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Mixing 65% and 70% beads

Since its snowing in Denver right now, I'll use an analogy. Viper beads is heat using a thermostat. Set your comfort temp and go take a nap. You could also chose to heat your home with fireplaces. You have one in each in each room to heat your home. They've worked fine for centuries. However, sometimes it gets really hot, sometimes it gets cold depending on how much time you can spend keeping up the fires.

Your anology is wrong! :rolleyes:

I have used the KLH for years in a cabinet humidor and it is rock steady. Note I said cabinet humidor...... all the humidity one could need for any size humidor. Here is a document I had put together a few years ago. I have no idea what the kitty litter sells for today but I made 4 lbs of conditioned beads for under $10 several years back and am still using it today. Its not rocket science no matter how anal you are.... its controlled humidity. :)


"KLH" or Kitty Litter Humidification

Humidity Control with conditioned Silica Gel

One can make generic 'Climaxx Beads' at any desired control point above 40% Relative humidity (RH) by buffering/conditioning generic silica gel.

Buy a container of silica gel crystals/beads used in cat box liter like 'ExquisiCat Crystals' or 'Kitty Pearl'. (around $8-$10 for approx 4 pounds). Read the label and verify the contents are 100% silica gel crystals. Don't use the product with blue colored crystals mixed in. The beads will be white/clear/opaque. Smell the silica gel crystals/beads and make certain no fragrance is present; there should be no smell whatsoever. Reread this paragraph. It is important that what you buy is 100% silica gel crystals without any colored crystals/beads mixed in with it and absolutely no fragrance.

Silica gel will 'condition', that is, accept or reject water vapor to maintain an equilibrium RH. The easiest way to condition the beads is to place them in a humidor that is already stable at the humidification level you want to 'set' the beads to or a container that you can control the humidity level within. You will need an accurate hygrometer. Place your beads into the control environment you have chosen once you have the humidity within stable at the level you want to condition the beads to. You will stir the beads daily so that all the beads are being conditioned but do it quickly. You're trying to maintain the environment and a open door or lid allows that enviroment to change. The less changing of air the better. Keep in mind that the beads will be absorbing humidification from the environment and this will naturally drop the humidity reading from within this environment. Lets say your set point is 65% RH. Once you have the environment holding steady at this level you will introduce the beads. The humidity reading will drop. After a day or so, maybe sooner or maybe longer, the humidity will start to rise. As the beads continue to absorb the moisture within the environment the humidity reading will continue to rise. Replenish your humidification device as needed until the beads plateau at your desired % of humidity. This may take a few days or a week or two but the objective is to get the environment to stabilize at the desired % of humidity you want to 'set' the beads and then maintain it at that level for approx 2 weeks. Once these beads have been maintained at the desired level for two weeks you have 'set' the beads memory and you may now remove them and use them. They will maintain the same level as what you set the memory to.

As you use the beads when the humidity drops a few points you should lightly mist the beads with distilled water and it will once again regulate the humidity at the set point. I conditioned mine at 65% and find when my humidity levels drop to approx 63/62 its time to give them a misting and that takes the humidity right back to 65% (sometimes 66/67%). If you desire to reset the memory set point its as simply as maintaining the beads at the new 'Set' level you desire for two weeks. I would recommend reconditioning any beads left in an uncontrolled environment for longer than a week

I personally used an old humidor with a divider to keep the beads to one side and my humidifier to the other. The humidifier I used was a Cigar Oasis which really made things simple as all I had to do was first get the humidity in the humidor level to 65 (my desired set point) then add the beads and stir daily. Since the Cigar Oasis is automatic and I had already set it to maintain 65% all I had to do was make sure the oasis did not run out of distilled water. Once the beads finally reached 65% the Cigar Oasis maintained that for the two week period and I was done.

Do not get caught up in everything having to happen immediately. This is a slow process and you really can't screw it up. You can not take a short cut by adding water to the beads. You need to allow the beads to slowly absorb the humidity from within your controlled environment and it will take some time for them to rise to your desired set point. Do not get discouraged. If the humidity is low and rising towards your goal set point then everything is working as it should. Should the rising humidity stall for a day or two at a point lower than your memory set point goal I would recommend you check whatever device you are using for humidification as the beads may have absorbed it all and you will need to recharge the humidifier. You can use any container to condition the beads as long as you can create and maintain a humidified environment at the level you want to 'Set' the beads to.


Everything is right except you can add water to the beads..... not reccomended

The simplest method for conditioning silica gel is to place it in a room or environmental chamber set to the desired RH level. The best method of confirming that the silica gel is at the correct RH is by measuring the RH of a sample batch of gel. This is done by placing the sample gel in a sealed container or plastic bag with a hygrometer (use a large amount of gel relative to the surrounding air), and allow a day for the RH within the bag to stabilize with the gel mixture. Although an approximate RH value can be calculated based on weight, this method is not recommended because of its margin of error.​
  1. • Methods of speeding up conditioning time:


    1. [*]o
      Spread the gel as thin as possible.


      [*]o
      Use a fan to circulate air around the gel.


      [*]o
      Periodically mix the gel layers to improve uniformity.
  2. • For a single layer of bead, allow at least 4 days if the gel is initially dry, and longer if spread as a thicker layer.


  3. • Silica gel can be conditioned to a higher RH than the desired level, either to speed up the conditioning process or because of the inability to control RH. If so, it is important to allow 2-3 day for the moisture to equilibrate within and between the gel beads, especially if beads with different moisture contents are mixed together.


  4. • The direct addition of water through mist spraying or immersion is not recommended, since the high heat of decrepitation causes silica gel beads to crack and fragment. Although silica gel retains its hygroscopic properties, the overall response time of silica gel in a tray will slow down because of denser packing from the mix of large beads and smaller fragments.


 
I don't disagree that the KLH work fine. My point is simple. With the "Viper" beads, the beads are the control. With KLH, YOU are the control. I can saturate the Viper beads - soak them in water. As long as I don't put them back in my cabinet with surface moisture (water stuck to the bead by surface tension), they will maintain their programmed RH and no more.
 
It would depend on the ratio of beads to cubic inches of air, and what RH they are conditioned to.

e.g. what would happen to the humidity in a cooler if you filled it completely full of soaked to the bone 65% beads, shut the lid and left it for a week?
 
They will maintain the humidity that they were conditioned to until the moisture is absorbed out. They are 100% Silica gel beads just as the ones you bought are. They will work just as yours do once they are "conditioned" to a "set" point and will continue to work for years. I'm guessing I have been using mine for 3 years or so and after the initial "conditioning" have done nothing but mist the beads when the humidity starts to drop. After misting the beads the humidity will return to the % you originally conditioned the beads to.... exactly like the more expensive beads.

Yes, there is some initial work that has to be done (only once) to "condition" them but once "conditioned" there is no working difference in the two. One does not work better than the other. They will function the same. Absorb when the air is over saturated and expel when under...... until the water vapor held by the beads are expended.

While there is no difference in how either of the beads we're talking about works there is a vastly different cost factor and its not a small gap. I'm not one to try and save a buck on do it yourself projects unless there's a payoff. The simple process of conditioning the beads made it a no brainer to me. The amount of beads I bought for $10 (KLH) would have cost over $120 in the other format. YMMV!
 
Not if they were complety soaked in a closed enviroment with no room to off load the excess water..... My point being that there has to be enough air to be able to do that. Hence if you over water your 65 beads you will find you humidity jumps up and you have open your humi re establish the equilibrium. You are in a sense reconditioning them....
 
While I think I understand what you're saying I'm not sure it pertains to the point I was making. KLH works the exact same way as the more expensive beads once conditioned. There is no difference to how they absorb or release humidity. Either of the bead types being over saturated will be...well, over sauturated.

To your satement of over saturating the beads...... Yes, over saturating the beads will not produce a desired result of maintaining a controlled enviroment for the obvious reason of the beads being over saturated and unable to absorb the additional moiture. The amount of area in the enviroment, the condition of the cigars in this enviroment, the type of wood used in the humidor, etc all come into play as to how much of the excess saturation will elevate the humidity. There is of course a very simple solution to this..... don't over saturate the beads. (if you do accidently over saturate beads just take them out and stick a hair dryer on them for a few minutes.... problem solved. :) )
 
They work the exact same way just not as efficient in their response time to a change in humidity... My whole point is people think there is a genie in each bead with a humistat. It is all about conditing the bead where you want it, letting it stablize and you are done, whether it be 60,65,67,72,80.... Beads or KLH will condition the same...
 
They work the exact same way just not as efficient in their response time to a change in humidity...

Please share the data. Never did a controlled study on the response time to humidity change but from my own usage have never been able to discern a difference. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. Are you speaking to how long it takes for the bead to react to releasing or absorbing when the humidity changes? If so, how was it measured?
 
Been using KLH for a few years as well, work exactly like "viper" beads.

-D
 
Ugh I give up......

They are not the same.

KLH will do the job.

KLH is not as efficent at buffering humidity. Beads will lose/gain more water per pound than KLH

It takes roughly 5 pounds of KLH to do the job of one pound of beads. (if the beads have the buffering capacity I think do)

Beads come pre-conditioned. (however you can reset them)
KLH you have to condition.


Those are the basics. If you want the scientific stuff pm me, its 24 pages long...
 
Thanks Shooter... interesting read. Hopefully I'll get to finish it tonight.

I got to page 10, Rate of Response, where it says:

"There is no significant difference between the rate of response of different types silica gel during asorbtion or desorption."

I'll prob get the answer to this later when I finish the read but if the above statement is true how can the KLH not be as efficient? I'm going to guess that this is going to go to the make up of the density of the beads? Ahh hell, let me catch up with the rest of the article and maybe we can take it to PM if we're boring the masses.

Great stuff!
 
paragraph 3.2 is what i was referring to. I must have said the wrong thing. I didn't mean the response rate, but the amount of water that they can use. I said rate of response in reference to the buffereing capacity.

Sorry about the confusion.... I said response time, but read 3.2 and you will see what I am talking about.

Shane
 
Thanks Shooter... interesting read. Hopefully I'll get to finish it tonight.

I got to page 10, Rate of Response, where it says:

"There is no significant difference between the rate of response of different types silica gel during asorbtion or desorption."

I'll prob get the answer to this later when I finish the read but if the above statement is true how can the KLH not be as efficient? I'm going to guess that this is going to go to the make up of the density of the beads? Ahh hell, let me catch up with the rest of the article and maybe we can take it to PM if we're boring the masses.

Great stuff!

Till you get to the part of using a lithium chloride as a regulator. Hopefully, ours are using aluminum oxide instead.
 
paragraph 3.2 is what i was referring to. I must have said the wrong thing. I didn't mean the response rate, but the amount of water that they can use. I said rate of response in reference to the buffereing capacity.

Sorry about the confusion.... I said response time, but read 3.2 and you will see what I am talking about.

Shane

Again good stuff here. Thanks!

Has anyone been able to determine the "type" of silica gel that the KLH and beads are? Reading 3.2 points towards three specific "types" of Silica gel used for their testing. Are these just brand names used in the museum industry? I guess I'm trying to understand if and how the KLH silica gel is manufactured different than the Silica gel beads and if they are the same or different than the Silica Gel used for the article.

FWIW, I have both beads and KLH and have not been able to notice a discernable difference in thier working properties. I'm not saying that there is or isn't some minute difference in obsorbtion or desorption rates or capacity and hopefully we'll be able to understand that a little better with this discussion. I do believe that, for what we use them for, the KLH "works" in the same manner as the beads. I also believe other than the beads being already conditioned they offer no real discernable benifit over KLH for what we use them for. I'm really enjoying the "fine detail" in the why it works department but for most here I'm sure what matters is does it work.

Now if I can just figure out how to keep the cat out of my humidor..... :sign:
 
paragraph 3.2 is what i was referring to. I must have said the wrong thing. I didn't mean the response rate, but the amount of water that they can use. I said rate of response in reference to the buffereing capacity.

Sorry about the confusion.... I said response time, but read 3.2 and you will see what I am talking about.

Shane

Again good stuff here. Thanks!

Has anyone been able to determine the "type" of silica gel that the KLH and beads are? Reading 3.2 points towards three specific "types" of Silica gel used for their testing. Are these just brand names used in the museum industry? I guess I'm trying to understand if and how the KLH silica gel is manufactured different than the Silica gel beads and if they are the same or different than the Silica Gel used for the article.

FWIW, I have both beads and KLH and have not been able to notice a discernable difference in thier working properties. I'm not saying that there is or isn't some minute difference in obsorbtion or desorption rates or capacity and hopefully we'll be able to understand that a little better with this discussion. I do believe that, for what we use them for, the KLH "works" in the same manner as the beads. I also believe other than the beads being already conditioned they offer no real discernable benifit over KLH for what we use them for. I'm really enjoying the "fine detail" in the why it works department but for most here I'm sure what matters is does it work.

Now if I can just figure out how to keep the cat out of my humidor..... :sign:

The part that blew me away was that an OUNCE of the brand name beads in the pdf was equal to 700 square meters of surface area. Phenominal!
 
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