A Petition to Cigar Manufacturers

[FrankSantos]

Do you guys think all manufacturers are honest about their blends when they state the origin of their wrapper/binder/filler combos?

I get a kick out of guys who say "I only like Nic tobacco, that's why I like such and such brand" While the guy has no clue that cigar has a ton of filler from Columbia and Italy.

I'm not trying to knock any so called experts but you'd be surprised to know that you really don't know what you are smoking many times.

 

[chainer]

Aside about dates: DPG isn't the only one. Padrons have the date on a little slip of paper in the box, and Gran Habano has (had?) the year of production on the box.

This is a factor when I purchase cigars... I love the fact that my boxes of Padron cigars are dated without me having to do any guess work!

 

[Doc Stogie Fresh]

There are some very interesting points being shared and I thank you for these thoughts. But there is a certain reality that is not being addressed.

Historically, the cigar industry has been very insular about their blends and processes. However, there is NO GOOD REASON to be insular since even if you took the very same tobacco types and seeds, but grew them in different places, you would have a completely different flavor and body signature. You simply cannot reproduce another person's cigar unless the stars all aligned and it was a double leap-year. In other words, it ain't gonna happen. And yet, many of the players in the industry shroud their products in secrecy, mystique and hype. Some people do it because they don't know any better, but most do it because that's the way it's always been done. No good reason for it, though, and most tobacco folks know it. Whether they admit it or not.

They want us to think that their blends could be copied and reproduced. That is totally false. You can use the same tobacco type, and use the same methods and if the tobacco was grown in a different plot of soil the cigars would taste different. I saw this in France with wines. I was in St. Emilion and a winemaker was showing us the vines of Chateau Bel Air and Grand Cru Classe Bordeaux, then he took us about 100 ft to a different side of the same hill and showed us the vines of Chateau Ausone a first growth. His point, and it's the same with tobacco, is that it is the soil and weather conditions that give the wine it flavor and body signature. You can do a few things with your methods, but you can't really change the soil signature.

The cigar industry is simply using a different method to keep us interested in their cigars. Call it secrecy, mystique, or hype. But the basis of it is untrue.

As I said before,

"I realize this is a complex issue, but the wine industry has never made this a "club mentality" where only the few are afforded knowledge of what goes on behind the scenes. The wine industry has been totally transparent from the beginning. They want the wine consumer to know more about every possible facet of the industry and in this way they have created a larger cadre of supporters and stakeholders. The cigar industry has done just the opposite. They have shrouded their products in mystery and as a result, they are not affording the same courtesies to the cigar consumer. I can see two separate and distinct phenomenons have developed and I can clearly see a need for the cigar industry to follow some of the practices of the wine industry. Especially where it involves creating and sustaining new cigar smokers, hobbyists and collectors."

It burns me to see the cigar industry alienating the very consumers they are trying to court. The cigar industry needs to look at the big picture. As the taxes hit, a huge portion of cigar smokers will bite the dust. They won't be buying cigars, because they are not hooked on nicotine like cigarette smokers and they won't be able to realistically allocate a budget for premium cigars. This sucks. AND, in my opinion, it is totally preventable. But the industry as a whole needs to see education as a long-term solution. The "educational sale" is a tough one, because it takes time, but when it produces results, they are lasting results. And I think the wine industry has proved that.

Doc

 

[NullSmurf]

There are some very interesting points being shared and I thank you for these thoughts. But there is a certain reality that is not being addressed.

Historically, the cigar industry has been very insular about their blends and processes. However, there is NO GOOD REASON to be insular since even if you took the very same tobacco types and seeds, but grew them in different places, you would have a completely different flavor and body signature. You simply cannot reproduce another person's cigar unless the stars all aligned and it was a double leap-year. In other words, it ain't gonna happen. And yet, many of the players in the industry shroud their products in secrecy, mystique and hype. Some people do it because they don't know any better, but most do it because that's the way it's always been done. No good reason for it, though, and most tobacco folks know it. Whether they admit it or not.

They want us to think that their blends could be copied and reproduced. That is totally false. You can use the same tobacco type, and use the same methods and if the tobacco was grown in a different plot of soil the cigars would taste different. I saw this in France with wines. I was in St. Emilion and a winemaker was showing us the vines of Chateau Bel Air and Grand Cru Classe Bordeaux, then he took us about 100 ft to a different side of the same hill and showed us the vines of Chateau Ausone a first growth. His point, and it's the same with tobacco, is that it is the soil and weather conditions that give the wine it flavor and body signature. You can do a few things with your methods, but you can't really change the soil signature.

The cigar industry is simply using a different method to keep us interested in their cigars. Call it secrecy, mystique, or hype. But the basis of it is untrue.

As I said before,

"I realize this is a complex issue, but the wine industry has never made this a "club mentality" where only the few are afforded knowledge of what goes on behind the scenes. The wine industry has been totally transparent from the beginning. They want the wine consumer to know more about every possible facet of the industry and in this way they have created a larger cadre of supporters and stakeholders. The cigar industry has done just the opposite. They have shrouded their products in mystery and as a result, they are not affording the same courtesies to the cigar consumer. I can see two separate and distinct phenomenons have developed and I can clearly see a need for the cigar industry to follow some of the practices of the wine industry. Especially where it involves creating and sustaining new cigar smokers, hobbyists and collectors."

It burns me to see the cigar industry alienating the very consumers they are trying to court. The cigar industry needs to look at the big picture. As the taxes hit, a huge portion of cigar smokers will bite the dust. They won't be buying cigars, because they are not hooked on nicotine like cigarette smokers and they won't be able to realistically allocate a budget for premium cigars. This sucks. AND, in my opinion, it is totally preventable. But the industry as a whole needs to see education as a long-term solution. The "educational sale" is a tough one, because it takes time, but when it produces results, they are lasting results. And I think the wine industry has proved that.

Doc

Doc, I think you're grossly overestimating the number of even discriminating cigar smokers who give a shit.

 

[Doc Stogie Fresh]

Doc, I think you're grossly overestimating the number of even discriminating cigar smokers who give a shit.

Perhaps you are right, the signatures on the petition will tell more than anything.

However, the wine industry crossed the same bridge eons ago. They made it their business to make sure that the average consumer WOULD give a shit. Now they are reaping the rewards of having a more highly educated consumer base.''Doc

 

[BigJake6904]

Do you guys think all manufacturers are honest about their blends when they state the origin of their wrapper/binder/filler combos?

I get a kick out of guys who say "I only like Nic tobacco, that's why I like such and such brand" While the guy has no clue that cigar has a ton of filler from Columbia and Italy.

I'm not trying to knock any so called experts but you'd be surprised to know that you really don't know what you are smoking many times.

I heard this from Jose as well, pretty interesting the way manufacturers cover up some of their blends.

 

[Mowee]

There are some very interesting points being shared and I thank you for these thoughts. But there is a certain reality that is not being addressed.

Historically, the cigar industry has been very insular about their blends and processes. However, there is NO GOOD REASON to be insular since even if you took the very same tobacco types and seeds, but grew them in different places, you would have a completely different flavor and body signature. You simply cannot reproduce another person's cigar unless the stars all aligned and it was a double leap-year. In other words, it ain't gonna happen. And yet, many of the players in the industry shroud their products in secrecy, mystique and hype. Some people do it because they don't know any better, but most do it because that's the way it's always been done. No good reason for it, though, and most tobacco folks know it. Whether they admit it or not.

They want us to think that their blends could be copied and reproduced. That is totally false. You can use the same tobacco type, and use the same methods and if the tobacco was grown in a different plot of soil the cigars would taste different. I saw this in France with wines. I was in St. Emilion and a winemaker was showing us the vines of Chateau Bel Air and Grand Cru Classe Bordeaux, then he took us about 100 ft to a different side of the same hill and showed us the vines of Chateau Ausone a first growth. His point, and it's the same with tobacco, is that it is the soil and weather conditions that give the wine it flavor and body signature. You can do a few things with your methods, but you can't really change the soil signature.

The cigar industry is simply using a different method to keep us interested in their cigars. Call it secrecy, mystique, or hype. But the basis of it is untrue.

As I said before,

"I realize this is a complex issue, but the wine industry has never made this a "club mentality" where only the few are afforded knowledge of what goes on behind the scenes. The wine industry has been totally transparent from the beginning. They want the wine consumer to know more about every possible facet of the industry and in this way they have created a larger cadre of supporters and stakeholders. The cigar industry has done just the opposite. They have shrouded their products in mystery and as a result, they are not affording the same courtesies to the cigar consumer. I can see two separate and distinct phenomenons have developed and I can clearly see a need for the cigar industry to follow some of the practices of the wine industry. Especially where it involves creating and sustaining new cigar smokers, hobbyists and collectors."

It burns me to see the cigar industry alienating the very consumers they are trying to court. The cigar industry needs to look at the big picture. As the taxes hit, a huge portion of cigar smokers will bite the dust. They won't be buying cigars, because they are not hooked on nicotine like cigarette smokers and they won't be able to realistically allocate a budget for premium cigars. This sucks. AND, in my opinion, it is totally preventable. But the industry as a whole needs to see education as a long-term solution. The "educational sale" is a tough one, because it takes time, but when it produces results, they are lasting results. And I think the wine industry has proved that.

Doc

Doc...you may want to talk to a few cigar makers who HAVE had their blends ripped off. But unless you know WHICH field the crop is coming from you still don't know squat. In the DR fields just a few hundred meters from each other can yield totally different tobacco. So knowing the tobacco came from say Navarette wouldn't tell you anything.

And as for the wine industry, sorry dude they still lie about what is in their bottles. Most of what you read is PR BS.

As I said earlier....if the FDA bill passes then you will get your labeling....of course most cigar makers will be out of business when it happens....

And Frankie...I am SHOCKED that someone may lie. LOL

BTW ya got the formula for Coke or Pepsi or Dr. Pepper?

 

[Doc Stogie Fresh]

Doc...you may want to talk to a few cigar makers who HAVE had their blends ripped off. But unless you know WHICH field the crop is coming from you still don't know squat. In the DR fields just a few hundred meters from each other can yield totally different tobacco. So knowing the tobacco came from say Navarette wouldn't tell you anything.

And as for the wine industry, sorry dude they still lie about what is in their bottles. Most of what you read is PR BS.

As I said earlier....if the FDA bill passes then you will get your labeling....of course most cigar makers will be out of business when it happens....

And Frankie...I am SHOCKED that someone may lie. LOL

BTW ya got the formula for Coke or Pepsi or Dr. Pepper?

Yes sir, I indeed have talked with many cigar makers in 4 different countries and have toured their fields and factories and have sat and asked them many questions. I have never talked to a single cigar maker who told me that their cigars had been ripped off. That is, that they had been exactly reproduced in flavor and body profile. They wouldn't say that because it's not true. I have talked with people whose packaging had been copied, or even counterfeited, but that is a different topic. Of course, many cigar manufacturers will try and produce cigars that taste like popular cigars. Obviously, if a certain taste profile is "hot" then they will try and make their cigars taste the same. My point is that they can't reproduce the same flavors with tobaccos grown in different soils and climates (i.e., microclimates).

Good idea about also telling us which farm (vega) that the tobacco comes from. That would be equivalent of wine labeling and the appellations.

It may surprise you to know that many tobacco growers and manufacturers agree with me that we need standards, but they are afraid of the political fallout if they try and blaze a trail. That is a pragmatic issue that can be dealt with.

Coke or Pepsi blends are not a proper comparison since neither are made from raw agricultural crops, nor are they handcrafted. Thus, like tires and Barbie dolls, they can be reproduced.

Here's another thought to ponder. When a wine label says that the vintage is 2006 that means that all the grapes used in the wine were harvested in 2006. What does it mean when a cigar maker claims to have a vintage cigar? It doesn't mean anything in particular because there are no standards. In the wine industry, we know exactly what Estate Grown means, same with Vintage, and other terms because their meanings are set by standards. With cigars we haven't a clue (unless the manufacturer decides to tell us) what "vintage," or "limited" means, and yet we are expected to pay a healthy price tag for cigars sporting those titles.

As someone else mentioned in this thread, I don't expect to see the cigar industry make all the changes in the petition. However, I do realize that the bigger the net that is cast, the more likely you are to catch some fish. The petition has a two-fold purpose: First, to show the cigar industry that consumers care about getting more accurate and timely information about cigars. And second, to provide a starting point for their consideration. I don't know what types of information will or will not be included by manufacturers, but I would like to see them work together to set some sort of standards that they can all live with. I do believe that, in the long run, setting these standards and providing more information to the consumer will work in favor of the cigar industry.

Believe it or not, that is my goal. To see a much stronger cigar industry. What I have seen over the past three years is a cigar industry that has been running scared. They are reacting to anti-tobacco legislation and the anti-tobacco lobby. Rather than REACTING at every corner, we need to enact processes that are PROACTIVE and that are meant to strengthen the industry in both the short-term and the long-term.

Creating a system that will better educate the cigar public will also create more stakeholders in the premium cigar industry and is a way of being proactive. I am also trying to get a cigar conference/festival off the ground in California. One that hopes to entertain as well as educate. As you might imagine, this is a lot of work, but I believe we need to be proactive and if we can sponsor more events, big events, that can educate cigar smokers and even non-cigar-smokers then we have started a positive momentum in the industry.

Doc

 

[vudu9]

Do you guys think all manufacturers are honest about their blends when they state the origin of their wrapper/binder/filler combos?

NO.

 

[Doc Stogie Fresh]

Do you guys think all manufacturers are honest about their blends when they state the origin of their wrapper/binder/filler combos?

NO.

Let's put it this way... if anybody has any specific evidence that points to any manufacturers making false claims about the origins of wrappers, binders or filler contents, send that evidence to me and I will go into my secret ops mode and will track down the truth. Without said evidence, I think it is a moot point.

Doc

 

[BigJake6904]

Do you guys think all manufacturers are honest about their blends when they state the origin of their wrapper/binder/filler combos?

NO.

Let's put it this way... if anybody has any specific evidence that points to any manufacturers making false claims about the origins of wrappers, binders or filler contents, send that evidence to me and I will go into my secret ops mode and will track down the truth. Without said evidence, I think it is a moot point.

Doc

If they made false claims, it's for a reason. Thus, I don't consider it my place to be the one to make it known.

 

[baldheadracing]

Well, my level in "consumer confidence" has dropped a bit reading what Messrs. Santos and Giolito have written. Call me naive, but is the next thing someone is going to tell me is that "Vintage 1990" doesn't necessarily mean any of the tobacco in that cigar was grown in 1990? :whistling:

I'm getting the feeling that the underlying reason that we don't have the kinds of things Doc is asking for is that there is an 800lb gorilla just outside the room - an 800lb gorilla that has had legally-defined growth regions, and a legally-protected appellation/origin everywhere in the world, including the USA.

I think Doc is right. Unless the kind of info he wants starts showing up, and thus, creating and building the kind of geography-based demand found in the wine industry (and, admittedly, sometimes forged; as in, breaking the law, not marketing BS, at least outside the USA), then that 800lb gorilla is going to be the only origin that matters in cigars, just like it was up until 1959.

Maybe, just maybe, that's what many people in the cigar industry want. To end the exodus and return home.

(or maybe I should stop drinking and posting :blush: )

 

[FrankSantos]

I don't want to sound like I'm discouraging anyone nor would I ever try to refute the claims of any particular manufacturer. I just feel that with some, we have gotten away from the pure and simple reason many people like to smoke cigars - for enjoyment and relaxation. All this worry and gossip over blends and vintage years, limited editions, 4 page reviews, and which manufacturer makes what - has somehow taken away from the simplicity and purpose of the cigar, especially if the information we are basing it on is false for the most part. I feel we should take a step back and start appreciating what a cigar is meant to be and stop dissecting all the little details, because as I mentioned above, most of us have no real clue what the blend is and we DEFINITELY have no clue how 'aged' the cigar is. I've been around this 'biz' in some form or fashion since 1991 and I can count with my hand how many true cigarmakers can call out what wrapper is from where and what region the blend is from. And even then, they'll tell you it's almost impossible to get it right all the time.
I think of cigars like food - I have my basic go-to meals I eat on a daily basis and about once a week I like to try something new. Sometimes I'll try a real expensive plate, sometimes I'll try a real exotic plate. That's the fun part about this hobby. At the end of the day, its what I like and whether it is considered 'fake' or vintage or rated 99, I have to ultimately enjoy it and MY rating is the rating that should only count. After all these years of meeting cigar smokers I always tell everyone that no one is wrong when it comes to judging a cigar.

Hope this doesn't sound like a rant...lol..

 

[Mowee]

Frankie I think you are correct. The real point is whether you like the cigar or not. Who really cares if the cigar is aged X years or is a vintage? The question is do you LIKE it? Otherwise you are smoking PR not the cigar. In blind tastings you have no clue as to the farm, vintage or anything else...you are just seeing if the cigar is well made and if you like it. THAT is the point.


More information will simply ADD to the cost of production (it takes time and personnel to do it noting is free.) Some cigar makers buy their tobacco and may or may not know which farm the tobacco came from. Remember many times it is sorted and processed before some makers get it.

Doc, I think your heart is in the right place but realistically it ain't doable. And is not needed. The wine industry still doesn't make its ingredients available.

Also yes I have known some cigar makers who got ripped off. No I won't tell you because they told me in confidence. Maybe we'll have a drink in the DR during Pro Cigar and we can talk about it.

 

[JHolmes763]

It'd be nice to have...

 

[Doc Stogie Fresh]

Doc, I think your heart is in the right place but realistically it ain't doable. And is not needed.

I'll disagree with the "is not needed" part, but we can agree to disagree about that. The industry sales have been flat in many markets throughout the U.S., which is why many manufacturers are looking how to go international, if they haven't already. The anti-tobacco lobby and legislation IS taking a toll and we will need to be proactive to do something about it. As consumers, we don't have to worry about these things, but I can tell you the industry is worried, as well they should be. We need more proactive ideas to inject life into the industry and we need creative thinking to break out of the box that has been limiting the industry.

Call me a hopeless optimist, but I think it can be done. We can provide more, and better information about cigars to the consumers and there are enough consumers who are interested in taking their hobby to the next level. In fact, I'm in the process of assembling a team of "cigar-teckies" to work on it. I'll keep ya posted.

Doc