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On This Day, May 4, 1970

Devil Doc

Devil Doc

When Death smiles, Corpsmen smile back
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Messages
11,595
Location
New England
Tin soldiers and Nixon's comin'.
We're finally on our own.
This summer I hear the drummin'.
Four dead in Ohio.

Gotta get down to it.
Soldiers are gunning us down.
Should have been done long ago.
What if you knew her and
Found her dead on the ground?
How can you run when you know?

Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na.
Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na.
Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na.
Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na.

Gotta get down to it.
Soldiers are cutting us down.
Should have been done long ago.
What if you knew her and
Found her dead on the ground?
How can you run when you know?

Tin soldiers and Nixon's comin'.
We're finally on our own.
This summer I hear the drummin'.
Four dead in Ohio.
Four dead in Ohio.
Four dead in Ohio.
Four dead in Ohio.
Four dead in Ohio.
Four dead in Ohio.
Four dead in Ohio.
Four dead in Ohio.
Four dead in Ohio.
Four dead in Ohio.


Doc
 
I was 10 Years old but still remember seeing this on the news. Good old Kent State most remembered for This awful day and Jack Lambert's almamater.
 
Before I went on active duty with the Navy I was in the Ohio National Guard for three years. There were a couple of guys in the unit that were at Kent State that day, after hearing their side of the story I came away with a slightly different opinion than the one the media presented.

But then again what else is new.
 
I'd like to hear that story. Were they assaulted with deadly flowers, or perhaps naughty names. I've been called a baby killer and have had all manner of crap thrown at me, but whatever the provocation, it wouldn't have provoked me to use deadly force against a bunch of unarmed American kids, voicing their opinions, which is one of the reasons I served my country. Those weekend warriors caused me and others a whole lot of unnecessary aggravation.

Doc.
 
TubalCain said:
Before I went on active duty with the Navy I was in the Ohio National Guard for three years. There were a couple of guys in the unit that were at Kent State that day, after hearing their side of the story I came away with a slightly different opinion than the one the media presented.

But then again what else is new.
Click to expand...

Count me among those who would like to hear 'their side of the story.' At this point, I'm a little more than puzzled.

-Mark
 
The problem is that it doesn't matter if you believe "professional" protesters were the cause or if you think the Guardsmen planned to shoot into the crowd as they retreated up Blanket Hill. The problem was that the Guardsmen were not well trained and never were ordered to shoot. Having started my career with the M-14 which is close enough to the M-1 used at Kent State, I can say with an absolute certainty a well trained soldier with a rifle and attached bayonet can scare the bejesus out of a group of unarmed people.

The real story is how lax the entire Guard system was across the US at that time since it was being used by huge numbers of people to keep from being drafted (repeat after me...George W. Bush) and was susceptible to outside influence and not training to the same standard as their active duty counterparts.
 
You said it much nicer than I would have, Ray. At the time the National Guard was one step above draft dodger. Unless you knew someone, getting in the Guard was impossible. Keep in mind only 8 units of the National Guard served in Viet Nam. How many Units are there?

Doc.
 
At that time there were about 110 Brigades of about 4,000 in each so 400-450,000 people.
 
This is obviously a polarizing issue to many people so I will not add anything more after this reply. I was not there, at the time I was five years old and living in my hometown Chillicothe Ohio. I can remember Governor Rhodes and I can remember seeing news reports of Vietnam and of the happenings at Kent State University that however is where my first hand knowledge ends. I believe that everyone can agree that what happened was a tragedy and should never have escalated as it did.

When I was seventeen I joined the Ohio ARNG and went to basic training at Fort Leonard Wood MO, followed by AIT at Fort Gordon GA. after which I reported back to Co A 216th Combat Engineer Battalion, located in my hometown. That was my initial training, as to what the members received in the 70's I have no idea so I can't argue the point. I was under the impression that was the way it always was but I don't know. I enjoyed my time in the guard and met alot of people that I to this day have the utmost respect for.

The two gentlemen I spoke to about Kent State were at that time members of my unit and both were senior NCO's. I am not sure of the unit they were attached to in 1970, if my memory serves correctly they were assigned to an infantry company however I couldn't tell you which one and to be honest even if I knew what guard unit was at the University I couldn't be sure that was the one they were assigned too. I never got that deep into it but I have no reason to believe that either man knowingly lied to me just to make himself appear important to a little PFC such as I was. I never spoke to both men at the same time about Kent State however both told me almost the exact same story.

When they arrived a group of protesters had already burned a building and had several run in's with local law enforcement. They formed lines and attempted to get people to disperse. They were pelted several times with what the media referred to as rocks and bottles, however both men told me they were being hit with feces and urine in addition to rocks and bottles; plus they were also being hit with cans (remember this is 1970 so they cans of the day were not like the Al ones today) that had been cut into jagged points and filled with cement to aid in throwing. One of the men had a rather nasty looking scar on his neck which he claimed was caused by such a can, hardly what I would call flower petals. Based on both their comments I understood that they were faced by both college students and some hard core protesters who were there only to cause trouble and one could agree that they succeeded.

The following day May 4th they again formed lines and local officials told a crowd of protesters to dispress which was ignored and again pelted them with feces, rocks and bottles. Later that day they were told to fix bayonetts and to use tear gas to get the crowd to disperse. It is my understanding the tear gas had little effect with some canisters being thrown back towards them, and at some point a group of gaurdsmen were ordered to move across the green to disperse the crowd. Niether of the two men I know were part of the group who moved across the green and ultimatly fired into the crowd. Why did the group fire? They have no idea, and couldn't even begin to justify the act the only way that will ever happen is to find those men who did and to ask them.

History is written by the winners, in this case the winners were the anti war side so they have been very kind to the protesters recalling them as peaceful wouldn't hurt a fly types, showering the police and guardsman with nothing but goodwill and love, while the authorities were typical jack booted thugs who got off on hurting people. The problem is one building was destroyed by fire intentionally set and both police and guardsman were showered with missiles with the intent to hurt them. I have never been put into a situation where I was literaly hit with shit and urine, how would I react? I have no idea. I also can't say what my reaction to the guardsman would be like if I were a Vietnam veteran. I would think, though I may be wrong that the Mai Lai incident of 1969 would have had more effect on the military than the Kent State incident.

I went on active duty with the Navy after my time in the guard and stayed there for ten years until they decided (the goverment) that my service was no longer need due to force reductions. To anyone whom has worn the uniform past or present, I salute you and thank you for your service.
 
Excerpt from the second article second Kent State article.

Mr. KAHLER: That's always been one of the misconceptions. The Justice Department and the President's Commission on Student Unrest basically said that students didn't burn the building down. It was burned down by someone who knew how to burn building down.

At the time the building burned down, there were virtually no students at that site. The site was totally surrounded by campus security and local police authorities. And so there was really no reason to assume that the students burned the building down. But we have been blamed for it. It's one of the myths of the burning of the ROTC building.
 
TC- thanks for sharing that. The only more turbulent time in our nations history (internally) was the Civil War.

Cheers,

R
 
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