Do beads really absorb excess moisture?

[tomthirtysix]

Moving the discussion from another thread into its own thread. This way 1) I don't derail that thread and 2)seeing the thread title may get some more people in here to discuss.

I'm going to relay my experience.

My vinotemp, for the most part, runs mid to high 60s. I have 65% beads inside. I forget exactly what the weight is of the beads, but it's more than enough for the volume of the fridge (based on the website calculator). For the first time in a very long time, humidity was starting to slip, so I added a little water to the beads. After a few days, I noticed the humidity was creeping higher than I wanted. (Yes, they hygro is calibrated)

I took the beads out of the Vino. They were still mostly clear. I took all the beads out of my other humidors, they were all opaque. I spread the wet beads out amongst my other boxes, and pooled all the dry beads and put them in the vino.

One week goes by - the humidity is still at 72% and the beads are still all opaque.

Two weeks go by - the same thing.

After a third week, still no change in either the humidity or the color of the beads.

Meanwhile, the clear beads that were in the Vino and then divided up amongst my other humidors were clearly giving off moisture, with some of them starting to turn opaque.

Here is the first thread where I brought this up, and a couple other posters had the same experiences I've had:
http://www.cigarpass.com/forumsipb/topic/73380-heartfelt-65-beads-coming-in-at-68-69/

 

[Kxthor911]

One of the ways Heardfelt says you can "charge" your beads is to place a bowl of water next to them and let them absorb their moisture. A slow process they say, but it is suggested. I use heartfelt for humidity spikes, but Boveda 65% pouches for normal humidification.

Do you have a vinotemp or a humidor? How many boveda pouches do you need to use in a certain amout of space? Is there a calculation? How would you know how many to use in a wineador?

 

[tomthirtysix]

Looks like you can't access thier page if you're not on FB. I will never understand why businesses choose to do that.

 

[Gern Blansten]

Tom, here is David's response to my question if their beads provide "two way humidification":

"[font="Calibri""]They most certainly DO absorb excess humidity in your humidor. Of course the beads cannot be 100% hydrated for this to happen. That is why we do not recommend that you 100% hydrate the beads when adding distilled water."[/font]

 

[tomthirtysix]

Tom, here is David's response to my question if their beads provide "two way humidification":

"They most certainly DO absorb excess humidity in your humidor. Of course the beads cannot be 100% hydrated for this to happen. That is why we do not recommend that you 100% hydrate the beads when adding distilled water."

Heh... guess it takes more than 3 weeks for my completely dry beads to absorb a single RH percentage point.

 

[LarryH]

Tom, here is David's response to my question if their beads provide "two way humidification":

"They most certainly DO absorb excess humidity in your humidor. Of course the beads cannot be 100% hydrated for this to happen. That is why we do not recommend that you 100% hydrate the beads when adding distilled water."

Heh... guess it takes more than 3 weeks for my completely dry beads to absorb a single RH percentage point.

Tom, Is there any chance the beads have become contaminated? The most likely cause would be using drinking water or spring water instead of distilled water. Both of the previous have minerals that would eventually clog the microscopic pores in the beads making them useless.

 

[BlindedByScience]

Your experience mirrors mine. During the winter months with the heat on in the house, the humidifier cans run pretty hard in the cabinet to hold things at 65% (ambient RH in the 50's quite often). I'd think the many bags of beads would be well conditioned at 65% after several months in that environment. Yet, when it get warm and humid in the summer months, the in cabinet RH creeps right up. The bags of beads don't appear to be doing much in the way of reducing RH.

Yet, when I ran coolers, they'd hold 65% rock solid for months at a time. Maybe i'm doing it wrong.....

Tom, Is there any chance the beads have become contaminated? The most likely cause would be using drinking water or spring water instead of distilled water. Both of the previous have minerals that would eventually clog the microscopic pores in the beads making them useless.

Most 'spring water' has tons of minerals in it. IMHO distilled water is the ONLY thing to use on beads......it's all I use in my humidifier cans.

 

[tomthirtysix]

All I've ever used is distilled. I've got a separate jug that's kept in my bar over near where my humidors are.

Your experience mirrors mine. During the winter months with the heat on in the house, the humidifier cans run pretty hard in the cabinet to hold things at 65% (ambient RH in the 50's quite often). I'd think the many bags of beads would be well conditioned at 65% after several months in that environment. .

I understand the whole conditioning discussion that was brought up here a while back. But like you, there's no way the dry beads I put in to absorb the moisture were re-conditioned at anything higher than 65%. Hell, if anything, it would have been lower 60s, which should have made them absorb more humidity.

 

[LarryH]

I was curious about RH versus temperature, wondering what 65% RH at 75 degrees would be at 68 degrees. I found this site with a cool calculator to figure it out...

http://hyperphysics....tic/relhum.html

65% RH at 75 degrees = 81.62% RH at 68 Degrees

I didn't expect it to be that much more (if I did it right). I'm not sure how beads function at various temperatures. As the temperature drops will the beads continue to soak up the available moisture to try to maintain 65% or will the RH rise because the beads are set at 65% at say 75 degrees, or am I backward?

 

[Kxthor911]

I was curious about RH versus temperature, wondering what 65% RH at 75 degrees would be at 68 degrees. I found this site with a cool calculator to figure it out...

http://hyperphysics....tic/relhum.html

65% RH at 75 degrees = 81.62% RH at 68 Degrees

I didn't expect it to be that much more (if I did it right). I'm not sure how beads function at various temperatures. As the temperature drops will the beads continue to soak up the available moisture to try to maintain 65% or will the RH rise because the beads are set at 65% at say 75 degrees, or am I backward?

Larry, I am not a bead expert by any means. But it seems to me the warmer it is the harder the beads will have to work, thus I believe you did say it backwards. Not sure if you ment to though because of the smiley.

 

[MrAnderson41]

I was curious about RH versus temperature, wondering what 65% RH at 75 degrees would be at 68 degrees. I found this site with a cool calculator to figure it out...

http://hyperphysics....tic/relhum.html

65% RH at 75 degrees = 81.62% RH at 68 Degrees

I didn't expect it to be that much more (if I did it right). I'm not sure how beads function at various temperatures. As the temperature drops will the beads continue to soak up the available moisture to try to maintain 65% or will the RH rise because the beads are set at 65% at say 75 degrees, or am I backward?

Larry, I am not a bead expert by any means. But it seems to me the warmer it is the harder the beads will have to work, thus I believe you did say it backwards. Not sure if you ment to though because of the smiley.

Larry did say it right. The cooler the air is the less quantity of water it can hold. This is because the air becomes more dense and there is less space for the water to fit. That is why it's called a RELATIVE humidity. Meaning if I'm sitting at 65% RH at 75 degrees in a perfectly sealed environment and then drop the temperature to 68 degrees the RH would now be 81%.

I have no idea how the beads work, but I've got to assume they are capable of absorbing a set amount of water. I have no idea how on earth a bead would be smart enought to know what the temperature is and be able to absorb or release water based on the temperature. It's a very interesting question though and if they aren't "smart" beads they probably should be advertised as XX% at XX degrees.

I know from my personal experience that my sticks are kept at about 70 degrees all year long (+/- 1 or 2 deg) and the RH stays a pretty constant 65% RH (+/- 2 or 3%). The other thing people often neglect (not saying BBS or Tom do this) is that there is an accuracy to the beads and to your instrument that stack up so there's no need to worry as long as you're within about 3%.

 

[broblues]

I was curious about RH versus temperature, wondering what 65% RH at 75 degrees would be at 68 degrees. I found this site with a cool calculator to figure it out...

http://hyperphysics....tic/relhum.html

65% RH at 75 degrees = 81.62% RH at 68 Degrees

I didn't expect it to be that much more (if I did it right). I'm not sure how beads function at various temperatures. As the temperature drops will the beads continue to soak up the available moisture to try to maintain 65% or will the RH rise because the beads are set at 65% at say 75 degrees, or am I backward?

Thanks Larry.......I always knew there was a formula, but I could never find it. Great, Great new knowledge. Again, Thanks.

 

[Setharsis]

I was curious about RH versus temperature, wondering what 65% RH at 75 degrees would be at 68 degrees. I found this site with a cool calculator to figure it out...

http://hyperphysics....tic/relhum.html

65% RH at 75 degrees = 81.62% RH at 68 Degrees

I didn't expect it to be that much more (if I did it right). I'm not sure how beads function at various temperatures. As the temperature drops will the beads continue to soak up the available moisture to try to maintain 65% or will the RH rise because the beads are set at 65% at say 75 degrees, or am I backward?

Larry, I am not a bead expert by any means. But it seems to me the warmer it is the harder the beads will have to work, thus I believe you did say it backwards. Not sure if you ment to though because of the smiley.

Larry did say it right. The cooler the air is the less quantity of water it can hold. This is because the air becomes more dense and there is less space for the water to fit. That is why it's called a RELATIVE humidity. Meaning if I'm sitting at 65% RH at 75 degrees in a perfectly sealed environment and then drop the temperature to 68 degrees the RH would now be 81%.

I have no idea how the beads work, but I've got to assume they are capable of absorbing a set amount of water. I have no idea how on earth a bead would be smart enought to know what the temperature is and be able to absorb or release water based on the temperature. It's a very interesting question though and if they aren't "smart" beads they probably should be advertised as XX% at XX degrees.

I know from my personal experience that my sticks are kept at about 70 degrees all year long (+/- 1 or 2 deg) and the RH stays a pretty constant 65% RH (+/- 2 or 3%). The other thing people often neglect (not saying BBS or Tom do this) is that there is an accuracy to the beads and to your instrument that stack up so there's no need to worry as long as you're within about 3%.

Beads will also release water as a function of temperature. As temperatures increase, the water in the beads will increase in vapor pressure and release more moisture. Whether they have been calibrated for their ratings at all temperatures, I have no idea.

 

[LarryH]

I was curious about RH versus temperature, wondering what 65% RH at 75 degrees would be at 68 degrees. I found this site with a cool calculator to figure it out...

http://hyperphysics....tic/relhum.html

65% RH at 75 degrees = 81.62% RH at 68 Degrees

I didn't expect it to be that much more (if I did it right). I'm not sure how beads function at various temperatures. As the temperature drops will the beads continue to soak up the available moisture to try to maintain 65% or will the RH rise because the beads are set at 65% at say 75 degrees, or am I backward?

Thanks Larry.......I always knew there was a formula, but I could never find it. Great, Great new knowledge. Again, Thanks.

Glad I could help. I've been keeping my humidors downstairs where it's 60 degrees. While I was looking for the humidity info I read that 60 degrees it too cold and could lead to mold. Also 65% RH at 60 degrees is dryer than 65% at 68 degrees so your sticks become under humidified. I moved them upstairs last night. I really need to get a wineador since the house is too warm in the summer.

 

[broblues]

I was curious about RH versus temperature, wondering what 65% RH at 75 degrees would be at 68 degrees. I found this site with a cool calculator to figure it out...

http://hyperphysics....tic/relhum.html

65% RH at 75 degrees = 81.62% RH at 68 Degrees

I didn't expect it to be that much more (if I did it right). I'm not sure how beads function at various temperatures. As the temperature drops will the beads continue to soak up the available moisture to try to maintain 65% or will the RH rise because the beads are set at 65% at say 75 degrees, or am I backward?

Thanks Larry.......I always knew there was a formula, but I could never find it. Great, Great new knowledge. Again, Thanks.

Glad I could help. I've been keeping my humidors downstairs where it's 60 degrees. While I was looking for the humidity info I read that 60 degrees it too cold and could lead to mold. Also 65% RH at 60 degrees is dryer than 65% at 68 degrees so your sticks become under humidified. I moved them upstairs last night. I really need to get a wineador since the house is too warm in the summer.

Wineadors don't get a lot warmer than 64 or 65 degrees. Mine runs around 64.

I still think the mold problem is over humidification.

 

[Bxcigrfan]

so then if i want to keep my sticks at 68* environment does that mean i want my humidity to be 65% or do i want it to be 81%
and vice versa if my temps go up into the 80's do i want to make sure my humidity is lower than the 65% i was shooting for at 75*?

 

[LarryH]

I was curious about RH versus temperature, wondering what 65% RH at 75 degrees would be at 68 degrees. I found this site with a cool calculator to figure it out...

http://hyperphysics....tic/relhum.html

65% RH at 75 degrees = 81.62% RH at 68 Degrees

I didn't expect it to be that much more (if I did it right). I'm not sure how beads function at various temperatures. As the temperature drops will the beads continue to soak up the available moisture to try to maintain 65% or will the RH rise because the beads are set at 65% at say 75 degrees, or am I backward?

Thanks Larry.......I always knew there was a formula, but I could never find it. Great, Great new knowledge. Again, Thanks.

Glad I could help. I've been keeping my humidors downstairs where it's 60 degrees. While I was looking for the humidity info I read that 60 degrees it too cold and could lead to mold. Also 65% RH at 60 degrees is dryer than 65% at 68 degrees so your sticks become under humidified. I moved them upstairs last night. I really need to get a wineador since the house is too warm in the summer.

Wineadors don't get a lot warmer than 64 or 65 degrees. Mine runs around 64.

I still think the mold problem is over humidification.

Yes. From the calculator... With a humidor sitting at 78 degrees and 65% (roughly my summertime conditions) the dew point is 65 degrees. I don't know how quickly the beads could pull the excess moisture out of the humidor as the temperate fell to 60 but it could explain why I found a stick with some mold last fall.

 

[ntxsage]

For what it's worth my experience using new heartfelt beads were that they appeared to remove humidity, especially once the cooler was fully sealed with rope caulk. As a newbie I built a coolerdor and was seasoning cedar planks at the same time I was storing cigars. I had a half pound of beads in a large/flat tupperware tray in the bottom, and a few newly cut 3"x10" pieces of cedar used as shelves, along with a few empty cigar boxes all wiped down with distilled water. I used far more beads than needed based on the size of my cooler. I was shooting for 70%.

Humidity started out at 74% and began dropping about 1% per day. When it got to 69%, I figured maybe something was wrong and wanted to make sure the cedar had taken all the moisture it could, so I put a small bowl of distilled water in the coolerdor. I was shooting for a stable 70%. Humidity rose at first but within a day it started to drop again slowly - even with the bowl of water. Stuck again around 69% My rope caulk arrived and I sealed the coolerdor lid with what has to be pretty close to an air tight seal given the effort required to open or close it. Next time I checked the RH was 66% and the water in the bowl was noticeably lower.

I was trying to figure out what was wrong before remembering I'd put 65% beads in there and still had my 70% beads waiting to put in another container I'd recently ordered. I was building that cooler for soon to be smoked sticks, and couldn't remember whether you were supposed to store at 65 and smoke at 70 or vice versa...must've just gotten them mixed up. After realizing my mistake I took the distilled water bowl out and the RH has been 65% everytime I've opened the cooler since.

 

[MrAnderson41]

so then if i want to keep my sticks at 68* environment does that mean i want my humidity to be 65% or do i want it to be 81%
and vice versa if my temps go up into the 80's do i want to make sure my humidity is lower than the 65% i was shooting for at 75*?

Can't really answer the first part because we're not sure what temperature the 65% RH beads are "calibrated" for. But you're absolutely right about the second part, as you're temperature goes up you should be shooting for lower RH% numbers but that'll be difficult because naturally as ambient temps go up there is usually more water in the air and therefore a higher RH% as well.

Think of it this way. Say you have a 1 ft x 1 ft x 1 ft box full of baseballs. The baseballs represent warm air. The empty space between the baseballs is open and water could be present in that space.. Then consider the same box but filled with golf balls. The golf balls represent cool air. Again the empty space between the golf balls is open and water could be present in that space. Now if you filled each box with water and then measured the volume of water present in each box, there would be more water in the box full of baseballs. Since both boxes are 1 cubic foot the box with baseballs has a higher RH because a higher percentage of that volume is full of water than the box of golf balls.

 

[broblues]

So you're telling me not to fill my Humi with baseballs?

Just kidding..great analogy!