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Do beads go bad?

Pompous Pugs

New Member
No offense viper, I just have never gotten these beads to calibrate well. I don't know if it is me, the humy or if the beads have gone bad.

I purchased the 65s, but the humi level wavers in the 57-60 range. I have had the beads for at least a year and a half. In the past I had to have a small bowl of distilled water in the humi to raise it higher, but now that does not even seem to help.

It is a 150 count humidor.

Would you be worried with a 57% and 70-72 degrees?


OOOPs-wrong location, my bad, can the admin please relocate this post. Thanx, Pugs
 
Beads are forever so far as I know. I've heard of contamination from not using distilled water I've also heard of bacterial growth for the same reason. I would be looking to the hygrometer to be lying to you.
 
Beads are forever so far as I know. I've heard of contamination from not using distilled water I've also heard of bacterial growth for the same reason. I would be looking to the hygrometer to be lying to you.

In addition to what Bruce advised, you might want to check your seal on the humidor. Could have a leak somewhere.
 
No offense viper, I just have never gotten these beads to calibrate well. I don't know if it is me, the humy or if the beads have gone bad.

I purchased the 65s, but the humi level wavers in the 57-60 range. I have had the beads for at least a year and a half. In the past I had to have a small bowl of distilled water in the humi to raise it higher, but now that does not even seem to help.

It is a 150 count humidor.

Would you be worried with a 57% and 70-72 degrees?


OOOPs-wrong location, my bad, can the admin please relocate this post. Thanx, Pugs

Hey Pug, I got a few questions off the bat... (and they may be stupid, I'm no pro! :rolleyes: )

Is it a wood humi, and does the fluctuation timeline match the raise the use of your AC?

Also, are some of your beads clear, and others white, or are they white consistantly etc?

Lastly (whew) do you use distilled water or tap water to 'refuel' these puppies?

Cheers,
Rob
 
Leave them at a specific range for an extended period of time. Beads are all the same. I won't get into it but there is no little man in each bead regulating humidity. The all start off the same and are placed into a 60,65,70 percent enviroment for at least two weeks or so and that conditions them to that humidity. So if your humi has been reading low for a year they have some how conditioned themselves to that enviroment.
 
Do you have enough beads for the volume of your humi? Viper has volume recommendations/formula (i can't remember which) for the inside volume of the humi. I had to keep re-watering my beads until I doubled the amount that I have in there. I was running 59-62% with 65 beads, now it's a steady 65.
 
To answer Robs question

•It is a wood humi, originally I thought it was based upon location (I was in NJ) and seasons (winters up there are dry). But now that I have lived 3 months in Atlanta and Charlotte during the summer, I was surprised that there was no flucation based upon AC use.
•Somewhere white/clear, now most seem white (and i would describe it with a slight yellowish tint).
•Distilled all the time.

As for the recalibration--that described well what I was wondering may happen. So where can I find beads with the little guy inside of them? Or perhaps I will double up (even though I did follow the formula)--Is there a danger of too many beads?
 
Could be the beads or the hygro..............how are your sticks? Are the satisfactory.....I have been fighting digital and analog hygrometers for years.....i have three in my large cabinet now and one is +4%, one is -5% and the third is -10%...........so this could be your issue.....if your cigars smoke the way you like them then just let it be!
 
Like others have said I would look first to the humi leaking or your hygro being inconsistant. Given that beads are used to preserve priceless workls of art, I would suspect them last if at all.

Good luck!
 
Leave them at a specific range for an extended period of time. Beads are all the same. I won't get into it but there is no little man in each bead regulating humidity. The all start off the same and are placed into a 60,65,70 percent enviroment for at least two weeks or so and that conditions them to that humidity. So if your humi has been reading low for a year they have some how conditioned themselves to that enviroment.
Shooter, I'm not sure that's true. This is how "Kittly Litter" beads work but it was my understanding that the RH control beads Viper (and other) sell have a slight difference in their chemistry that results in the difference in humidity. For example, viper's beads can be "dried out" when they become saturated and will regulate to their specific humidity once again. I'd think if they became conditioned to their environment, that wouldn't be the case.

As I said, I'm not 100% sure. I'll do some more research but maybe Viper or the good professor Wilkey will check in on the subject.

To the OP, it sure sounds like you have a leaky humi, or maybe it's just never gotten conditioned correctly. I've found a shot glass full of distilled water placed inside the humidor does wonders.

Cheers, gents - B.B.S.
 
Leave them at a specific range for an extended period of time. Beads are all the same. I won't get into it but there is no little man in each bead regulating humidity. The all start off the same and are placed into a 60,65,70 percent enviroment for at least two weeks or so and that conditions them to that humidity. So if your humi has been reading low for a year they have some how conditioned themselves to that enviroment.
Shooter, I'm not sure that's true. This is how "Kittly Litter" beads work but it was my understanding that the RH control beads Viper (and other) sell have a slight difference in their chemistry that results in the difference in humidity. For example, viper's beads can be "dried out" when they become saturated and will regulate to their specific humidity once again. I'd think if they became conditioned to their environment, that wouldn't be the case.

As I said, I'm not 100% sure. I'll do some more research but maybe Viper or the good professor Wilkey will check in on the subject.

To the OP, it sure sounds like you have a leaky humi, or maybe it's just never gotten conditioned correctly. I've found a shot glass full of distilled water placed inside the humidor does wonders.

Cheers, gents - B.B.S.


5. METHODS FOR RECONDITIONING SILICA GEL​
5.1 CONDITIONING SILICA GEL OUTSIDE THE EXHIBIT CASE​
5.1.A REMOVING MOISTURE​
The most efficient method of removing moisture is with heat. Although silica gel has a very high melting temperature (1600º C), it will lose its chemically bound water and hygroscopic properties if heated above 300º C. In addition, there is a new class of indicator gels, incorporating organic dyes that are heat sensitive and their color indicating dye will be effected above 125-150º C (Goldberg and Weintraub 2001). Therefore, it is not recommended that indicating silica gel be heated above 120º C and regular gel be heated above 200º C. The principle impact of a lower heat of regeneration is that a longer time is required to dry the gel and there is less potential for the degradation of silica gel properties.​
In a conventional oven, the time of regeneration varies from minutes to hours, depending on temperature and the thickness of the gel. Although silica gel can be dried in a microwave oven, it is difficult to determine the temperature inside the gel. Also, since metal cannot be used in a microwave oven, only glass, ceramic or microwave safe plastic with a high melting temperature should be used to hold the gel, since the individual beads can become very hot.​
5.1.B ADDING MOISTURE​
The simplest method for conditioning silica gel is to place it in a room or environmental chamber set to the desired RH level. The best method of confirming that the silica gel is at the correct RH is by measuring the RH of a sample batch of gel. This is done by placing the sample gel in a sealed container or plastic bag with a hygrometer (use a large amount of gel relative to the surrounding air), and allow a day for the RH within the bag to stabilize with the gel mixture. Although an approximate RH value can be calculated based on weight, this method is not recommended because of its margin of error.​
  1. • Methods of speeding up conditioning time:

    1. [*]o
      Spread the gel as thin as possible.


      [*]o
      Use a fan to circulate air around the gel.


      [*]o
      Periodically mix the gel layers to improve uniformity.

    [*]• For a single layer of bead, allow at least 4 days if the gel is initially dry, and longer if spread as a thicker layer.
    [*]• Silica gel can be conditioned to a higher RH than the desired level, either to speed up the conditioning process or because of the inability to control RH. If so, it is important to allow 2-3 day for the moisture to equilibrate within and between the gel beads, especially if beads with different moisture contents are mixed together.

    [*]• The direct addition of water through mist spraying or immersion is not recommended, since the high heat of decrepitation causes silica gel beads to crack and fragment. Although silica gel retains its hygroscopic properties, the overall response time of silica gel in a tray will slow down because of denser packing from the mix of large beads and smaller fragments.
12
  1. 5.2 METHODS FOR CONDITIONING SILICA GEL WITHOUT REMOVING IT FROM THE EXHIBIT CASE or humi (i added)
Silica gel in cases can be reconditioned by adding water or appropriately conditioned silica gel to the case. This method is very effective if the silica gel is spread into a very thin layer, or has a very fast response time, such as is achieved with Rhapid Gel. Otherwise, only the upper layer of silica gel will be conditioned and there is a risk that the RH within the case will rise or fall too quickly, without adequately conditioning the full bulk of silica gel.​
Increasing or decreasing surface area can control the rate of water evaporation. If there is concern about placing water directly in a case, or if a fast rate of evaporation is desired, a saturated humidifier wicking pad, preferably one treated with an antimicrobial agent, can be used. Generally, water will evaporate more rapidly in this manner because of the extended surface area of the wicking pad compared to a dish of water.​
The initial speed at which dry gel removes excess moisture is very fast. It is important to limit the surface area of dry gel to prevent the case RH from dropping too quickly. This is because the speed at which dry gel adsorbs moisture is faster than the rate at which silica gel desorbs moisture.​
If silica gel is conditioned in place, the rate at which the RH rises or falls within the case must be carefully monitored in order to determine if the rate is acceptable and when the water or dry gel that was placed in the case to condition the main supply of silica gel must be removed.​
It is possible to calculate how much moisture must be added or removed to recondition silica gel in place (Lafontaine 1984, Weintraub 1991). It is important to take into account the impact of other hygroscopic materials inside the case. With experience, adjusting the amount of water or dry gel required may be required to compensate for other hygroscopic materials.​
5.2.A CALCULATE THE AMOUNT OF WATER REQUIRED TO INCREASE RH:​
Multiply the % increase in RH required, the M[sub]H value of the silica gel, and the weight of silica gel within the case.​
For example, if the goal is to raise RH from 45% to 55% in a case containing 2 kilograms of silica gel with an MH of 9, 180 grams of water is required:​
10% RH x 9 (MH) x 2 kg = 180 grams of water​
5.2.B CALCULATE THE AMOUNT OF DRY SILICA GEL REQUIRED TO DECREASE​
RH:​
  1. Step 1 - Determine how much moisture must be removed by multiplying the % decrease in RH required by the MH value of the silica and the total amount of silica gel within the case.
    [*]• Step 2 - Establish the EMC adsorption value for the dry gel at the desired RH set-point and multiply this value by 10, to convert the value to the amount of moisture that can be removed per kilogram of dry gel.
[/sub]13

  1. [*]• Step 3 - Divide the amount of water to be removed (Step 1) by the amount of water that can be removed by a kilogram of dry gel (Step 2). The result is the total amount required to recondition the silica gel in place.
For example, the goal is to lower RH from 55% to 45% in a case containing 2 kilograms of Rhapid Gel (M[sub]H = 9). If the dry gel is a regular density silica gel (EMC = 25% at 45% RH), the amount of dry gel required is 0.72 kilograms:​
1) 10% RH x 9 (MH) x 2 kg = 180 grams of water​
2) 25% EMC x 10 = 250 g of moisture per kg of silica gel at 45% RH​
3) 180g/250 g = 0.72 kilograms​
[/sub]


for all 24 pages of the document.

LINK





Conditioning of ART SORB
Usually, ART SORB is delivered pre-conditioned at 50% RH ±3% RH. Any other value is available for a moderate supplement. In order to avoid any damage to your art work (or cigars) you should always control the conditioning of your ART SORB before use. (A.K.A buying them from someone who has preconditioned them for you) To determine the actual conditioning of the ART SORB material please use a hygrometer which is known to be well calibrated and precise. We consider the Testo 645 with high precision probe best for this purpose and use it for our regular controls. You can use it for readjustment of your hygrothermographs as well.


Measure:
If you wish to measure the actual conditioning of your ART SORB material enclose it together with your hygrometer in a non-permable bag, keep it in a room with constant temperature and read after 24 h.

&
artsorblufft.jpg
The Testo 645 with high precision probe or LUFFT control hygrometer 5804 (on photo) are ideal for this purpose​
If the set point of your ART SORB proves to be too low or to high for your application it will have to be re-conditioned. The rules below will help you and will guarantee a long lifespan to your ART SORB.
  • The thinner the layer of beads (where applicable) the faster and accurate the re-conditioning.
  • After re-conditioning it is advised to stir the ART SORB (cassettes can be turned around slowly) and place it in a non–permable bag for a few days to allow stabilization of moisture.
  • Water should be applied in a purified form.
  • All re-conditioning should be verified for accuracy with the use or a calibrated hygrometer. If cassettes are used it might be sufficient to bring them back to their initial weight printed on the cassette.
Increasing the RH Set Point
1) The simpliest method (but time-consuming) is to put the ART SORB into a room which is known to have the desired relative humidity and let it reach equilibrium. A humidity chamber (sounds like a humidor to me) is perfect, too.

2) Sponge method: (sound familiar) by placing a moist sponge with ART SORB in a sealed case, water can be adsorbed and the weight checked or continuosly monitored until appropriate weight is reached.

3) Direct application of water by misting or a spoon. Dry beads may crack during this process, but this does not change ART SORB's adsorption capacity. Cracking is negligible above a set value of 40-50% RH. (sounds even more familiar)

4) Or "Hey my humidity just shot up after I added a few boxes of smokes" WET SMOKES= an addition of water.

Bead type: a cycle of misting and stirring the beads to promote adsorption should be employed.

Cassette type: care must be taken not to moisten the cardboard. The best method is to humidify a small spot on the PE/PP-mebrane with very little alcohol or isopropanol by means of a slightly ‚wet' kleenex. Then the distilled water passes through the membrane easily. Applied with a spoon the water normally doesn't even touch the cardboard.

Sheet type: a misting and a waiting period should be used to allow adsorption followed by checking with a hygrometer.


Decreasing the RH Set Point
1) Again, a room with the desired relative humidity or a humidity chamber is a simple but time-consuming method.

2) ART SORB can also be dried directly in an oven, but care must be taken not to exceed 65°C. This method won't be quicker than the desiccant-bags following up.

3) The best method is to place ART SORB in a non-permeable bag and to add dry desiccant bags. It is very time-effective and works well for beads and for cassettes. A dry 250 g desiccant bag takes up about 48g of moisture between 0% RH and 40% RH. The desiccant bags can be dried in an oven at 130°C (see page "silica gels...").

4) What do we do, just leave the lid open for awhile and allow the water vapor to escape, ever done that???? I know I have after adding wet smokes and my humidity rises.

In some cases it may be possible to leave ART SORB in the showcase and to correct the RH-value of the showcase simply by adding small amounts of desiccant bags - the easiest and least time consuming procedure.


Precautions
ART SORB contains silica gel and lithium chloride. (the lithium chloride, is the only difference bwtween beads and kittly litter, the latter being straight silica gel) It is harmful if swallowed and irritates skin and eyes. Don't inhale eventual dusts. Further informations see Material Safety Data Sheet..

The water adsorbed by ART SORB is present in a liquid phase on the surface of the particles. Direct contact with metals like iron, zinc and aluminium may cause oxydation. Therefore ART SORB should not be in direct contact with art objects, especially since the liquid is containing chloride ions. The same characteristics apply to dusts. Try to avoid dusting by careful handling and keep them away from your art objects. Don't touch ART SORB and art objects in turns in order not to transfer dusts to them. ART SORB should not be used in an environment with rapid air movements (>1m/s).




MORE INFO


click on ART SORB 60-80% then read that page. Near the end click on "How to use ART SORB for the Preservation of Art" under precautions. This should answer any questions.

Everything in blue was added by me except any links that were already in the document.
 
I think Shooter is basically on target although that document is a helluva read for the layman.

Essentially, silica gel can be conditioned to contain a specific amount of moisture. This moisture is what they then make available as humidity compensation "fuel" in the humidor environment. Unlike salt solutions or propylene glycol solutions, there is no physico-chemical mechanism that intrinsically drives the material toward a thermodynamic equilibrium point. Coupled with the fact that at 65% humidity, the absolute quantity of moisture held in the silica is pretty small, this explains why they need to be spritzed to maintain their "saturation." Also, it may be interesting to note that different grades of amorphous silica gel can be taliored to be more effective in certain RH ranges. What this means is that although commercial humidity control beads may be of the same chemical makeup as crystal kitty litter, their respective capabilities and capacities to buffer humidity swings in the 60-70% RH range may be quite different.

As far as bead getting "fouled" by things that it absorbs from the air, that makes sense as this class of material's main commercial function is scavenging of moisture and other volatile compounds from the atmosphere.

Wilkey
 
Phew I hope that clears it up. For all the kitty litter bashers out there. I use it and it works great. Please show me how KL is so awful for use as a humidty buffer. (not trying to stir the shit) I just read how using kitty litter is such a bad thing, when in fact whats is the real difference. Some people like "beads" and thats fine if thats your bag. I could be reading all this research all wrong if so please lemme know as I don't want to ruin my smokes by using the dreaded KL.

The use of KL is a little more advanced than "beads" due to the fact you have to work a bit, by conditioning them yourself. How ever as you have just read, because you have 65 percent beads does not mean they will stay that way forever. With proper maintainence they will hold that humidity and will last awhile.

In the end it comes down to preference and what makes you feel comfortable. Just as when it comes down to what you like to smoke. Hopefully this helps the understandig of Silica and how it works.
 
I think you guys are crazy. There ARE little men in every bead! With pitchforks and knives..!! And, they are pissed! They kick ass on humidity every chance they get. And they are mean little bastards...!! And the world is flat. Really. NASA is a hoax. There was no trip to the moon. Bigfoot is real......

Alright....I'll just sit over here and be quiet...... :laugh:

Thanks for the info, guys - B.B.S.
 
I think Shooter is basically on target although that document is a helluva read for the layman. ....

....Also, it may be interesting to note that different grades of amorphous silica gel can be taliored to be more effective in certain RH ranges. What this means is that although commercial humidity control beads may be of the same chemical makeup as crystal kitty litter, their respective capabilities and capacities to buffer humidity swings in the 60-70% RH range may be quite different.

Wilkey

Yes, the only difference between KLH and 'Museum Grade" beads are the size of the nanopores within the beads. Which means one will hold an infinitesimally greater or smaller amount of moisture.

The salient point that Wilkey and shooter make though, is that your beads have become reconditioned to its current set point. To recondition them back to 65%, make sure you Hygrometer is calibrated and you have no leaks, then try putting a bowl of PG solution in your humi. The PG will want to drive your RH to 70% so monitor the rise in RH closely. Once it reaches 65% replace the PG solution with distilled water. Continue to monitor for any significant change in RH. If it begins to fall, place the PG solution back in to bring it back to 65%. This should reset your beads to a set point of 65% in a few days.
 
So now that my 65% beads have been sitting at 70% for over a month I can now throw them away and buy new ones? Greeeeeeaaaaaaatttttt.

If I had of know that I would have left them out of my humidor while it was down in the basement, my cellar is 65°F / 70% RH and after my humi was down there for a week or two the beads couldn't absorb anymore and the humi has stayed at 70% RH for well over a month now. So you are basically saying my beads are now fucked and if I want to keep my humidor at 65% during the fall and winter I have to buy a new Aluminum block.

Not cool at all.
 
I think Shooter is basically on target although that document is a helluva read for the layman. ....

....Also, it may be interesting to note that different grades of amorphous silica gel can be taliored to be more effective in certain RH ranges. What this means is that although commercial humidity control beads may be of the same chemical makeup as crystal kitty litter, their respective capabilities and capacities to buffer humidity swings in the 60-70% RH range may be quite different.

Wilkey

Yes, the only difference between KLH and 'Museum Grade" beads are the size of the nanopores within the beads. Which means one will hold an infinitesimally greater or smaller amount of moisture.

The salient point that Wilkey and shooter make though, is that your beads have become reconditioned to its current set point. To recondition them back to 65%, make sure you Hygrometer is calibrated and you have no leaks, then try putting a bowl of PG solution in your humi. The PG will want to drive your RH to 70% so monitor the rise in RH closely. Once it reaches 65% replace the PG solution with distilled water. Continue to monitor for any significant change in RH. If it begins to fall, place the PG solution back in to bring it back to 65%. This should reset your beads to a set point of 65% in a few days.

You posted this while I was typing mine, I'm sure hope your right, but if not or it becomes too much of a PITA to do, I guess Viper gets another order.
 
So now that my 65% beads have been sitting at 70% for over a month I can now throw them away and buy new ones? Greeeeeeaaaaaaatttttt.

If I had of know that I would have left them out of my humidor while it was down in the basement, my cellar is 65°F / 70% RH and after my humi was down there for a week or two the beads couldn't absorb anymore and the humi has stayed at 70% RH for well over a month now. So you are basically saying my beads are now fucked and if I want to keep my humidor at 65% during the fall and winter I have to buy a new Aluminum block.

Not cool at all.

Read the part about reconditioning them. You just have to bring them back down to 65. Beads do not go bad. Just leave the lid open on your humi for a couple hrs aday until it drops to 65 then your are set. Once you leave it at 65 for a week or so and allow everything to equilibriate you will be set.



NO need for new beads.
 
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