humidor right now.  All parejos (straight sided cigars).  They all have triple caps.

[snapback]279734[/snapback]​

All eight boxes have triple caps??? Maybe you need to send them to me to verify this










Edited for spelling

 

[MarkF150]

The red lines on the band of the Bolivars DO NOT go through the gold coins. Also the symbols and writing on the coins of the band are more distinct on real Bolivars.

 

[ckeller52]

Here is a picture of some of mine. Sorry about the quality, but I can't seem to get it to focus any better.

Screw the quality, thanks for taking the time to take and post the pic. Um.. spot focus and micro mode on most digicams over come this focus issue that and taking like 10 pictures and selecting the best one. The background is sharp though.

Notice the three lines on each cap creating the triple cap and how the head is not rounded. Most if not all Cubans I have come across (except for figurados and the Trinidad pigtail), have these two characteristics of the triple cap and flattened head.

I see the triple cap clearly on yours. Are these the Coronas? They look larger than mine but it's really hard to tell without something else present for a size perspective.