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Salty/mineral tastes

antaean

Did this happen to you?
Joined
Mar 7, 2006
Messages
269
I have noticed that an attribute of some ISOMs seems to be the presentation of a salty taste just prior to encountering strong nicotine effects while smoking the cigar. Usually when this happens, the salty taste is not present for the first inch or two and then appears near the start of the second third. I have found this, particularly with Bolivar, but also several less-full flavored marques. Typically these have been about 8 months to 18 months from box date, so they are not well-aged.

I have read that nicotine in tobacco is in the form of a chemical "salt" and could be where the salty (mineral?) taste comes from. My own experiences seem to show less nicotine effects with progressively greater aging and I have not had a similar salty taste in cigars with 3 to 4 years on them. Many reviewers suggest that nicotine decreases dramatically with aging, but I am unclear where the "salt" might dissipate.

Would appreciate hearing other thoughts about this.

Cheers,
antaean
 
Well, in the anearobic processes and aerobic reactions involved with aging tobacco....
ah, what do I know....I'll wait for Wilkey.

PS-I have noticed the same. The salty taste does seem to go away with age. Interestingly, some very well aged cigars I have smoked did have a similar (though not the same) quality to them.
 
Don't eat Sardines before you smoke :sign:

Brian
 
WTF,

I couldn't make sense of what was said in those links, G1. Very confusing.

I can't say that I've recognized the salty taste. I've purposely smoked cigars known to exhibit a salty character and I have not been able to zero in on it.

Wilkey
 
I wish there was more Lithium in the ISOM's. :laugh:

Maybe the salty taste is from the sediments of the water or solutions you are using in your humi
 
WTF,

I couldn't make sense of what was said in those links, G1. Very confusing.

I can't say that I've recognized the salty taste. I've purposely smoked cigars known to exhibit a salty character and I have not been able to zero in on it.

Wilkey



ok - how's this...

Potassium Nitrate leechs into the plant. To much and it's salty!!

It's been shown in other plants - ie veggies - that to much PN in the soil or water source will increase the salt content.



Is that better?











I wish there was more Lithium in the ISOM's. :laugh:
Maybe the salty taste is from the sediments of the water or solutions you are using in your humi



LMAO - lithium!! :thumbs:
 
could've been that olive from his martini got lodged in his throat :p
 
This happened to me. My one and only box of ISOM's were gifted to me ny my son on a trip he made to New Zealand. He had the box about a month before he gave it to me. He is not aware of cigar storage and kept them in a suitcase. When he gave me the sealed box, I put it my humidor for about a month before I opened the box. The whole box had a salty taste. I wonder if it has to do with a drying out and rehumidifying. Just thought I would mention this and it might help in getting your answer.
 
Ok, perhaps I need to offer some clarifications :rolleyes:

The salty taste I am referring to arises several minutes before an obvious nicotine effect, meaning the tingly lips feeling, elevated heart rate, etc. This has usually happened when maybe a third of the cigar has already been smoked. This taste/flavor is not over-powering and is not unpleasant at all. In fact, I have thought it to be an interesting additional taste.

I am sure that this is totally unrelated to my storage conditions (65%RH and 65-68F) and humidification (65% Heartfelt beads, distilled water).

Note that I do not think this has anything to do with smokes which are noted to have a slightly salty taste. I will check some references but I think MRN referred to "maleates" or "citrates" of nicotine. I am not a chemist so my recollection of his actual terms may be mistaken.

I have heard of the nitrates/nitrites stuff before, but I think that would be throughout(?) a particular smoke rather than my experiences of the salty taste coming after a couple of inches of smoking and followed shortly thereafter with a nicotine hit.

antaean
 
Interesting article from another sight, but I don't see anything on what causes saltiness.


Cigarticle: What Do Your Taste Buds Taste?
October 16, 2006

Each cigar smoker possesses unique senses of smell and taste, and has their own way of expressing fragrance and flavor. In this column, Cigar Weekly's contributing editor Doug Kuebler (jazznut) explores the relationship between sensory perception and cigars.

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ASSOCIATION

It's amazing what some people claim to taste in cigars. Yet these individuals may actually be onto something.
One afternoon, a friend and I were talking about cigars. It dawned on me that our analyses mirrored how we described food and drink. And this seemed entirely natural.

For others, a cigar is just tobacco. "I mean, you're smoking the darn thing, not eating it," they insist. When it comes to sensory matters, though, I'm not so sure.

A certain logic underlies equating characteristics of cured tobacco with those of food and drink - all draw from climate, soil and water. In some cases, we can add fermentation and ageing to environmental factors.

How can a cigar smell or taste of coffee, cream, cardamon or compost? It can't - exactly. However, a tobacco blend may evoke such images with eery similarity. Clearly, an associative process is at work here. But there's more to it than that.

CIGAR MEETS MOUTH
As a substance enters the mouth, it penetrates papillae located on the upper surface of the tongue, stimulating the taste buds. The substance has be liquified, and cigar smoke must undergo condensation and mixing with saliva.

The human sense of taste recognizes four characteristics - sweetness, saltiness, sourness and bitterness. Alkaline and metallic are sometimes also included. Each taste bud is tuned to react to one of these.

Category-specific taste buds occupy different regions of the tongue. Sweetness and saltiness are predominantly sensed on the tip and front portion, sourness mostly along the edges and bitterness at the rear.

Substances exhibiting multiple characteristics are screened in stages. For example, bittersweet substances are tasted as first sweet and then bitter.

Sight, touch and smell are also important to flavor perception. Visual stimulation often induces subjective taste reactions. And touch involves oral recognition of texture. Foremost is the sense of smell, as olfactory nerve fibers exert tremendous influence upon taste perception. Humans can detect over thirty primary aromas.

Clearly, appreciation of a cigar relies more on olfactory sensation than the taste buds. Nonetheless, gaseous transmutation to liquid does occur. And these dissolved elements enhance overall sensation.

THE ROOTS OF AROMA AND FLAVOR IN CIGAR TOBACCO

Visual criteria, such as differences in wrapper hue, often affect the sense of taste.
Cigars are simply rolled leaves of Nicotiana tabacum. Nevertheless, they contain many compounds, which often translate into specific aromas and flavors.

Tobacco contains numerous substances prior to harvesting, including alkaloids, amino/organic acids, chlorophyll, proteins, starches, sugars and vitamins.

Nicotine in freshly harvested tobacco is both acrid and physiologically active, its concentration correlating to nitrogen levels in the soil. However, fermentation and ageing diminish nicotine's bitterness and physiologic potency.

Other substances also exhibit noticeable traits - particularly ammonia. Generated through fermentation, ammonia is potentially very pungent. Still, it can appear much less so when encountered in minute quantities, and may aid in emitting animal-like aromas such as leather and musk.

Combustion liberates more compounds, with pyrines and pyrazines, both offshoots of nicotine, being particularly odorous. Benzopyrene, also found in coal tar, is another toxic, aromatic component.

Although minerals and metals can affect combustion and ash hue, any connection between such elements and aromas and flavors remains largely speculative. This said, correlation of concentrations of manganese with tobacco quality has been observed.

Starches and sugars comprise less understood constituents of tobacco, despite documented links between plant sugars and sweet as well as roasted odors.

Acids, sour and periodically harsh, play a noteworthy role in younger cigars. Tannic acids are easily perceived and are effective preservatives. Saccharic acids, resulting from oxidation of plant sugars, act more subtly. Other less obvious, nonvolatile, organic acids may influence flavor, too. Analysis of acid profiles of leaves in cigars can also point to where the tobacco came from.

Conversion of chlorophyll into carotenoids highlights a most fascinating connection between compounds in tobacco and associated aromatic properties. Formed primarily from harvesting through curing and fermentation, carotenoids include hydrocarbons called carotenes and their oxygenated offspring, xanthophylls.

Four carotenoids stand out. Beta-ionone is related to aromas of wood, violets and fruit, as well as a wood and raspberry mélange. Alpha-ionone exudes a more pronounced odor, tending toward woody-balsamic, violet and raspberry. Both are found in the essential oils of many plants. Beta-damascone emits apple-citrus, tea-like and minty notes, while beta-damascenone gives off fruity, floral with apple, plum to raisin, tea, rose and - surprise! - tobacco scents. Overall, these characteristics range from high-toned and astringent to deeper and sweeter.

Lutein, one of the xanthophylls, also affects the bouquet of tobacco. Dihydro-beta-ionol, the most important aromatic component in lutein, contributes floral and musky nuances.

Ethyl cyclotene is present in both tobacco and tobacco smoke, and can infuse cigars with caramel-maple overtones.

Then there is the matter of moisture. Low humidity faciliates complete combustion and lessens emission of noxious substances, though also destroying essential oils and overall flavor balance. Crispness may be good for a breakfast cereal or crackers, but you wouldn't want it in a fine cigar. At the other extreme, overly moist cigars burn more slowly, resulting in greater proportions of partially combusted matter as well as higher levels of tar and bitterness.

Finally, there is oxygenation to consider. It can be either beneficial or not. Some oxygenation is necessary for fermentation, decreasing levels of ammonia, softening tannins, permitting interaction of compounds and for development of pleasurable scents and tastes. Too quick a pace of oxygenation risks evaporation of essential oils, sacrifice of strength and eventual loss of complexity.

SMOKING AND SMELLING
Does regular exposure to tobacco smoke lessen one's ability to smell?

A study of perfume retail outlet workers is of interest. Why? Both cigar smoke and perfume emit ammoniated compounds. The study found no significant correlation between years of work and general olfactory function, and indicated that exposure to various specific aromas in fact led to increased ability to discriminate between odors.

This all sounds wonderful. Alas, other studies show tobacco smoke causes a decrease in the length of the olfactory epithelium and degradation of its regenerative capacity. This points to potentially diminished olfactory ability in those who smoke tobacco too frequently.

MAKING SENSE OF A CIGAR

Variety is indeed the spice of life.
Strength and fullness of body are not necessarily one and the same. Even lighter-bodied cigars may display surprising underlying strength owing to their nicotine content. More often than not, though, strength and fullness occur in tandem.

The fragrance of cigars has traditionally been divided into six subjective categories, these being plant, wood, spice, animal, sweet/roasted and earth.

Plant odors are usually more pronounced in milder tobaccos, and tend to be progressively masked by other odors as blend strengths increase. They also depend on proper degree of humidity. Plant scents encompass aromatic properties of root vegetation, grasses and flowers.

Wood scents are pretty much self-explanatory, though they can cross over to include resins and saps.

Spice scents range from bakery condiments through to the strong and peppery. Fuller bodied cigars often display the powerful piquancy of the latter.

Animal scents may appear to be as gentle as fine leather or as pungent as a wild mammal.

Sweet and/or roasted scents span from those of dairy products through to more heavily toasted or even tar-like notes. They comprise a very broad spectrum.

Earth scents can convey many variations of soil composition as well as evoking the odor of manure.

Still and all, this is far from the end of the story. For how such nuances mingle while melding with the primary tobacco characteristics is key to how a cigar will smell and taste. With age, these facets further integrate, creating more complex, ethereal and difficult to describe notions.

I think it's time to stop reading and take a peak inside the humidor. By the way, how do they get the Caramilk inside those Hoyo de Monterrey Double Coronas?

REFERENCES
Aulbach, P.L.; Black, R.R.; Chakraborty, B.B.; Diesing, A.C.; Gonterman, R.A.; Johnson, R.R.; Scholten, D.L.
Root Technology: A Handbook for Leaf Blenders and Product Developers, Brown & Williamson Tobacco Corporation, February 2001
http://new.globalink.org/tobacco/docs/misc...whandbook.shtml
Aureli, G.; Lionetti, G.; Nunziata, A.
Evaluation of Bacterial Strains Involved in Toscano Cigars Fermentation, Ente Tabacchi Italiani, Research department, Rome, Italy, from Abstracts of Presentations Made at the 2001 Coresta Joint Meeting of the Smoke and Technology Study Groups, Xian, China
Bazemore, Russell; Harrison, Charles; Greenberg, Michael
Identification of Components Responsible for the Odor of Cigar Smoker's Breath, Wm. Wrigley Jr. Co., Copyright 2005 American Chemical Society, also published in the Journal of Agricultural & Food Chemistry 2006
Belaubre, Gilbert
The Phases of Tasting and Their Vocabulary, an excerpt from: Cigar: From Initiation to Mastery www.credo.fr/uk/monde_credo_world/degustation_uk.htm
De Roton, C.; San, L.H.; Verrier, J.L.; Vidal, B.
Study of factors Influencing the Concentration of Tobacco-Specific Nitrosamines (TSNA) in Air-Cured Tobaccos, Altadis, Institute du Tabac, 24100 Bergerac, France, from Abstracts of Presentations Made at the 2000 Coresta Congress - Agronomy and Phytopathology, Lisbon, Portugal
Miller, Benjamin F., M.D.; Keane, Claire Brackman, R.N., B.S., M.Ed.
Encyclopedia and Dictionary of Medicine, Nursing, and Allied Health - 3rd Edition, W.B. Saunders Co., Toronto, Ontario, Canada 1983
Grieve, Maud, F.R.H.S.
A Modern Herbal: Tobacco, Dover Publications, N.Y., U.S.A. 1971
Hakkinen, S.T.; Rischer, H.; Laakso, I.; Maaheimo, H.; Seppanen-Laakso, T.; Oksman-Caldentey, K.M.
Anatalline and other methyl jasmonate-inducible nicotine alkaloids from Nicotiana tabacum cv. BY-2 cell cultures, VTT Biotechnology, Espoo, Finland, from Planta Medica, October 2004
Hoffman, Dietrich; Hoffman, Ilse
Chemistry and Toxicology: Smoking and Tobacco Monograph No.9, National Cancer Institute http://cancercontrol.cancer.gov/tcrb/monographs/9/m9_3.PDF
Hummel, T.; Guel, H. & Delauk, W.
Olfactory Sensitivity of Subjects Working in Odorous Environments Chemical Senses, Vol.29 No.6, Oxford University Press 2004
Leffingwell, John C., Ph.D.
Carotenoids as Flavor & Fragrance Precursors: A Review by John C. Leffingwell, Copyright 1999-2001 Leffingwell & Associates www.leffingwell.com/caroten.htm
Tobacco: A Review by John C. Leffingwell, Copyright 1999-2001 Leffingwell & Associates www.leffingwell.com/tob.htm
Morsy, M.A.; Khaled, M.M.
Direct Electron Paramagnetic Resonance Studies of Tobacco: I. Maganese (II) as a Marker, Journal of Agricultural & Food Chemistry, Vol.49, 2001
Nee, Min Ron
An Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Post-Revolution Cigars - 1st Edition, Interpro Business Corporation, Hong Kong, January 2003
Ng, L.K.; Hupe, M.; Vanier, M.; Moccia, D.
Characterization of cigar tobaccos by gas chromatographic/mass spectrometric analysis of nonvolatile organic acids: application to the authentication of Cuban cigars, Laboratory and Scientific Services Directorate, Canada Customs and Revenue Agency, published in the Journal of Agricultural & Food Chemistry, March 2001
Roberts, Shauna S.
Secrets of Cuban Cigars Revealed, information sourced from research performed by Gerald DeMenna and colleagues for BUCK Scientific, Piscataway, N.J., U.S.A. www.chemistry.org/portal/a/c/s/1/acsdisplay.html
Rodriguez-Bustamante, E.; Maldonaldo-Robledo, G.; Ortiz, M.A.; Diaz-Avalos, C.; Sanchez, S.
Bioconversion of lutein using a microbial mixture - maximizing the production of tobacco aroma compounds by manipulation of culture medium, Departamento Biologia Molecular y Biotecnologia del Instituto de Investigaciones Biomedicas, Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico, published in the Journal of Applied Microbiology and Biotechnology, August 2005
Stedman's Medical Dictionary - 22nd Edition, The Williams & Wilkins Co.,
Baltimore, U.S.A. 1972
Vent, J.; Bartels, S.; Haynatzki, G.; Gentry-Nielsen, M.J.; Leopold, D.A. & Halworth, R.
The impact of ethanol and tobacco smoke on intranasal epithelium in the rat, American Journal of Rhinology, July-August 2003
Xi, X.Y.; Li, C.J.; Zhang, F.S.
Nitrogen supply after removing the shoot apex increases the nicotine concentration and nitrogen content of tobacco plants, The Key Laboratory of Plant Nutrition, China Agricultural University, Beijing, China, published in the Annals of Botany, October 2005

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Doug Kuebler (Jazznut) is an inveterate aficionado and collector of wines and whiskies from around the world. Doug has organized wine and food seminars, written extensively on wines and liquors, and also gained something of a reputation for his detailed analyses of cigars. This article is an abridged version of a series of posts penned by Doug between September 2005 and February 2006, and viewable in its entirety in the Cigar Reviews Forum of Cigar Weekly.
 
Wow! It looks like Mr. Doug Kuebler could give our Wilkey a run for the money lol
 
I am not in his class. That much is clear. I'm strictly an amateur and merely an "average" taster. :p

I do, however, consider myself strong in two respects. First, having spent my first career in the chemical sciences, I have an insider's understanding of the nuts and bolts regarding the molecules. Second, since I can only taste about on par with the average cigar smoker, my reviews tend to be more accessible in terms of the sensory experience. At least I think so. ;)

There is no doubt I've learned some things from his writings.

Wilkey
 
I think it's his own unique physiological reaction to an imminent nicotine overdose.

Doc.
 
I think it's his own unique physiological reaction to an imminent nicotine overdose.

Doc.

Doc,

I certainly cannot rule this out. However, I don't always get this when I am smoking, just with a few boxes.

I had a 13 month old Bolivar coronas extra and a 8 month old Bolivar corona that had a salty flavored prelude to a nicotine kick. Drank water with both and were smoked about 2 months apart.

antaean
 
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