HYPER-AGED HABANOS

[alpi57]

In a recent trip down "south" I set out to get opinions from whomever I could find: Rollers,LCDH managers, Factory managers, growers, Habanos marketing manager and few old time smokers.

And the burning question for me was how long is long enough to age Habanos?
Is there a specific tobacco that is more amenable to aging than other?

We all have heard Min Ron Nees' opinions on the matter. But after having tried dozen or more Habanos with 10-35 years of age, I was disappointed by my tasting results. They were great but perhaps I expected Nirvana and I only got earthly pleasures. This led me to find out why "experts" rave about these aged gems which only serves to send their prices into stratosphere, obtainable only in snobbish auction houses and untouchable by the average smoker out there.

So to my great surprise, most of my abovementioned subjects interviewed were of the opinion that 5-7 years is the optimum time a Habanos needs to reach its full potential and anything after that will start to lose flavor and strength due to loss of oils from the tobacco. Perfect storage was assumed.

I pressed on to find out why then all the hype about these 30-40 year old cigars and the opinions varied from marketing ploys to only certain tobaccos like that high of an age to "it sells books and cigars" and etc.

I would like to get the opinion of the experienced members as to why do they think some Habanos can be aged for a long time and is there a certain brand of tobacco that ages better above the 5-7 years mark.

 

[smokelaw1]

GREAT topic for conversation. My expereince with cigars more than 7-10 years old is rather limited, but I look forward to hearing what some of the guys here have to say. I know that I like most cigars with 7 or so years. There are some that are great with 2, but even those are much better with 5.
As for the 80s I have smoked, those were "special" cigars, and I enjoyed them at least as much for the rareness as for the actual cigar I was smoking. {EDIT--this does nto read quite right. Some of these 80's cigars (as well as some early 90's) were absolutely wonderfukl, top-notch , high-90's rated cigars...some..maybe 2 of them, on the other hand, were more valuable due to brand and age than as the the actual quality and enjoyment of the smoke]
The SINGLE 1970's I smoked was absolutely exquisite, but I can not form an opinion based on that one smoke, other than that I would smoke them exclusively if I could.

 

[Matt R]

As with any cigar, taste is in the eye, or taste buds, of the smoker. Aged Havanas have a very unique taste, IMO. The flavors while often not as strong as they originally were, seem to develop a depth to them that young tobacco does not have. There are limits to that though and I think those limits cannot be defined in as general a period as has been done in the 5-7 year quote. The tobaccos of the 70's-80's are different from those used today and that may very well be a determinate factor in the way they age. Obviously storage becomes a huge factor when aging cigars. Any variance, even over a short period of time can cause detrimental effects on the cigars. This is why verified cigars coming from caves such as those at Davidoff or JJ Fox always seem to demand very high prices at auction.

I have a problem with narrowing down any set time period for aging cigars as a general rule, because there are too many variables. I do think that if you were to average the general cigar purchases and the general storage techniques, 5-7 years may very well be the benchmark. But, to narrow that down to every cigar, I think a person is cheating themselves out of some great cigar smoking in 10+ years. It doesn't take a mathematic formula to figure it all out, it just takes experience. I've smoked a lot of aged cigars, but have no where near the experience to be able to predict the future of 90% of the newer cigars I smoke.

 

[NorCalCigarLover]

As with any cigar, taste is in the eye, or taste buds, of the smoker. Aged Havanas have a very unique taste, IMO. The flavors while often not as strong as they originally were, seem to develop a depth to them that young tobacco does not have. There are limits to that though and I think those limits cannot be defined in as general a period as has been done in the 5-7 year quote. The tobaccos of the 70's-80's are different from those used today and that may very well be a determinate factor in the way they age. Obviously storage becomes a huge factor when aging cigars. Any variance, even over a short period of time can cause detrimental effects on the cigars. This is why verified cigars coming from caves such as those at Davidoff or JJ Fox always seem to demand very high prices at auction.

I have a problem with narrowing down any set time period for aging cigars as a general rule, because there are too many variables. I do think that if you were to average the general cigar purchases and the general storage techniques, 5-7 years may very well be the benchmark. But, to narrow that down to every cigar, I think a person is cheating themselves out of some great cigar smoking in 10+ years. It doesn't take a mathematic formula to figure it all out, it just takes experience. I've smoked a lot of aged cigars, but have no where near the experience to be able to predict the future of 90% of the newer cigars I smoke.

So what kind of variance are you talking about Matt, humidity? temperature? location? or a combination of all of these?. And what would you consider a short period of time? I, good or bad, relate a lot of this type of discussion to the similarities of aging wine where there are a lot of do's and don't's as well. Many of which are blown way out of proportion by the so called "experts" on the subject matter. I appreciate your experience in this area Matt, and your "real world, your palate" approach to aging.

David

 

[Matt R]

I don't think a couple of days is going to hurt anything, but sometimes you'll find a box sitting in someone's abandoned guest house that was stuck under their extra shirts and fishing tackle. That might make a difference. LMAO!

But seriously, I think you'll find it very much in line with wine aging, though I don't believe there can really be a vintage crop of tobacco to narrow it down as easily as with wines. Very many of the vintage cigars that go for extraordinary amounts at a Chritie's auction never left the confines of Davidoff or JJ Fox, for example. They were stored there for years and years, thus making their storage very well maintained and controlled. Moving cigars back and forth between humidors several times over years and years is going to take a toll on the tobacco. I know very little about aging wine, other than what the temps are to be kept at, etc., but with tobacco, it doesn't take too awful long before the oils can dry out. The humidity level of a cigar can be revived, but once the oils are gone from the leaves, they are gone. So, any chance in environment can have an effect on the leaves. Is it going to happne between the UK and the US? Probably not, but depending on the amount of time and the temperature swings during that time, you never know what the effect could be. Just opening a box can have an effect on the cigars, IMO.

So, for what little knowledge I have, the best bet for an improving cigar being aged for multiple years, would be stored consistently in the sealed box. I've found single cigars do not age nearly as well as those packed together with their original brothers and sisters.

 

[Wurm]

To only take this a little off topic, Matt you mentioned storing in caves... AFAIK the Balboa cigars produced in Panama by Darier & Cleef are stored in caves and is one of their claims to fame as it were.

And they are more expensive as sin...

Are there a number of manufacturers that use natural caves or other underground storage areas to age their cigars?

*edit* Forgot to add, Great thread gentlemen! :thumbs:

 

[Matt R]

When I say cave, I basically mean the storage rooms. They are not really caves. Though, if you had access to one, I think it would be a great place to store your cigars, though maybe a bit damp.

 

[moki]

I would like to get the opinion of the experienced members as to why do they think some Habanos can be aged for a long time and is there a certain brand of tobacco that ages better above the 5-7 years mark.

Tobacco blends are like wine, there's a certain point at which the taste ceases maturing/developing, and goes into decline. There's no hard and fast rule when that is, it depends on part on the taste of the person in question, but also the tobacco that's actually in the cigars.

Different lines of cigars tend to have different sweet spots for me, but it's certainly possible that this will vary year over year, depending on the tobacco used.

 

[Wascal]

This is a intriguing question and one that has been debated often. There are too many variables at play to have a hard and fast rule. It seems to be the choice of many to find a brand that you like and put a couple boxes away. Try one every 6 months until they achieve the flavor you like. I have tried cigars that were 3 years old and they smoked great. Some 10 years old that developed great flavor but still had tannins present and need a bit more sleep time.
As for storing in unopened boxes, there is a large opinion that once a box is opened it will never develop the same flavor of an unopened one. It has to do with the amount of oxygen in the box and the inter reaction with the molecules released from the cigars in the closed environment. Opening the box introduces fresh oxygen and forever changes the inter reaction. Yes, there is a constant "breathing" of the box but it's minuscule compared to opening the box.
It comes down to trying several different brands and of different ages within the brand till you find something you like. And all of us will like things a bit different than the next guy. Then when you do find something you like buy all you can afford.



PS Yes, I still read the postings here like many of the older members. Just because we don't post doesn't mean we aren't around.

 

[alpi57]

I have got into the habit of buying two or three boxes of whatever I like. I usually go after cabinets if I intend to age them. One box is for testing and smoking and the others for aging. I am not sure if I can quite agree with your assessment as far as box opening and exposure to oxygen. Unless the cigars are wrapped in aluminun e.g. RyJ Cazadores, they will be exposed to oxygen. How else humidity gets circulated within the box and therefore the oxygen and most cabinets don't have a good seal.

Another issue with long term aging is storage. Most people don't have perfect ambient control and that necesitates checking the box every so often for proper storage, worms and etc. So I think that is why it takes longer for some cigars to age well due to exposure as oppose to an aluminum wrapped bundle which might take half as much time to reach its full potential.

I appreciate the posts so far. This is a good discussion. I wish we could do this over some nice aged tobacco and our favorite liquer.

 

[grateful1]

I appreciate the posts so far. This is a good discussion. I wish we could do this over some nice aged tobacco and our favorite liquer.

You mean you didn't meet up with George?

I'm sure there would have been a nice conversation.

 

[N2Advnture]

It all depends on the smoke, IMHO of course.

Some are starting to get really good at 3 years (lots), others take 8 year before they even start (SS#2s for example), others take even longer.

Not to mention, a lot has to do with personal preference. :thumbs:

~Mark

 

[jabba]

From my experience (limited) the thinner rings take less time to reach peak than the thicker rings... usually, unless you have a thinner ring that is mostly ligero... again, my opinion is based on very limited testing.

 

[moki]

I appreciate the posts so far. This is a good discussion. I wish we could do this over some nice aged tobacco and our favorite liquer.

Your place or mine..... sweetcheeks! :whistling:

 

[Burnt Tongue]

I have got into the habit of buying two or three boxes of whatever I like. I usually go after cabinets if I intend to age them. One box is for testing and smoking and the others for aging. I am not sure if I can quite agree with your assessment as far as box opening and exposure to oxygen. Unless the cigars are wrapped in aluminun e.g. RyJ Cazadores, they will be exposed to oxygen. How else humidity gets circulated within the box and therefore the oxygen and most cabinets don't have a good seal.

Another issue with long term aging is storage. Most people don't have perfect ambient control and that necesitates checking the box every so often for proper storage, worms and etc. So I think that is why it takes longer for some cigars to age well due to exposure as oppose to an aluminum wrapped bundle which might take half as much time to reach its full potential.

I appreciate the posts so far. This is a good discussion. I wish we could do this over some nice aged tobacco and our favorite liquer.

Does that mean that you should not remove the celophane from a box you want to store for more then a couple of years?

 

[alpi57]

I have got into the habit of buying two or three boxes of whatever I like. I usually go after cabinets if I intend to age them. One box is for testing and smoking and the others for aging. I am not sure if I can quite agree with your assessment as far as box opening and exposure to oxygen. Unless the cigars are wrapped in aluminun e.g. RyJ Cazadores, they will be exposed to oxygen. How else humidity gets circulated within the box and therefore the oxygen and most cabinets don't have a good seal.

Another issue with long term aging is storage. Most people don't have perfect ambient control and that necesitates checking the box every so often for proper storage, worms and etc. So I think that is why it takes longer for some cigars to age well due to exposure as oppose to an aluminum wrapped bundle which might take half as much time to reach its full potential.

I appreciate the posts so far. This is a good discussion. I wish we could do this over some nice aged tobacco and our favorite liquer.

Does that mean that you should not remove the celophane from a box you want to store for more then a couple of years?

What celophane?

I appreciate the posts so far. This is a good discussion. I wish we could do this over some nice aged tobacco and our favorite liquer.

You mean you didn't meet up with George?

I'm sure there would have been a nice conversation.

I appreciate the posts so far. This is a good discussion. I wish we could do this over some nice aged tobacco and our favorite liquer.

Your place or mine..... sweetcheeks! :whistling:

Never mind. I should have known this was a bad idea.

 

[grateful1]

Never mind. I should have known this was a bad idea.

That's too bad. We have a NY HERF coming up soon. I'll be there and we might even persuade Moki to

...climb down from the hilltop, baby,

and get back in the race.



Quick name that song!

 

[Ginseng]

I have got into the habit of buying two or three boxes of whatever I like. I usually go after cabinets if I intend to age them. One box is for testing and smoking and the others for aging. I am not sure if I can quite agree with your assessment as far as box opening and exposure to oxygen. Unless the cigars are wrapped in aluminun e.g. RyJ Cazadores, they will be exposed to oxygen. How else humidity gets circulated within the box and therefore the oxygen and most cabinets don't have a good seal.

Another issue with long term aging is storage. Most people don't have perfect ambient control and that necesitates checking the box every so often for proper storage, worms and etc. So I think that is why it takes longer for some cigars to age well due to exposure as oppose to an aluminum wrapped bundle which might take half as much time to reach its full potential.

I appreciate the posts so far. This is a good discussion. I wish we could do this over some nice aged tobacco and our favorite liquer.

Jon,

Exposure to oxygen is unavoidable. Even Quintero Brevas and RyJ Cazadores are only packed in foil laminated paper. I've written extensively on another forum about the processes of transpiration through the cigar box (or cab)and it's a fact that cigars will always be in contact with humidity and oxygen, but minimizing fresh air exposure is the key. Allowing aerobic reactions to occur but slowing them down by reducing access to fresh air serves to slow down the chemical processes and it is postulated that this results in more elegant aging.

Glass and aluminum tubos are much closer to the ideal of a "time capsule" but even they are not perfectly sealed.

As busy as I am now, I'd welcome some fresh tobacco and a cup of instant coffee.

Wilkey

 

[alpi57]

Thanks for the comments Wilkey. Always informative and enlightening.

 

[AVB]

Dreams by Greg Allman also the title of the Allman Brothers 4 CD box set.

Never mind. I should have known this was a bad idea.

That's too bad. We have a NY HERF coming up soon. I'll be there and we might even persuade Moki to

...climb down from the hilltop, baby,

and get back in the race.



Quick name that song!