Altadis objecting to Pete Johnson over the use of the Fleur-de-Lis

[CRQuarto]

Here is a link to the thread over on botl.org

Personally, I am writing a letter to Altadis stating how I feel on this, which as one can guess is pretty upset. Are they direct competitors? Sure, but do they really believe that people will stop buying his cigars if they force him to take off that logo? I highly doubt it. Sure, there are people who smoke the logo on a cigar, but the vast majority of Pete's fans won't stop buying his cigars. If anything, this will only increase interest in the brand I feel. In my opinion, Pete's stuff blows the NC Montecristo brand out of the water, and I am sure that with the recent declaration of Cigar Insider hailing Tatuaje as the number one most sought after cigar, beating out Opus and the Padron 1926 series, THAT is the true intent behind this objection and likely lawsuit. As Pete said in the thread, it is interesting that fifteen days ago Altadis trademarked a new design of the Fleur symbol. Is there any interest in getting a petition going to help Pete out? It may not do anything, or it may give Altadis an indication of the community's feelings toward this even though they probably won't care. I feel that even with the high probability that Altadis will just brush it off with little to no concern, to not do anything would accomplish the same thing in the end. At least with a favorable number of signers, it may raise the chance of them dropping the idea of a suit, if even a slight bit. What are your thoughts on this?

*EDIT - To fix the title, guess it was too long!

 

[Smokin'Sims]

This is the kind of legal maneuvering that drives me nuts, if they are serious about a suit. I agree that I don't think the fleur image helps sell his cigars other than making them easily recognizable, and I doubt people confuse a Tatuaje with any other makers brand. If anyone should complain about the use of a Fleur-de-lis it should be the French.

 

[tomthirtysix]

In my opinion, Pete's stuff blows the NC Montecristo brand out of the water, and I am sure that with the recent declaration of Cigar Insider hailing Tatuaje as the number one most sought after cigar, beating out Opus and the Padron 1926 series, THAT is the true intent behind this objection and likely lawsuit.

I can't help but laugh at these lines. You think they're suing Pete because a magazine thinks his cigars are better than theirs?

 

[DePasta]

A friend of mine was wearing his Louisville shirt with a Fleur de lis on it which is the symbol of the city when he met Pete at the show. Pete took pictures of his shirt to show that it is a common symbol. Pete was evidently proud that he is having such an impact on the bg guys.

 

[gahau]

Ohhhh crap...
Soon enough Altadis is going to sue and take over France!
Since la fleur de lis is a national symbol... Dang it
:whistling:

 

[Devil Doc]

let's get the BSA involved. They've used it longer than anyone but the French. I'm sure Louis XIV is pissed. I tell ya, the immature BS that goes on in the cigar manufacturing world is laughable.

Doc.

 

[uptown_isy]

Didn't Altadis also try to sue Don Pepin for using the HIS OWN last name? Tabacalera Garcia....they had been using Tabacalera de Garcia, or the other way around. I mean, they were attempting to sue him for trademark infringement on his own name. He changed the name to avoid the hassle, but I'm surprised no one mentioned anything then.

 

[tone-ny]

I might as well sue everyone too, it is on my family coat of arms from the early 1200's. I guess I better get me a good lawyer so I can share in the profits! Maybe I'll just ask them to name a cigar or two after me :laugh:

 

[tmoney2007]

From the botl thread:


If a party owns the rights to a particular trademark, that party can sue subsequent parties for trademark infringement. 15 U.S.C. �� 1114, 1125. The standard is "likelihood of confusion." To be more specific, the use of a trademark in connection with the sale of a good constitutes infringement if it is likely to cause consumer confusion as to the source of those goods or as to the sponsorship or approval of such goods. In deciding whether consumers are likely to be confused, the courts will typically look to a number of factors, including:

(1) the strength of the mark;
(2) the proximity of the goods;
(3) the similarity of the marks;
(4) evidence of actual confusion;
(5) the similarity of marketing channels used;
(6) the degree of caution exercised by the typical purchaser;
(7) the defendant's intent.

Feel free to rate these points yourself, but to me...

(1) The symbol isn't used all over the cigar industry, but Pete has been using it for years without any objection from them. This weakens their case.

(2) They basically exist in the exact same markets.

(3) The marks are both similar to a common ancestor, but really not that close to eachother.

(4) I am fairly sure that there is no evidence of confusion.

(5) They are marketed in pretty much the same places.

(6) The average cigar smoker that will buy a $8-$15 stick is very cautious and the nature of the industry is that most stores will have an attendant with information about which stick is made by which company, so this one goes in Pete's favor.

(7) I'm sure that Pete had no intention of linking himself with the NC Montechristo brand, IMO it could only hurt him. One issue is that me may have been trying to link himself to the CC brand, and the difference may not matter.

 

[Smokin'Sims]

Didn't Altadis also try to sue Don Pepin for using the HIS OWN last name? Tabacalera Garcia....they had been using Tabacalera de Garcia, or the other way around. I mean, they were attempting to sue him for trademark infringement on his own name. He changed the name to avoid the hassle, but I'm surprised no one mentioned anything then.

This reminded me of a story I heard, which I'm not sure to the validity. The Marx brothers were sued by Warner Brothers for "A Night in Casablanca" for use of Casablanca. The Marx brothers in return sued Warner Brothers for using Brothers, since they were first to use "brothers". All silliness.

 

[CRQuarto]

In my opinion, Pete's stuff blows the NC Montecristo brand out of the water, and I am sure that with the recent declaration of Cigar Insider hailing Tatuaje as the number one most sought after cigar, beating out Opus and the Padron 1926 series, THAT is the true intent behind this objection and likely lawsuit.

I can't help but laugh at these lines. You think they're suing Pete because a magazine thinks his cigars are better than theirs?

Hrmm, I can see now that I phrased that poorly. I would say that it isn't the only reason, but I do think that Pete's success has drawn their attention, and now they have their crosshairs set on him. It isn't only based off of the Cigar Insider's touting him as the new hot thing, but all of the publications that are doing so, as well as other factors such as the obvious trend of Altadis to sue pretty much anything that breathes. I agree it would be silly to think that Altadis' desire to go after Pete would stem from one magazine's opinion, but it isn't a far stretch of the imagination to think that it could be a result of Pete's quick rise to the top that is causing them to try to quash him. Obviously this is all just my opinion, but I guess in my mind it is pretty obvious their intentions. Who knows, I could be completely off, but either way it sucks.

 

[cpprhead59]

Isn't for exactly these types of situations we have a lawyer among us? maybe a Punk Lawyer? I had to toss that to Stu even though I have no idea what type of speciality he has, outside of looking good.

As for this story, I hope it gets squashed away quickly. The Fleur-de-Lis is a famous symbol used by all types of entities, companies, cities, sports teams,etc. If you really mince words on it, the symbols while similiar are not really that close to being alike.

All this crap is just sourgrapes from Altadis. Pete's stuff is kicking their butt and they want to slow he and his brand down a bit to take their mind off making great cigars to deal with legal crap.

 

[insight]

I dunno about that, I have a feeling their market share still massively outweighs his. Still pretty silly, especially given how eager Altadis has been to pilfer branding ideas/logos from other companies.

 

[lurch]

In my opinion, Pete's stuff blows the NC Montecristo brand out of the water, and I am sure that with the recent declaration of Cigar Insider hailing Tatuaje as the number one most sought after cigar, beating out Opus and the Padron 1926 series, THAT is the true intent behind this objection and likely lawsuit.

I can't help but laugh at these lines. You think they're suing Pete because a magazine thinks his cigars are better than theirs?

So Tom... Don't you think it's funny that Altadis waited this long to sue Pete? Is it some kind of coincidence that they picked a time when Pete was getting a ton of recognition for his product? I think there is something very petty going on on behalf of Altadis...

I dunno about that, I have a feeling their market share still massively outweighs his. Still pretty silly, especially given how eager Altadis has been to pilfer branding ideas/logos from other companies.

I was going to say the same thing... Isn't Altadis suing for the same exact thing they do with the CC brands?

 

[tomthirtysix]

In my opinion, Pete's stuff blows the NC Montecristo brand out of the water, and I am sure that with the recent declaration of Cigar Insider hailing Tatuaje as the number one most sought after cigar, beating out Opus and the Padron 1926 series, THAT is the true intent behind this objection and likely lawsuit.

I can't help but laugh at these lines. You think they're suing Pete because a magazine thinks his cigars are better than theirs?

So Tom... Don't you think it's funny that Altadis waited this long to sue Pete? Is it some kind of coincidence that they picked a time when Pete was getting a ton of recognition for his product? I think there is something very petty going on on behalf of Altadis...

I dunno about that, I have a feeling their market share still massively outweighs his. Still pretty silly, especially given how eager Altadis has been to pilfer branding ideas/logos from other companies.

I was going to say the same thing... Isn't Altadis suing for the same exact thing they do with the CC brands?

Pete has been getting a ton of recognition. And lawsuits like this aren't thrown together overnight. I'm sure they've been working on this for quite some time, to make sure they actually had a case.

As far as what they do with the Cuban names - Altadis owns 50% of Habanos SA, so those are their names, too.

 

[cpprhead59]

I have always liked the way Pete used the Fleur-de-lis with his branding and the version of it he used. I had been thinking of incorporating that version of it into a tattoo I am trying to decide on.

Maybe I should wait.... :angry:

 

[Macion Grey]

Surely no company owns the Fleur-de-lis?

 

[The Black Cloud]

No, but the argument could be made that many Altadis brands (such as Montecristo) have the fleur de lis as their symbol and this could create confusion. Anyway, I think it's pretty stupid. Tatuaje has already grown it's cult following and making them remove the simple design isn't going to stop a Tat whore from buying the cigars.

 

[MadMonk]

Hmmm. A new collectibles market? Tatuaje with, and without, the Fleur de Lis.

 

[Renefatdude]

Sad, big guy against small guy!
No winner only people to benefit are the Lawyers/ attorneys

With ore without the Fleur the Lys I like Pete's cigars!

Rene