Tech Notes 1 - Characterization of Cuban Cigar Tobaccos
- Thread starter Ginseng
- Start date
Good read Wilkey! Very interesting they got it to 98% accuracy. Having worked in an organics lab using a GC mass spec., it appears to be a reliable method. Every compound that is extracted with show as a peak, say malaic acid at x cm. The height and width of the peak (area) is proportional to the amount and type of compound present. This way, each cigar will have a "signiture", and if i buy in Cuba it "should" have a similar signiture of peaks to one from Habanos SA. The variations will be between harvests, maunufactures, year of production, plus a ton of other variables.
Besides organic acids, there must also be trace elements (copper, manganese etc..) only dectectable by flame ionization, albiet less accurate, but more unique to the soil it was grown in. This is just a guess.
Besides organic acids, there must also be trace elements (copper, manganese etc..) only dectectable by flame ionization, albiet less accurate, but more unique to the soil it was grown in. This is just a guess.
Infinity
Infinity - *Unbounded space, time, or quantity*
Great read.
So, a cigar is not just a cigar!
As usual your posts take us to a new level - well done Wilkey!
Brian
So, a cigar is not just a cigar!
As usual your posts take us to a new level - well done Wilkey!
Brian
Right on, Sun. Further, one would expect the metals uptake to be strongly related to the growing environment. IF this is the case, flame might be a good companion test.
Wilkey
vudu9
New Member
"I cannot reproduce the PCA chart without permission but it was very clear that Cuban and non-Cuban filler tobaccos were clearly and distinctly separate groupings...."
I have a problem with this passage as the PCA chart is in fact the basis of this entire article. It's like saying that I've seen a herd of Unicorns but can't disclose their location. The French use a word that can sum this whole article up. It's called Terroir.
A " terroir " is a group of vineyards (or even vines) from the same region, belonging to a specific appellation, and sharing the same type of soil, weather conditions, grapes and wine making savoir-faire, which contribute to give its specific personality to the wine.
Now, just substitute the word vinyards with tobacco fields and wine/grapes with cigars and there you have it!
I have a problem with this passage as the PCA chart is in fact the basis of this entire article. It's like saying that I've seen a herd of Unicorns but can't disclose their location. The French use a word that can sum this whole article up. It's called Terroir.
A " terroir " is a group of vineyards (or even vines) from the same region, belonging to a specific appellation, and sharing the same type of soil, weather conditions, grapes and wine making savoir-faire, which contribute to give its specific personality to the wine.
Now, just substitute the word vinyards with tobacco fields and wine/grapes with cigars and there you have it!
"I cannot reproduce the PCA chart without permission but it was very clear that Cuban and non-Cuban filler tobaccos were clearly and distinctly separate groupings...."
I have a problem with this passage as the PCA chart is in fact the basis of this entire article. It's like saying that I've seen a herd of Unicorns but can't disclose their location. The French use a word that can sum this whole article up. It's called Terroir.
A " terroir " is a group of vineyards (or even vines) from the same region, belonging to a specific appellation, and sharing the same type of soil, weather conditions, grapes and wine making savoir-faire, which contribute to give its specific personality to the wine.
Now, just substitute the word vinyards with tobacco fields and wine/grapes with cigars and there you have it!
I'm willing to report on, paraphrase and even quote from a publication but I have no desire to flout the terms for my fair use of these documents. I value my access to these libraries and will comply with their requirements.
That said, I have considered sharing some of my analysis with the authors to see if they would grant permission to reproduce.
Terroir is a useful and descriptive grouping term but lacks scientific specificity. It's pretty but of little use in an analysis of this type.
Wilkey
VotTak
Member
Thanks for the nice piece of info. Amazing.
Besides, if that Cuban seed tabaco is being grown in very similar conditions... how will that affect tests?
What if Cuban seed tabaco is being grown in artificial conditions which are simulating Cuban climate, layers of soil, irrigation, sun light(and absence of one due to clowd weather which is usual for Cuban valeys on the west side of the island, etc)?
Anyway... interesting.
Thanks again
Besides, if that Cuban seed tabaco is being grown in very similar conditions... how will that affect tests?
What if Cuban seed tabaco is being grown in artificial conditions which are simulating Cuban climate, layers of soil, irrigation, sun light(and absence of one due to clowd weather which is usual for Cuban valeys on the west side of the island, etc)?
Anyway... interesting.
Thanks again
VotTak
Member
Well... sort of. This is in case we are talking about "similar" or "very close" growing conditions.
BTW have you ever tried anything from them? Just curious...
BTW have you ever tried anything from them? Just curious...
VotTak
Member
they are selling them in fivers, so someone probably host it...
Next
Agree... You are 100% right here.
My point was regarding analysis which started this topic. their point is to sell cigars. 
Roy R. Frush
Karaté?
Nice work, Wilkey!
Strayvector
Like what you smoke, smoke what you like
The research didn't take into account the chemical makeup of the sweat of the virgin thighs that Cubans are rolled on vs. the sweat of non-virgins for NCs. This is why they found no discernible difference in the wrappers. Next time, make sure the research is more thorough before you present it to us.
Seriously though, good read. Thanks.
Seriously though, good read. Thanks.
Desert Rat
New Member
Hello Wilkey!
Your first article was very interesting. Here are a couple of thoughts that came to me after my first post:
The idea of reproducing the test "in our kitchens" made me chuckle. Then I began thinking to my college days and some research I had done with a GC/MS. A quick internet search yielded this:
Protocol for tobacco GC analysis-including elution column used. The results do indeed show a “fingerprint” for solanone and nicotine.
http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/Graphics/Supel...s/4700/4629.pdf
This protocol is extremely simple and with access to a university lab such as I had one summer, reproducing some of the results of the article you published, well within the realm of possibility. Perhaps one of our members is a kooky professor or a nutty grad student with access to a GC/MS.
Another quick search yielded this article, backing up the science behind the Cuban experiment:
Isolation of tobacco flavor compounds (de-nicotinized)
Includes solanone GC retention times and peak areas in tobacco extractions analyzed:
http://tobaccodocuments.org/ahf/501003209-...e=1&end_page=98
I am a little confused regarding the “genetic” fingerprint idea. Many cigar makers claim “Cuban seed” tobacco including filler, including the Tobacos de la Cordillera.
I believe I have read that some of the biggie, old family cigar makers fled Cuba with precious Cuban tobacco seeds after the revolution. These would include filler, binder, and wrapper. Did the article address the idea of transplanted Cuban seeds confusing the analysis?
Last point: You forgot to state that solanone is a degradation product of tobacco aging. It took a little searching and reading to follow the idea that fermented tobacco would contain more solanone than non-fermented tobacco (the second fingerprint compound).
Kudos again.
Your first article was very interesting. Here are a couple of thoughts that came to me after my first post:
The idea of reproducing the test "in our kitchens" made me chuckle. Then I began thinking to my college days and some research I had done with a GC/MS. A quick internet search yielded this:
Protocol for tobacco GC analysis-including elution column used. The results do indeed show a “fingerprint” for solanone and nicotine.
http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/Graphics/Supel...s/4700/4629.pdf
This protocol is extremely simple and with access to a university lab such as I had one summer, reproducing some of the results of the article you published, well within the realm of possibility. Perhaps one of our members is a kooky professor or a nutty grad student with access to a GC/MS.
Another quick search yielded this article, backing up the science behind the Cuban experiment:
Isolation of tobacco flavor compounds (de-nicotinized)
Includes solanone GC retention times and peak areas in tobacco extractions analyzed:
http://tobaccodocuments.org/ahf/501003209-...e=1&end_page=98
I am a little confused regarding the “genetic” fingerprint idea. Many cigar makers claim “Cuban seed” tobacco including filler, including the Tobacos de la Cordillera.
I believe I have read that some of the biggie, old family cigar makers fled Cuba with precious Cuban tobacco seeds after the revolution. These would include filler, binder, and wrapper. Did the article address the idea of transplanted Cuban seeds confusing the analysis?
Last point: You forgot to state that solanone is a degradation product of tobacco aging. It took a little searching and reading to follow the idea that fermented tobacco would contain more solanone than non-fermented tobacco (the second fingerprint compound).
Kudos again.
AVB
Jesus of Cool, I'm bad, I'm nationwide
I have to question results of the data since it seems only to apply to a specific year. If they tested cigars spread out over a decade then this would show a consistant fingerprint that would cover a wider climate and soil conditions.
Cigars and cigarettes as image makers would be my next choice of subject.
Cigars and cigarettes as image makers would be my next choice of subject.
Desert Rat,
Thanks for your comments and questions. Let see if I can respond constructively without making things more confused.
The protocol: I omitted quite a few details of the protocol. There was a critical preparation step involving strong ion exchange but that would not have been useful to discuss. Their objective was to come up with a quick prep and test combo and it seems they did that. Still, not quite in the realm of kitchen work though.
Genetic basis: The article did not acknowledge the possibility of the common ancestral background of the various tobaccos. Specifically, they did not comment on how common ancestry might affect their test. There appears to be no consensus regarding the merit of "Cuban-seed" ancestry. To my knowledge, no one has tried to carry out any correlations of tobacco seed ancestry with cigar characteristics even in a cursory manner.
Some opine that the same seed can result in a multitude of end product tobacco types depending primarily on terroir and processing. Others maintain that the genotype of the tobacco plays a non-trivial role in defining the character of the end product. In a sense, it is the same old "nature versus nurture" argument that comes up in research on human development. In the human development literature, the consensus opinion is that of a complex and interaction relationship between nature and nurture factors with each exerting some common influence as well as some effects unique to only one domain.
I have not read the fermentation chemistry papers in depth yet and so I missed the point on solanone entirely. Thanks for clarifying.
AVB,
You bring up a good point. If I may paraphrase:
Collecting data over several years, variations in climate, growing conditions, and processing conditions would allow one to gain a more accurate picture each of these variables. In so doing, confidence would be higher in this more robust fingerprint. Indeed. It is a question of both statistical power and dedication to teasing out this knowledge.
Based on what people have said they'd like to hear about next, the next article in this series will be about the relationship between premium cigar pricing, quality, and ratings. It probably sounds as dry as it does apparent, however, I guarantee that you'll be fascinated as I was reading this 21-page article.
Wilkey
Thanks for your comments and questions. Let see if I can respond constructively without making things more confused.
The protocol: I omitted quite a few details of the protocol. There was a critical preparation step involving strong ion exchange but that would not have been useful to discuss. Their objective was to come up with a quick prep and test combo and it seems they did that. Still, not quite in the realm of kitchen work though.
Genetic basis: The article did not acknowledge the possibility of the common ancestral background of the various tobaccos. Specifically, they did not comment on how common ancestry might affect their test. There appears to be no consensus regarding the merit of "Cuban-seed" ancestry. To my knowledge, no one has tried to carry out any correlations of tobacco seed ancestry with cigar characteristics even in a cursory manner.
Some opine that the same seed can result in a multitude of end product tobacco types depending primarily on terroir and processing. Others maintain that the genotype of the tobacco plays a non-trivial role in defining the character of the end product. In a sense, it is the same old "nature versus nurture" argument that comes up in research on human development. In the human development literature, the consensus opinion is that of a complex and interaction relationship between nature and nurture factors with each exerting some common influence as well as some effects unique to only one domain.
I have not read the fermentation chemistry papers in depth yet and so I missed the point on solanone entirely. Thanks for clarifying.
AVB,
You bring up a good point. If I may paraphrase:
Collecting data over several years, variations in climate, growing conditions, and processing conditions would allow one to gain a more accurate picture each of these variables. In so doing, confidence would be higher in this more robust fingerprint. Indeed. It is a question of both statistical power and dedication to teasing out this knowledge.
Based on what people have said they'd like to hear about next, the next article in this series will be about the relationship between premium cigar pricing, quality, and ratings. It probably sounds as dry as it does apparent, however, I guarantee that you'll be fascinated as I was reading this 21-page article.
Wilkey
Zeebra
Daddy still loves Padrón!
Wilkey, you know I love you, and you know I respect you, but if you post a 21 page article on here, I'm gonna have to kill you.