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Runblings of a conspiracy

gawntrail

New Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2004
Messages
871
Over on CW there is a thread discussing the internet tobacco debacle:

CW thread about internet tobacco purchases

And they linked an HP thread:

HP thread about the internet tobacco purchases

I'm fairly new to internet purchasing (especially cigars). And even though Cigars are not expressly mentioned, it is only a matter of time until someone's broad interpretation of 'tobacco products' sets the precidence (sp?) that includes cigars.

Some have brought up privacy issues, and others have brought up other things. What, in some of your opinions, can be done about this?

M. Gipson
 
psyktek said:
Dear Valued Customer,


As you are likely aware, Internet tobacco sales are facing increased
scrutiny from both federal and state agencies. Such sales are now also
facing increased scrutiny from the credit card companies. Due to recent
policy changes by the credit card companies regarding all Internet tobacco
product sales, we are currently unable to complete your transaction. Each
member of our team is working diligently to correct the problem and we
anticipate having this situation corrected in the very near future. We
apologize for any inconvenience this delay may cause you. As soon as we
are confident we can again fulfill your order without any unnecessary
delays, we will contact you. We have not and will not charge your credit
card until such a time that we are able to ship your order immediately. We
hope you can remain patient and will allow us to serve you now and in the
future.


Thank you,
MyCigarettes Team

Can cigar sales be far behind? :angry:
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Psyktek posted this in the lobby. Definitely the same thing.

M. Gipson
 
What can be done about it? Pretty much nothing. I work in DC in the public/government affairs space and the momentum behind this has been building for some time. There are several constituencies that are lined up in support of this, and very little credible or organized opposition. This is supported by convenience stores and brick and morter cigarette retailers that see Native American mail order and internet direct shippers stealing their cigarette business, the states that are seeing cigarette tax revenue erode, and a long list of anti-tobacco organizations like Tobacco Free Kids. The reason that nothing can be done is that it would take a serious, organized effort by enough groups with enough critical mass to oppose this. I just don't think they are out there.

There is a similar effort underway to accomplish the same thing with online liquor sales: http://www.pointclickdrink.com.

This is funded by WSWA (Wine & Spirits Wholesalers of America), aka distributors. Internet sales threaten to disintermediate them and they would rather cut off direct access between micro wineries and customers than lose their reason for being.
 
YelloCello said:
What can be done about it? Pretty much nothing. I work in DC in the public/government affairs space and the momentum behind this has been building for some time. There are several constituencies that are lined up in support of this, and very little credible or organized opposition. This is supported by convenience stores and brick and morter cigarette retailers that see Native American mail order and internet direct shippers stealing their cigarette business, the states that are seeing cigarette tax revenue erode, and a long list of anti-tobacco organizations like Tobacco Free Kids. The reason that nothing can be done is that it would take a serious, organized effort by enough groups with enough critical mass to oppose this. I just don't think they are out there.

There is a similar effort underway to accomplish the same thing with online liquor sales: http://www.pointclickdrink.com.

This is funded by WSWA (Wine & Spirits Wholesalers of America), aka distributors. Internet sales threaten to disintermediate them and they would rather cut off direct access between micro wineries and customers than lose their reason for being.
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Quoted from www.pointclickdrink.com:

"Too often, kids can buy beer, wine and liquor with a simple click of the mouse. From state capitals to the U.S. Supreme Court, there is an ongoing national debate that could mean the end to existing safeguards and putting alcohol within easier reach of your kids. Decisions are being made that will affect how alcohol is bought and sold in your local community. At risk is the system of checks and balances—like face-to-face ID checks—that protect against easy, unaccountable alcohol access.

We need your help today to protect our kids, communities and common sense."

Sounds like a parenting issue to me. Whether kids 'pimp' beer at the corner 7-11, obtain a fake ID to buy it at the counter themselves, or order on the 'net, it still sounds like a parent issue, not something for the gov't to step in and regulate. Yet another example of Gov't stepping in to relieve parents of their responsibilities.

What if the drink part of point-click-drink was changed. Access to adult items by minors has always been an issue. Denying access to the market based economy based on the fear for minors.........that is ridiculous. I'd be willing to bet that a state's enforcement of these bans is a violation of some Federal statutes. Not allowing choices sounds like state sponsored monopolizing, or racketeering. Just because it is the gov't does not make it right. I'm going to look into this.

And, it also sounds like another good reason for a National ID Card and or a nationally linked database for identification purposes only. Something that could piggyback some Illegal Immigration Reform or Homeland Security Legislation.

M. Gipson
 
and brick and morter cigarette retailers that see Native American mail

MORTAR :sign:

and there's supposed to be a space between "disinter" and "mediate" (two words, not one) ;)
 
Somehow, half way through the first sentence of this post...I had a strange feeling that CC would make an appearance.
 
Here's something:

From http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/antitrust.html:

"antitrust: an overview
Trusts and monopolies are concentrations of wealth in the hands of a few. Such conglomerations of economic resources are thought to be injurious to the public and individuals because such trusts minimize, if not obliterate normal marketplace competition, and yield undesirable price controls. These, in turn, cause markets to stagnate and sap individual initiative.

To prevent trusts from creating restraints on trade or commerce and reducing competition, Congress passed the Sherman Antitrust Act in 1890. The Sherman Act was designed to maintain economic liberty, and to eliminate restraints on trade and competition. The Sherman Act is the main source of Antitrust law.

The Sherman Act is a Federal statute and as such has a scope limited by Constitutional constraints on the Federal government. The commerce clause, however, allows for a very wide interpretation and application of this act. The Act applies to all transactions and business involved in interstate commerce. If the activities are local, the act applies to transactions affecting interstate commerce. The latter phrase has been interpretted to allow broad application of the Sherman Act.

Most if not all states have comparable statutes prohibiting monopolistic conduct, price fixing agreements, and other acts in restraint of trade having strictly local impact."

If the state gov'ts force consumers to purchase from in-state businesses aren't they violating the Sherman Antitrust Act by retarding economic liberty and imposing restraints on trade and competition?

Is the argument of rightful tax collection an end run around the Sherman Antitrust Act?

Is forcing the consumer to purchase only from in-state businesses under the threat of penalty also a violation of the RICO statutes?

quoted from RICO: (source -> http://www.ricoact.com/ricoact/nutshell.asp#1962d <-)

"Extortion

What laypeople call extortion, lawyers call a violation of the Hobbs Act. The Hobbs Act states:

Whoever in anyway or degree obstructs, delays, or affects commerce or the movement of any article or commodity in commerce, by robbery or extortion or attempts or conspires so to do, or commits or threatens physical violence to any person or property in furtherance of a plan or purpose to do anything in violation of this section shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

As used in this section:

(1) The term "robbery" means the unlawful taking or obtaining of personal property from the person or in the presence of another, against his will, by means of actual or threatened force, or violence, or fear of injury, immediate or future, to his person or property, or property in his custody or possession, or the person or property of a relative or member of his family or of anyone in his company at the time of the taking or obtaining.

(2) The term "extortion" means the obtaining of property from another, with his consent, induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence, or fear, or under color of official right.

(3) The term "commerce" means commerce within the District of Columbia, or any Territory or Possession of the United States, all commerce between any point in a State, Territory, Possession, or the District of Columbia and any point outside thereof, all commerce between points within the same State through any place outside such State and all commerce over which the United States has jurisdiction.

Extortion vs. Legitimate Exercise of Government Power

Extortion "under color of official right" should not be confused with the legitimate exercise of government power. Governmental power, by its nature, is legalized extortion, e.g.,: unless you abide by the law, you'll go to jail; unless you buy car insurance, your license will be revoked; unless you pay taxes, you'll go to jail and be fined; unless you register your gun, your gun will be confiscated. But for the government's authority to jail people and fine people and confiscate their property, how many of us would abide by the law? If we all naturally treated each other in a decent manner, there would be no need for government. From the first day that man emerged from the wilderness, however, most political philosophers and most of our experiences have taught us that if left to our own devices, people will rob from each other, abuse each other, and kill each other. Thus, pursuant to the basic social contract upon which all governments are based, people have consented to the government's use of extortion to keep all of us in line and to make sure that we all abide by the prevailing standards of decency.

The government's power to extort proper behavior from each of us is limited only by "due process," i.e., the government can't send someone to jail unless they first receive a fair trial, a law cannot be enforced unless it is properly approved by our elected officials and thereafter monitored by our courts, etc. A citizen cannot complain that he or she is being extorted by their government if the government is simply enforcing a law that complies with society's sense of due process. It is difficult to imagine when an official act of government could constitute extortion. When considering official government action, the appropriateness of the government's action is measured by the Constitution -- not by the criminal law of extortion. If the government does not have the power to enforce a law against a citizen (i.e., if the government does not have the power to extort certain behavior from a citizen), the law is unconstitutional - not extortionistic."

And in light of the last sentence, if not extortion, then unconstitutional?

I may not be able to coherently argue the point, but, it most certainly appears to me that there is something wrong with an entity forcing consumers to purchase goods from a source or sources for the purpose of solely benefitting said entity. I'm not a lawyer, but this sounds like it is flirting with the line. Maybe someone with a law degree could connect the dots.

M. Gipson
 
coventrycat86 said:
and brick and morter cigarette retailers that see Native American mail

MORTAR :sign:

and there's supposed to be a space between "disinter" and "mediate" (two words, not one) ;)
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If you had been on the Titanic as it was going down you probably would have been running around trying to straighten all the crooked pictures on the walls. :laugh:
 
gawntrail said:
Sounds like a parenting issue to me. Whether kids 'pimp' beer at the corner 7-11, obtain a fake ID to buy it at the counter themselves, or order on the 'net, it still sounds like a parent issue, not something for the gov't to step in and regulate. Yet another example of Gov't stepping in to relieve parents of their responsibilities.

What if the drink part of point-click-drink was changed. Access to adult items by minors has always been an issue. Denying access to the market based economy based on the fear for minors.........that is ridiculous. I'd be willing to bet that a state's enforcement of these bans is a violation of some Federal statutes. Not allowing choices sounds like state sponsored monopolizing, or racketeering. Just because it is the gov't does not make it right. I'm going to look into this.

Of course it is a parenting issue. But how many members of the public care about protecting wine and spirits wholesalers? Zippo. They needed to find an angle to give them some traction in the public mind to exert pressure on congress.

This issue points up a conflict between the 18th Amendment (which regulates the interstate transportation of alcohol) and the Commerce Clause (which regulates interstate commerce). There is a case before the Supreme Court that bears on which of these take precedence.
 
Im surprised bigger companies like altadis and the like have not jumped in on this.I think thats spelled correctly.
 
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