Bolivar Coronas

[ckeller52]

Wilkey

Wow, lots of work with all the pic's thanks.

But, I'm afraid one detail is the clincher and gives me the greatest doubt that your insert and porbably your box is not authentic.

I'm a little confused with this statement. Is it the sum of all the parts and this is the last piece that tip's it in or is it that if everything else checked out that this insert would bring you to the conclusion that the sticks are fake.

Thanks

 

[Ginseng]

Right. Let me clarify.

1. Several niggling little things that could be artifacts of interpretation, imaging or normal variation
+
2. A few details that are more firm and suggestive (the appearance of triple cap)
+
3. One detail that is irrefutably and quantifiably different
=
damn near close to "beyond a reasonable doubt"

Unfortunately, so far only one other person has counted the loops on his inserts and reported the findings (privately). All of his had 24 loops as well. If tomorrow I were to receive a box with an insert that had anything other than 24 loops, I would issue a general request for people to check their stock and report their situations as well. It would be the weight of that evidence that would lead me to consider this final detail either conclusive or not.

Counterfeiters count on silence and secrecy to obfuscate their operations. It is our responsibility to shed light on notable observations and thus protect ourselves and the other members of our community.

Wilkey

 

[Shiba]

Fuggin Wilkey... Your going to make me pull out my dictionary again just to understand your post aren't you :0

 

[Ginseng]

Fuggin Wilkey... Your going to make me pull out my dictionary again just to understand your post aren't you :0

[snapback]279976[/snapback]​

Damn straight! Start with the Merriam Webster Collegiate mini-version. Fits nicely in your shirt pocket.

 

[Roy R. Frush]

I only have one insert on me to compare, but it has 24 loops on the bottom right and the text is right justified.

What I find hard to understand is when considering the lengths the alleged counterfeiters went to, to fake the bands, packaging and insert, why would they use cigars that would draw immediate suspicion based on their unusual appearance? I certainly don't have the experience with ISOMs that some of you guys do, but I have never seen any with such prominently rounded caps as the ones in the photos. All have more or less resembled the caps in Strayvector's photo.

 

[emodx]

Right. Let me clarify.

1. Several niggling little things that could be artifacts of interpretation, imaging or normal variation
+
2. A few details that are more firm and suggestive (the appearance of triple cap)
+
3. One detail that is irrefutably and quantifiably different
=
damn near close to "beyond a reasonable doubt"

Unfortunately, so far only one other person has counted the loops on his inserts and reported the findings (privately). All of his had 24 loops as well. If tomorrow I were to receive a box with an insert that had anything other than 24 loops, I would issue a general request for people to check their stock and report their situations as well. It would be the weight of that evidence that would lead me to consider this final detail either conclusive or not.

Counterfeiters count on silence and secrecy to obfuscate their operations. It is our responsibility to shed light on notable observations and thus protect ourselves and the other members of our community.

Wilkey

[snapback]279962[/snapback]​

I don't know the original poster of this thread, hence this comment. Why are we giving this fella in depth w/o knowing him first. Not saying he is crooked or anything, but a lot of this info should be in PM's. If a counterfeiter isnt smart enough to get it right, why should we give him all the answers in a public forum? Personally I think the thread should be deleted.

Emo

 

[ckeller52]

Counterfeiters count on silence and secrecy to obfuscate their operations. It is our responsibility to shed light on notable observations and thus protect ourselves and the other members of our community.

Wilkey

[snapback]279962[/snapback]​

Yup, those bastards.

The sum of the total don't look very promising. And today I received more evidence to compare the stickers on the box to. This picture is the Habanos labels from the Bolivars in question and a 10 count box of Sig VI's that happened to land on my door step today. The Cohibas were from a recommended trusted source and if the consensus is that their fake I'll quit smoking.

Link to all the pic's are here. Their very big so if you don't have BB don't bother to look. I left them this large to show detail.

This is a link to close ups of quite a few of the caps and then one of the Cohiba. I see double caps but not triple, except on the Cohiba.

One other thing is unless Strayvector did post pictures of the Corona no one has compared anything here to the corona box or product. Only to the same product line, Bolivar. Or did I miss something?

 

[ckeller52]

I don't know the original poster of this thread, hence this comment. Why are we giving this fella in depth w/o knowing him first. Not saying he is crooked or anything, but a lot of this info should be in PM's. If a counterfeiter isn't smart enough to get it right, why should we give him all the answers in a public forum? Personally I think the thread should be deleted.

EMO

Hi Emo, I'm Chuck.

I have posted all my personal info in my bio and if you like I'll pm you my phone number so you can google it and come up with the matching address. I have not hid anything from the start here.

As far as deleting the thread goes I suppose that can be done and then instead of a member being able to use something like this as a reference there could be countless PM's flying back and forth. I don't know about you but I'd get tired of answering the same thing over and over in PM's. That and you don't get any group consensus in PM's.

On top of all that counterfeiters hit their mark day in and day out. Only a small fraction of the buying public is smart enough to dig deep enough to avoid a counterfeit product. The laughable counterfeits make money. If (and it appears it very well may be) my box is fake then these are some of the better fakes out there.

Really though, bury this in PM's and one of the biggest benefits of these forums is totally lost.

Your not giving me the knowledge, your giving EVERYONE the knowledge.

 

[headstrong]

ckeller52,
As promised, here are a couple pics for comparison. Notice the triple cap and minimal tooth on the wrapper. I also noticed, to the naked eye, you cannot see the red stripes through the gold coins on the band. But, with the flash it becomes more visible. These are obviously from a cab, so I cannot provide pics for comparison to your box. Oh and to answer the original question, unfortunately, yes. I believe they are fake.

 

[Strayvector]

Pic I posted was of the Bolivar Corona from a box split, so I don't have the box to post a pic of. The Cohibas look beatiful, but only taste can truly put any doubts at ease. I suggest sending a stick each to Ginseng, Emo, and I and we'll be your official tester for the Cohibas...

 

[ckeller52]

ckeller52,
As promised, here are a couple pics for comparison. Notice the triple cap and minimal tooth on the wrapper. I also noticed, to the naked eye, you cannot see the red stripes through the gold coins on the band. But, with the flash it becomes more visible. These are obviously from a cab, so I cannot provide pics for comparison to your box. Oh and to answer the original question, unfortunately, yes. I believe they are fake.

[snapback]280017[/snapback]​

Headstrong, thanks

Great shots, nice and clear. These are shots of Petite Coronas correct? Anyone know what the size difference is between the Petite Corona and the Corona is?

Thanks again HS.

 

[ckeller52]

Pic I posted was of the Bolivar Corona from a box split, so I don't have the box to post a pic of. The Cohibas look beatiful, but only taste can truly put any doubts at ease. I suggest sending a stick each to Ginseng, Emo, and I and we'll be your official tester for the Cohibas...

[snapback]280018[/snapback]​

LOL, Maybe, but first I may send a different cigar for you to try.

 

[headstrong]

Corona: 5 5/8" X 42
Petite Corona: 5" X 42

 

[Gaman]

The box code font on the back of yours new Siglo VI is the same as all my Cubans. The Habanos sticker looks perfect too.

Coronas & Petit Coronas share the same ring gauge (Size 42). Coronas is only half inch longer than Petit.

Isn't it those Siglo VIs look beautiful? Yum Yum.




Edited for wrong Siglo type.

 

[Ginseng]

Right. Let me clarify.

1. Several niggling little things that could be artifacts of interpretation, imaging or normal variation
+
2. A few details that are more firm and suggestive (the appearance of triple cap)
+
3. One detail that is irrefutably and quantifiably different
=
damn near close to "beyond a reasonable doubt"

Unfortunately, so far only one other person has counted the loops on his inserts and reported the findings (privately). All of his had 24 loops as well. If tomorrow I were to receive a box with an insert that had anything other than 24 loops, I would issue a general request for people to check their stock and report their situations as well. It would be the weight of that evidence that would lead me to consider this final detail either conclusive or not.

Counterfeiters count on silence and secrecy to obfuscate their operations. It is our responsibility to shed light on notable observations and thus protect ourselves and the other members of our community.

Wilkey

[snapback]279962[/snapback]​

I don't know the original poster of this thread, hence this comment. Why are we giving this fella in depth w/o knowing him first. Not saying he is crooked or anything, but a lot of this info should be in PM's. If a counterfeiter isnt smart enough to get it right, why should we give him all the answers in a public forum? Personally I think the thread should be deleted.

Emo

[snapback]280001[/snapback]​

Emo,

I emphatically disagree.

The war against counterfeiters is an arms race. More precisely, the stakes are the dollars of Habanos buyers and the weapons are knowledge. Furthermore, it is a battle where the stakes increase and weapons improve with each passing year. If general knowledge can be found at a site like CigarNexus, then there is no more appropriate place to scrutinize and dissect these issues in depth than a specialty community such as CigarPass.

I understand the basis for your reticence. Why should we reveal the weaknesses in their fakery so that they can fix those flaws? Two reasons. First, counterfeiters are getting better and better all the time. The best fakes today are damn near indistinguishable from authentic smokes in almost every physical (presmoke) detail. So, we can expect that they will continue to improve. Second, consistent with the stated ethic of "reading more and posting less" where would the newcomers and the inexperienced go to learn the things we are discussing if communications were confined to PM's? Furthermore, our brothers and potential brothers are already throwing away hard-earned dollars on these things. I'd guess that for every one that publicly seeks guidance, there are at least a half dozen who do not because of shame and fear of ridicule.

It is precisely the newcomers and uninitiated that I feel the most affinity and compassion for because they are not "in the know." And as for PM's, I have taken it there. One senior member shared his assessment with me and another has still not responded. I have had PM exchanges with other contemporaries that add to my ability to draw the conclusions I've made. There is certainly a place for PM's as well as open postings. In this case, both channels are being used appropriately and constructively.

Wilkey

 

[emodx]

Right. Let me clarify.

1. Several niggling little things that could be artifacts of interpretation, imaging or normal variation
+
2. A few details that are more firm and suggestive (the appearance of triple cap)
+
3. One detail that is irrefutably and quantifiably different
=
damn near close to "beyond a reasonable doubt"

Unfortunately, so far only one other person has counted the loops on his inserts and reported the findings (privately). All of his had 24 loops as well. If tomorrow I were to receive a box with an insert that had anything other than 24 loops, I would issue a general request for people to check their stock and report their situations as well. It would be the weight of that evidence that would lead me to consider this final detail either conclusive or not.

Counterfeiters count on silence and secrecy to obfuscate their operations. It is our responsibility to shed light on notable observations and thus protect ourselves and the other members of our community.

Wilkey

[snapback]279962[/snapback]​

I don't know the original poster of this thread, hence this comment. Why are we giving this fella in depth w/o knowing him first. Not saying he is crooked or anything, but a lot of this info should be in PM's. If a counterfeiter isnt smart enough to get it right, why should we give him all the answers in a public forum? Personally I think the thread should be deleted.

Emo

[snapback]280001[/snapback]​

Emo,

I emphatically disagree.

The war against counterfeiters is an arms race. More precisely, the stakes are the dollars of Habanos buyers and the weapons are knowledge. Furthermore, it is a battle where the stakes increase and weapons improve with each passing year. If general knowledge can be found at a site like CigarNexus, then there is no more appropriate place to scrutinize and dissect these issues in depth than a specialty community such as CigarPass.

I understand the basis for your reticence. Why should we reveal the weaknesses in their fakery so that they can fix those flaws? Two reasons. First, counterfeiters are getting better and better all the time. The best fakes today are damn near indistinguishable from authentic smokes in almost every physical (presmoke) detail. So, we can expect that they will continue to improve. Second, consistent with the stated ethic of "reading more and posting less" where would the newcomers and the inexperienced go to learn the things we are discussing if communications were confined to PM's? Furthermore, our brothers and potential brothers are already throwing away hard-earned dollars on these things. I'd guess that for every one that publicly seeks guidance, there are at least a half dozen who do not because of shame and fear of ridicule.

It is precisely the newcomers and uninitiated that I feel the most affinity and compassion for because they are not "in the know." And as for PM's, I have taken it there. One senior member shared his assessment with me and another has still not responded. I have had PM exchanges with other contemporaries that add to my ability to draw the conclusions I've made. There is certainly a place for PM's as well as open postings. In this case, both channels are being used appropriately and constructively.

Wilkey

[snapback]280096[/snapback]​

While your points are valid, I just disagree with putting this much information up. There are plenty of members out there who can answer about any question. And personally, newbs should be wary about over seas purchases. Perhaps they should have an FOG take them under their wing for the first few purchases. But that is only my opinion.

Emo

 

[alexgtp]

PM SENT.

 

[Ginseng]

[/quote]
...newbs should be wary about over seas purchases. Perhaps they should have an FOG take them under their wing for the first few purchases. But that is only my opinion.

Emo

[snapback]280349[/snapback]​

[/quote]

We agree on this point, in general. In fact, more than a few (especially newer) members share your opinion. But, I brought up the idea of a "mentor" program in your Council thread and all I heard were crickets.

Is there a way to protect the innocent and unsuspecting while at the same time strengthening our ability to deal with fraud and enhancing the solidarity and inclusiveness of our community? I suspect there is and I think the solution waits for us to work it out.

Wilkey

 

[ckeller52]

But that is only my opinion.

Emo

And your opinion is more valid than mine as you are an admin here and I'm a newbie. So because I'm new here and don't want to rock the boat I'm as of now stopping all posting to this thread and breaking all my posted links.

Ok, fine I'm back. LOL

Emo, if your not an admin your at least a FOG and I'm not here to step on any toes.

Now, back to the task at hand, this whole is it ISOM or is it not seems to me to be a process out of control.

We need a way, a logical pattern of questions and answers we can use to define what is true and what is not true about these ISOM's we focus so much on.

This is IMHO. And no I'm not defending my box of smokes. I'd like to know things that are universally true about ISOM's.

Other than Cohiba Siglo VI are the finest cigar ever made. <g>

 

[emodx]

But that is only my opinion.

Emo

And your opinion is more valid than mine as you are an admin here and I'm a newbie. So because I'm new here and don't want to rock the boat I'm as of now stopping all posting to this thread and breaking all my posted links.

Any more questions I have on this topic I'll do in PM's.

Sorry for the problems, I'll choose my topic's more carefully next time.

[snapback]280440[/snapback]​

Hold on there, I am not a board admin. Nor do I want to be. My ties as an "administrator" is to Cigar Pass Insurance only. By all means, post what ever you want to post. You have your opinions and I have mine. Neither are more right than the other.

Emo