Young, Sick, Aged

[Maximum]

I generally have smoked my cigars with 18 months to 5 years of age on them. This practice was derived from an early experience of attempting to smoke a 6 month old Punch Punch which left me with a taste like something I would imagine my cocker had left in freshly mowed grass. I was visiting an inexperienced friend who had some petites in his humidor that he had just purchased and did not keep the box. I assume these were quite young. These had a super sweet caramel taste. So, generally, when does young become sickly?? I would like to try some more young smokes but would like to avoid the "sick" taste and the waste of what would be a good smoke down the line.

 

[ThankYouForNotSmoking]

From my experience, when they smell like ammonia, they are not good to smoke, otherwise, they're fine. I don't think there's any general guideline for all cigars or even a specific cigar on this since everyone keeps their cigars at slightly different temperatures and slightly different humidities, both which can affect the quality and speed of aging. Just smell them, if it smells like you want to smoke it, dive in.

 

[doohnibor]

I have found that being patient and aging has its merits. I generally only smoke "new releases" and ELs young. Otherwise, it's >5 years for me.

 

[Nuphy]

Factors for aging are also the ring size (smaller sizes are often smokeable after 2 - 3 years already, check for ammonia smell, larger sizes need often longer), storing/packing conditions (well closed/sealed cabinets delay maturing usually by several years, compared to storaging them in boxes or as singles in an often vented humidor, also tubes delay the aging somewhat), blend of tobaccos (marque), ...

 

[cigardawg]

From my experience, when they smell like ammonia, they are not good to smoke, otherwise, they're fine. I don't think there's any general guideline for all cigars or even a specific cigar on this since everyone keeps their cigars at slightly different temperatures and slightly different humidities, both which can affect the quality and speed of aging. Just smell them, if it smells like you want to smoke it, dive in.

Actually, I cannot completely agree with this statement or series of statements. While I do agree that if the cigars still smell of ammonia, they should not be smoked. They are clearly in the middle of a fermentation process and will most likely has an ammonia taste as well. However, just because they do not smell of ammonia, does not mean they are fine.

I'll use a couple of examples from the Partagas line. The first is the fairly well known sick period of the PSD4. These cigars taste fine fresh, assuming the last fermentation has been completed. I'm talking cigars that are around 3-12 months old (of course there are some plusses/minuses to this times). They taste young, but they taste fine. At around the 12 month mark, this cigar seems to go into a "sick period." The cigar does not smell of ammonia, but is has basically become a flavorless cylinder of tobacco. I believe MRN calls this the first vacuum period. Based on my experience, this period lasts anywhere from 8-12 months (give or take). As a rule of thumb, a 2 year old PSD4 is a very nice cigar. A 3-5 year old PSD4 is an outstanding cigar.

The second example is the Serie D No. 1 EL 2004 (NOV04). This cigar was good when first purchased. However, like the PSD4, it went into a "sick period" around the 12 month mark. I smoked one during this time (I believe it was around 6 months ago)...BLECH. It was bland, flavorless, and uninteresting...obviously in this vacuum period. I am hoping this cigar will come out of this period with flying colors...only time will tell. I plan on waiting until this cigar is at least 2 years old before smoking another.

These are just a couple of examples. I personally feel that RASS also go through a period like this, just an abbreviated one and not as noticible. Other cigars do as well to varying degrees. You are right about varying temperatures and humidities influencing the speed and even the quality of aging. Higher temperatures will speed the process (the rate of fermentation goes up with increasing temperatures. This is not necessarily good or bad, just fact.

You are right about choosing to smoke a cigar...smell it. If it smells like you want to smoke it, fire it up. The only way you will find out what it tastes like is to do just that. :thumbs:

 

[Ginseng]

Well said, Scot, well said. You've got a wealth of experience and it's great to hear your perspective.

"Flavorless cylinder of tobacco" is pretty much how I'd describe the Partagas sick period as well. The PSP2 seem to drop into this as well although not quite as severely as the PSD4. What say you?

My PSD1 are also from. Please let me know when they are ready to dance.

Ditto your remarks on the effects of temperature and humidity. I'd also add that the degree of sealing or isolation the cigars experience are also a factor. This latter point is primarily in reference to access to oxygen to support further oxidative changes such as aerobic reactions. These could not genuinely be regarded as fermentations though. The primary fermentation of cigar tobacco is the result of the biological action of a cluster of approximately four key bacteria.

Wilkey

 

[Infinity]

This latter point is primarily in reference to access to oxygen to support further oxidative changes such as aerobic reactions.
Wilkey

Meaning that you should open your humidor from time to time! Unless you have a dedicated storage humi, most people, depending on their smoking habits, open their humi several times a week. How often in your opinion should you open your humi?

Brian

 

[Ginseng]

This latter point is primarily in reference to access to oxygen to support further oxidative changes such as aerobic reactions.
Wilkey

Meaning that you should open your humidor from time to time! Unless you have a dedicated storage humi, most people, depending on their smoking habits, open their humi several times a week. How often in your opinion should you open your humi?

Brian

That question opens up a can of worms.

Practically speaking, if you have a humidor or cooler in which to store cigars for near term smoking, meaning immediately to several months, it doesn't matter. Open it as often as you like to retrieve smokes or to get your fix of tobac-aroma.

The opinion of several serious Havanaphiles is that for long term storage, cooler and dryer conditions result in slower, gentler, and "better" aging. The question of air (oxygen) exposure is a highly contentious one. Some opine that air circulation in a confined space is beneficial while others hold that for best long term effects, cigars should be sealed up like wine in a bottle.

If we are to believe that lower temperatures and lower humidity are good things, then logic dictates that less oxygen must be the favorable condition. So, from this line of reasoning, deep storage humidors should be disturbed as little as possible.

Short question, long answer. I hope that makes some sense.

Wilkey

PS. A flight of fancy of mine takes this idea to the extreme. If one were able to take a cigar and seal it up in a time capsule purged with nitrogen and a small amount of water vapor, in principle, the cigar should last forever, unchanged. Time to start putting down smokes for Y3K Can you imagine smoking a 1,000 year old fresh RASS?

 

[Infinity]

This latter point is primarily in reference to access to oxygen to support further oxidative changes such as aerobic reactions.
Wilkey

Meaning that you should open your humidor from time to time! Unless you have a dedicated storage humi, most people, depending on their smoking habits, open their humi several times a week. How often in your opinion should you open your humi?

Brian

That question opens up a can of worms.

Practically speaking, if you have a humidor or cooler in which to store cigars for near term smoking, meaning immediately to several months, it doesn't matter. Open it as often as you like to retrieve smokes or to get your fix of tobac-aroma.

The opinion of several serious Havanaphiles is that for long term storage, cooler and dryer conditions result in slower, gentler, and "better" aging. The question of air (oxygen) exposure is a highly contentious one. Some opine that air circulation in a confined space is beneficial while others hold that for best long term effects, cigars should be sealed up like wine in a bottle.

If we are to believe that lower temperatures and lower humidity are good things, then logic dictates that less oxygen must be the favorable condition. So, from this line of reasoning, deep storage humidors should be disturbed as little as possible.

Short question, long answer. I hope that makes some sense.

Wilkey

PS. A flight of fancy of mine takes this idea to the extreme. If one were able to take a cigar and seal it up in a time capsule purged with nitrogen and a small amount of water vapor, in principle, the cigar should last forever, unchanged. Time to start putting down smokes for Y3K Can you imagine smoking a 1,000 year old fresh RASS?

Sure, it makes sense. However, this is not a definitive answer, almost akin to "the jury is still out" :whistling:

One thousand year old stick, what the hell, why didn't our ancestors of 1,000 years ago store one for us? :laugh:

Brian

 

[Ginseng]

Brian,

The point is that there is no definitive answer.

I'm going to open my humidor and sniff it right now. I'll be back to report on the findings in, oh 20 years.

Wilkey

 

[2stroke_bluesmoke]

FWIW, I have noticed as well that timing is everything. The urge to smoke all the cigars one spend a decent amount of cash on can be overpowering, but I have found that some of my H. Upmans did get better and smoother with years of aging on them. DAWG definitely brought up some good points as well as other posters, especially: if it smells bad, it probably will smoke bad. I also have had some problems with Monte #1's and #4's going flat. The HDM DC's also seem to have a very long 2+ year flat period starting about 6 months after shipment dating. As far as humidor cycling, sorry I can't help. Just my 2 cents.

 

[cigardawg]

Ditto your remarks on the effects of temperature and humidity. I'd also add that the degree of sealing or isolation the cigars experience are also a factor. This latter point is primarily in reference to access to oxygen to support further oxidative changes such as aerobic reactions. These could not genuinely be regarded as fermentations though. The primary fermentation of cigar tobacco is the result of the biological action of a cluster of approximately four key bacteria.

Yep, I agree with you on the degree of sealing/isolation as well. I was attempting to keep my answer as simple as possible and focused only on the fermentation reactions that cause the ammonia. Of course, over time, this ammonia breaks down into various bi-products. This is primarily due to oxidation reactions. The NH3 (ammonia) when exposed to oxygen, initially breaks down to various nitrites. Additional oxygen will further oxidize the nitrogen to form various nitrates. I am making the assumption that these are the primary (not necessarily the only) reactions that remove the ammonia caused by fermentation.

Obviously, these reactions will increase in rate with greater amounts of oxygen. Therefore, if you open your box and let it sit in the open air, the ammonia will be gone much quicker than leaving it unopened for months on end in a humidor. Is this good or bad? MRN says it is bad. While you speed up the process, the end result is not as good as if you had allowed it to happen slowly. In the short term, I would argue that the cigars will be very similar, but in the long term they will not.

Why not in the long term? This is where the answer gets much more complicated and much less understood. Based on my reading, conversations, and knowledge of chemistry, I would surmise that the oxidation reactions are just a small part of the aging process. There are many more chemicals in the tobacco that break down over time. Just increasing the oxidation of the ammonia (and, obviously other chemicals) might allow for quicker smoking and shorter "sick" periods, but it will not allow the cigar to properly mature.

I could go into what some of these reactions are theorized to be, but I am already getting cramps in my fingers from typing. Would love to continue this line of thinking, however. Holds great interest to me. :thumbs:

Finally, Wilkey, you stated that the fermentation is primarily caused by four strains of bacteria. Of course when you ferment grains, you end up with alcohol. I am assuming, therefore, that these fermentation reactions within the tobacco are anaerobic. Would explain the formation of ammonia. Is there correct?

 

[NullSmurf]

Ditto your remarks on the effects of temperature and humidity. I'd also add that the degree of sealing or isolation the cigars experience are also a factor. This latter point is primarily in reference to access to oxygen to support further oxidative changes such as aerobic reactions. These could not genuinely be regarded as fermentations though. The primary fermentation of cigar tobacco is the result of the biological action of a cluster of approximately four key bacteria.

Yep, I agree with you on the degree of sealing/isolation as well. I was attempting to keep my answer as simple as possible and focused only on the fermentation reactions that cause the ammonia. Of course, over time, this ammonia breaks down into various bi-products. This is primarily due to oxidation reactions. The NH3 (ammonia) when exposed to oxygen, initially breaks down to various nitrites. Additional oxygen will further oxidize the nitrogen to form various nitrates. I am making the assumption that these are the primary (not necessarily the only) reactions that remove the ammonia caused by fermentation.

Obviously, these reactions will increase in rate with greater amounts of oxygen. Therefore, if you open your box and let it sit in the open air, the ammonia will be gone much quicker than leaving it unopened for months on end in a humidor. Is this good or bad? MRN says it is bad. While you speed up the process, the end result is not as good as if you had allowed it to happen slowly. In the short term, I would argue that the cigars will be very similar, but in the long term they will not.

Why not in the long term? This is where the answer gets much more complicated and much less understood. Based on my reading, conversations, and knowledge of chemistry, I would surmise that the oxidation reactions are just a small part of the aging process. There are many more chemicals in the tobacco that break down over time. Just increasing the oxidation of the ammonia (and, obviously other chemicals) might allow for quicker smoking and shorter "sick" periods, but it will not allow the cigar to properly mature.

I could go into what some of these reactions are theorized to be, but I am already getting cramps in my fingers from typing. Would love to continue this line of thinking, however. Holds great interest to me. :thumbs:

Finally, Wilkey, you stated that the fermentation is primarily caused by four strains of bacteria. Of course when you ferment grains, you end up with alcohol. I am assuming, therefore, that these fermentation reactions within the tobacco are anaerobic. Would explain the formation of ammonia. Is there correct?

I still don't regret not having to take Organic!

 

[Infinity]

I still don't regret not having to take Organic!

Bruce,

your statements often leave me guessing for a while - almost like lateral thinking :whistling:
Why can't you be normal and just say - "I'm glad I did not take organic chemistry" :thumbs: :laugh:

Very interesting thread Scot and Wilkey!

Brian

 

[Mr Peat]

Didnt take Organic, Nullsmurf? Walk in the park classes. Try Biochemistry instead. :laugh: Fortunately my cigars never enter a sick phase. Doesnt matter which one it is cuz they dont last long in the first place. But things have now changed so this thread is very interesting to read since I will be able to buy 5 to 10 boxes a month if I so choose. One thing that wasnt mention and a good way to tell if a cigar isnt ready. Exhale the smoke through the nasal passage. If it burns and not feel so good, it means the cigar isnt ready yet. At least that is what I was told from Ernesto Perez-Carillio (sp?) from LCG. I found that fact to be something good to know. Yes, we talked about isom's as well.