Alterior Motives

[The Master]

There has always been an alterior motive when it comes to group buys and box passes. Generally in a group buy the person organizing gets to smoke for free. In a box pass the hook is that the originator gets the thank you bag loaded with cigars.

Why else would anyone start one of these if it were not for getting something for nothing. Do you really think someone would take all the time and trouble to package all those cigars in a group buy if he wasn't getting free cigars?

No one does all the work invloved with these just for fun, profit has always been the motivating factor.

In Cliffs case he should have mentioned the ashtray, he also should have mentioned that all of those boxes would definitely have as many as 3-7 cigars plugged cigars.

Finally the issue about the cigars being sold to Cliff with the non aged price(15 percent cheaper) was never really discussed. The vendor Cliff was getting the cigars from routinely gives the buyer the non aged price for the aged cigars epecially when it is a multiple box order. Now I am not accusing Cliff of grabbing the extra 15 percent, but it is certainly a possibility that he did get an extra 15 off the price.

 

[mhortsch]

Im wondering if these is in the wrong sub-forum...

 

[BlindedByScience]

Master, I'm going to respectfully disagree.

In box splits I've been in, I've always believed that its done so that the box split organizer doesn't have to buy full boxes himself. Budgetary reasons being a motivating factor there. Some guys have ample storage room and the funds to fill up their big humis, some guys, like me, don't. A good friend on this board offered me half a box of Anejo #48's he got at retail, and sold me my 1/2 at that price. I've sure seen them listed on other sites for lots more than I paid for them. He also shipped 'em out with a couple of other sticks in there for me to try. He and I are basically on the lookout for each other and share when we find good deals.

Personally, I've never made a dime on any members on this board; I've always managed to throw in an extra stick or three in when the purchased gars go back out; "pay it forward" to a small degree is my motto. I've also bombed / been bombed. Why would someone just send out a fiver of some good sticks unless it was to share the "love of the leaf" and the fun of comparing great smokes with friends?

I won't say some guys don't profit financially from this, but I feel like most don't. Maybe I'm a little naive, but that's how it feels here. The friendships and comments, smoking experiences, etc. are all the "payback" I'm looking for.

My $00.02 - B.B.S.

 

[The Master]

Blinded, I think you are the exception to the rule, from what I have seen at all the other sites, profit is the main motivation for these activities.

 

[Gonz]

I recently organized a rather large group buy/box split. In the end, I paid just as much (plus the fedex fees) as everyone else. I ordered 8 boxes of cigars and split them into fivers or in half. If anyone wants proof, I'm sure a couple folks involved would confirm what they paid, then those here that are in the know can check against one of their vendors.

I have always been under the impression, and expectation that those organizing are doing it for the good of the group. The only "profit" or gain I made on the buy that I organized was the ability to own fivers or half boxes without having to pay what it costs to buy singles (which is way more than the box price divided by number of cigars in said box).

So I'll cast one more vote for organizing box splits for the good of the community, not oneself.

 

[ggiese]

Blinded, I think you are the exception to the rule, from what I have seen at all the other sites, profit is the main motivation for these activities.

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You're absolutely right, Harris. And this board is unique in that the founding members do NOT believe anyone should profit from transactions on THIS board. There are other boards that allow it - and it is accepted in the community. And I suggest if you want to "profit", there are boards for it.

As far as box passes - at least the ones I've been involved in here - certainly the host ends of up with a bag of smokes at the end above and beyond what was in the pass. But I believe the box pass is not for the purpose of someone increasing their collection. It's about the sharing of cigars others may not be able to get. Again, a difference of philosophy with this board.

What is very obvious on this board is the concept of "Pay it Forward". My dealing with many of the members here has been that the members choose to "Pay it Forward" in things like box splits, group buys, box passes, bombs, etc. If Cliff had disclosed upfront to the participants up front there was an ashtray of substantial value involved, most likely the other members of the G/B would have told Cliff to keep it. But he didn't do that....

I guess the crux of the differences (you say tomato, I say tamato) is that it is built into the community that everything be above board and without profit and the community is naturally generous - versus being up front that there is a profit and the community accepts it ("generosity" of a different form, I suppose).

 

[ggiese]

I recently organized a rather large group buy/box split. In the end, I paid just as much (plus the fedex fees) as everyone else. I ordered 8 boxes of cigars and split them into fivers or in half. If anyone wants proof, I'm sure a couple folks involved would confirm what they paid, then those here that are in the know can check against one of their vendors.

I have always been under the impression, and expectation that those organizing are doing it for the good of the group. The only "profit" or gain I made on the buy that I organized was the ability to own fivers or half boxes without having to pay what it costs to buy singles (which is way more than the box price divided by number of cigars in said box).

So I'll cast one more vote for organizing box splits for the good of the community, not oneself.

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...and this is a classic example of what I said, Harris. And I like the fact that the community looks at me as being a part of the community - not a "potential customer"...

 

[gandolf565]

Blinded, I think you are the exception to the rule, from what I have seen at all the other sites, profit is the main motivation for these activities.

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I am but a naive dumb-assed redneck newbie from Kansas, BUT I for one would have believed that most if not all deals that I have been in on have been even for even basis.
Profit on my part was never a consideration. I never considered that others were "profitting" from me. The sticks I put in the host bag were gifts, the extras that I put in were gifts, the bombs I sent were gifts. The bombs I have received were gifts. Gifts are just that, gifts. A way of saying "Thanks" or "Hi! Nice to meet you" or "Welcome to the community".
In the short time I have been a part of CP I have made several friends because of "profit". Most likely I will never meet these guys, but we share a love of good cigars, and enjoy each others wit and humor. I hope these relationships will continue for a long while. (well, except for Greg )

/soapbox

 

[The Master]

I wonder how many people would start a box pass if there was no goodie bag at the end of the rainbow.

This site may frown on people making a profit off a group buy, but I can assure you some group buys had profit invloved. At all the other sites it is assumed the person who started it is profiting in some way.

Please understand I am not trying disrespect this site or any of the members here, I just thought this topic would make for some good discussions.

 

[junkman_56]

So I'll cast one more vote for organizing box splits for the good of the community, not oneself.

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I agree with this...
When I did a box split, I only could afford to get 15 cigars.
I sold the other 10 as 5er's. They paid the same price as I did for the cigars (+ plus the cost of shipping).
For me it was a win-win situation. I got 15 cigars I really liked at a good price and could give two other folks a good deal on cigars.
Not having a lot of space or a large budget, I get 5er's from other folks on this board. I check prices and know that I am getting box prices for the cigars I buy.
Again a win win...

 

[ggiese]

I wonder how many people would start a box pass if there was no goodie bag at the end of the rainbow.

This site may frown on people making a profit off a group buy, but I can assure you some group buys had profit invloved. At all the other sites it is assumed the person who started it is profiting in some way.

Please understand I am not trying disrespect this site or any of the members here, I just thought this topic would make for some good discussions.

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Harris - you make a great point. And I think it's a great discussion. I hope you don't take any of my comments as being disrespectful towards your ideas.

From my perspective, I believe that ALL of the box passes I've been in are not originated with the idea that there will be a host bag as the pot at the end of the rainbow. Certainly the box pass I started was not with that intent - it was to celebrate the birth of my first granddaughter. And I made sure each of the pass participants were given an appropriate cigar to mark the event (including one who had to drop out due to time committments - I sent that separately to him)

I recently had a discussion with a respected member of another board about this very issue. He viewed the box passes on CP as being exactly as you describe. His philosophy (and what he viewed of the CP box passes) was that the host WAS and SHOULD BE "rewarded" for extending himself in a box pass. After lengthy discussion about the issue, one thing is clear. Both of us were saying pretty much the same thing...

Maybe it appears so, but for the most part there is no "profit" in any dealings on this board. There are exceptions to that rule - but generally that is a truism. The "profit" of this board is generosity. I don't see it as a "profit", but I can see where others would view it as such.

I suppose this board exists because the participants have a certain morality specific to this board. Some find it offensive - others revel in it. The reality is - it is unique compared to the other cigar boards. I hope the morality continues. Sadly, I know the numbers of those who fight for that morality on this board seem to be dwindling....

Who knows, maybe this board will eventually evolve into a "profit and loss" kind of board...

 

[AVB]

I've been in passes without a host bag. Maybe the lower end passes run on less "profit"?

 

[ggiese]

I've been in passes without a host bag. Maybe the lower end passes run on less "profit"?

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:laugh:

I guess I should have clarified my remarks... I don't remember anyone putting in a host bag, asking people to contribute to the host bag, or otherwise insinuating there should be a host bag. As a matter of fact - it's been my experience it's quite the opposite. But you're right... :blush:

 

[cohibasurfer]

I wonder how many people would start a box pass if there was no goodie bag at the end of the rainbow.

This site may frown on people making a profit off a group buy, but I can assure you some group buys had profit invloved. At all the other sites it is assumed the person who started it is profiting in some way.

Please understand I am not trying disrespect this site or any of the members here, I just thought this topic would make for some good discussions.

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There are actually quite a few of us Harris. Unfortunately there are probably as many, if not more of the other side also.

 

[CoventryCat86]

I have a huge problem with the whole "host bag" concept and if I receive a pass with a host bag, I never put anything in it. When I started a pass here and on CigarSnobs, I insisted on "no host bag"

I disagree with the notion that the originator of a box pass "makes out" once the pass is returned to him. In my experience, half the cigars that I got back I probably will never smoke so I started it with cigars that were all from my rotation boxes and wound up with quite a few cigars I really don't want.

Maybe it's different for different people but I don't see how in my case I benefited by hosting a pass. If anything, it COST me cigars which is fine because my intent was to have some fun and to give people an opportunity to try some cigars they have never seen or heard of before, etc.

As far as box splits, there are two distinct schools of thought. The first one (that I subscribe to) is that the person organizing it should not be making a profit. I see NO VALUE in making a couple of bucks off of people. If you're THAT hard up for money, you probably shouldn't be buying and selling expensive cigars. While I may not make a dime using my philosophy, the good will and reputation that I earn from it is priceless. The second school of thought is that there are others out there that look at this as some kind of "business." This echeck guy is a classic example, he literaly has just about as many trader comments on CW as he does posts :0 His sole purpose for participating on CW is to do splits and trades and make some profit. I mean c'mon if you're really THAT hard up for extra cash, you'd do better taking a part time job at WalMart or McDonalds :laugh: rather than trying so scalp people on the internet.

 

[The Master]

ggiese, I did not take what you have written on this subject as anything but a good discussion.

I wonder what the percentage is of box passes that have a host bag as compared to those that don't.

Since this site was started as a place to specifically do box passes, it has a completely different out look on the subject. From what I have witnessed over the years on the other sites, box passes are just a way to get free cigars.

 

[wasch_24]

There has always been an alterior motive when it comes to group buys and box passes. Generally in a group buy the person organizing gets to smoke for free. In a box pass the hook is that the originator gets the thank you bag loaded with cigars.

Why else would anyone start one of these if it were not for getting something for nothing. Do you really think someone would take all the time and trouble to package all those cigars in a group buy if he wasn't getting free cigars?

No one does all the work invloved with these just for fun, profit has always been the motivating factor.

In Cliffs case he should have mentioned the ashtray, he also should have mentioned that all of those boxes would definitely have as many as 3-7 cigars plugged cigars.

Finally the issue about the cigars being sold to Cliff with the non aged price(15 percent cheaper) was never really discussed. The vendor Cliff was getting the cigars from routinely gives the buyer the non aged price for the aged cigars epecially when it is a multiple box order. Now I am not accusing Cliff of grabbing the extra 15 percent, but it is certainly a possibility that he did get an extra 15 off the price.

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Let me qualify this post by saying I haven't read the whole thread yet...Harris' post has forced me to post an immediate response.

Whoa, wait just one minute...they offer a multiple box discount? That is news to me, I have run many splits on multiple box orders from them and never even thought to ask for a discount, dammit. PM coming on this Harris.

As far a motivation goes...for me it is to try many different smokes without having to buy many different boxes for my self.

Every participant has paid exactly what it cost me for the smokes, including myself. That doesn't include the customs fees from said vendor either.

IMO anyone trying to smoke for free in a multi box split is an asshole and should be banned from whatever board he is doing it on.

Now, after getting that out there, I will go through and read the rest of the thread.


Edited to tame my tone and fix some typos.

 

[moki]

Some people do box passes to "make out", some people do them for fun. Some people definitely do group buys/box splits as a little cottage industry to let them smoke for free or turn a little profit... others do it because they only want a few sticks from the box and want to hook other people up.

For buying cigars online, there's the maxim "know your source" -- when getting involved in a box pass or box split, know your host. Same thing, really.

There are definitely people I would not get involved in a box split with because I know they are doing 'em for profit. I can get my smokes elsewhere, I don't need to support anyone's cottage industry.

There are also people who I would get involved with for a box split, because I know they are doing it just to try a new cigar, etc.

If you don't care that someone is making a few bucks or a few cigars off of the effort of doing a group buy or box pass (and trust me, there is effort involved), then don't worry about it. Watch who the people who have been around with for a while deal with, and whom they don't. If in doubt, ask.

Know your source.

Know your host.

 

[gtphale]

Wow maybe I should raise the price of my group buys? lol

I have one going now and i'm probably over charging by about 30 cents. For the simple reason i'm not going to deal with pennies.

I have two local guys in my group buy and i'm not charging them the 5 bucks for shipping cause I will herf with them. So I don't see any profit being made on group buys as a majority here anyway. Box passes I have been in I have dropped cigars into a host bag nothing exceptional but decent smokes. I think of it as a thank you cigar.

 

[JimK]

I am actually surprised that there is not more "profit" being made on all these box splits. I put profit in quotes, because when you consider the import risk the host is assuming, I don't think it is a very good way to make money. Nonetheless, I would think the assumption of that risk would be worth some money. For example, imagine there was an option to pay a 10% premium on your box price, in exchage for an iron-clad gaurantee that you would never get a letter, or never face the risk of jail time or a $55,000 fine. I bet a lot of people on this board would utilize it. Perhaps it is de-valued because nobody has ever been prosecuted, that we know of.

I know that the day somebody on one of these boards gets fined and jailed will be the day that there are no more box splits, because nobody will want to assume the risk anymore.

Also, don't you think that box split/group buy hosts benefit from these splits due to their increased purchasing power? In other words, I guy who does a couple group buys that entail the purchase of 10 or 12 boxes of cigars from their favorite vendor is going to get better treatment from that vendor than he otherwise would. This preferenial treatment could come in the form of better prices on future purchases, freebies, or access to better box codes. Again, the host is getting benefits from assuming risks.

Just some thoughts on the subject. I am speaking generally, and not about any particular members or boards.

JK