SPRING FEVER PASS (April pass)

[cody5thou]

Man oh man, looks like we are stuck on the verdict. I agree Padrons you can find anywhere. But those prices for the anjeo’s are crazy. Let’s help this brother out so we can have a great closer to this Spring Pass.

 

[Jonesy]

You're right Jay, Anejo's are way too rare for regular Padron puts.

I think both Anejos and PAN/PAMs can be classified as "HTF" (these are not "regular" Padrons), and both command serious price premiums both online and in B&Ms, with the only difference being the more frequent availability of Padrons.

This is what Jay means...this is one of the only sites I could find that is selling Anejos:
http://www.showmeyourash.com/cigar_search.aspx?brand_id=234

This site also sells PAM's:
http://www.showmeyourash.com/cigar_search.aspx?brand_id=79

Those Anejo prices are completely outlandish. If that's what we're using to determine value, then nobody would be able to trade for these.

X2.......If you're gonna go by those prices on the Anejo's you might as well let me move them to the side in the pass because I could put in a GoF for one and it still wouldn't cover those prices. $30 for an Anejo?????? c'mon guys be realistic here.

 

[NorCalCigarLover]

Sorry for butting in here guys but I always use the CP Anejo and Padron Reference threads for fair pricing and comparison of these sticks for a Pass.

 

[bfreebern]

Anejos are released 3-4 times/year, so they are pretty rare. I'd suggest re-thinking the Padron for Anejo puts/takes.

Phlicker, do you think this would fly at CF?

 

[NorCalCigarLover]

Anejos are released 3-4 times/year, so they are pretty rare. I'd suggest re-thinking the Padron for Anejo puts/takes.

Phlicker, do you think this would fly at CF?

I gotta agree with Freebern here, I would only allow the #49 trade and only if soomeone really, really wanted to try one. But then I've been accused of being too generous before.

 

[CigarStone]

This a tough question...............

Anejos can be obtained a few times a year and usually between MSRP and MSRP + 15%. The PAM's are not as tough to get but they are slightly higher in price (real price). Showmeyourash is clearly gouging on the Anejo prices.

Maybe the upcoming guide will help to resolve this issue for the future!

 

[Phlicker]

Anejos are released 3-4 times/year, so they are pretty rare. I'd suggest re-thinking the Padron for Anejo puts/takes.

Phlicker, do you think this would fly at CF?

Actually? I do...the guys over there seem to have more than enough Anejos to go around, but that's not my point...my point is it feels like the rules seem to keep changing on me.

Forget the Anejos...I'll buy them for myself when Father's Day rolls around in a few weeks. Enjoy them, Jay. But I'd just like some clarification:

<vent>
If a $12+ super premium isn't enough to replace a $9.50 super premium, then what is? If the fact that Anejos are released only a handful of times a year adds to it's monetary value over and above MSRP, then what is that extra value? $3 more? $5 more? Double? What minimum MSRP would a cigar have to carry in order to be considered worthy to replace a $9.50 cigar that's released 4x a year? OR can it only be exchanged for a cigar of equal or greater MSRP that is released in a similarly limited fashion? If that's the case then there are only a few cigars you feasibly could exchange it for, Opus and Hemingway Maduros being the only that come to mind. However, in my case, Opus is available to me year-round at MSRP courtesy of Holts, so does that give me an unfair advantage in trading? Do I need to disclose that before placing a FFOX in a pass?

Where do we draw the line between "rare" and "not rare"...are there different levels of "rare?" If so, can someone let me know what levels of "rare" all the super premiums fit into so I can reference it in future passes?

I had a similar discrepancy in Cory's Training Wheels pass with a DC #3 and a WOAM. Many of you here are in that pass, too. Someone before me took a WOAM (MSRP $7.35, released sporadically and usually only during the holidays and occasionally on Father's Day...although not last year) and replaced it with a DC #3 from the 30th anniversary sampler (the one containing the DC Lancero and retailed for about $95). Using the logic above, you would think that the WOAM would and should have a value over and above it's MSRP, and greatly so, due to it's rarity and sporadic, less-than-widespread release. The DC on the other hand, is the same cigar that you would pull out of a box of #3's off your B&M's shelf for a price of around $7.75...the gift pack wasn't re-blended, these are literally the same cigars with a specially-printed celophane pulled out of a special box (with the added bonus of a Lancero), yet this P/T was allowed due to the perceived "rarity" of the DC. Other than it being a year and a half old (from Christmas '05), I honestly don't see what makes this cigar so rare...the cellophane...the box that it came out of? Is that what we've come to value in trading? If so, I'm keeping this cello and slapping it on the next #3 I buy for another pass (j/k )

Now, I like Don Carlos', and was running low, and happened to have a few extra WOAMs laying around, so I thought I'd trade them, thinking that I was actually making the pass better by putting in a HTF for a regular production stick. It turns out I was wrong, as the fact that the DC was pulled from a sampler and had a special cello actually made it MUCH more valuable than a once-a-year Hemingway Maduro. However, I was told that if the WOAM in question came from the recent Fuente Holiday sampler, then it might hold more value. How? Unless it is a special blend or unique vitola, how is a cigar put into a sampler worth any more than a single pulled out of a whole box of the same sticks? I guarantee if I took the cello off both, no one could tell the difference.

In the end I ended up trading a FFOX xXx for it (MSRP $9.25) which I felt was a little lopsided, but I wanted to play by the rules and agreed to do so with the pass host. Since this seems to be so valuable, I'd be happy to part with it, however, I guarantee if I tried to turn around here and trade it for the LFD Limitado II (couldn't find an MSRP, but an average from 4 online retailers showed a value of $7.80 per) instead of the Lancero, I'd be rebuffed. It's almost as if sticks are undervalued on the way in and overvalued on the way out, which leads me to believe that these passes really are designed to increase in value, despite the statements to the contrary in Cory's new thread in the Open Pass Forum.
</vent>

I know we are supposed to "have fun", but this constant micro-analyzing of every P and T takes some of that fun away for me, even though it seems like it ought to be fairly obvious when someone is trying to take advantage of a pass. That being said, I have and always will play by the rules of the "club", regardless of whether or not I happen to agree with them. Here are my two P's/T's:

T: Avo LE07; P: Ashton ESG Robusto
T: LFD Limitado II; P: LFD DL Lancero

 

[enerjay]

How do you factor in rarity, or even determine a cigar's rarity? Can rarity be given a monetary amount?

The best bet for determining the rarity of a cigar is to really do your research and get to know the cigar you would like to trade for, search is your friend. I know this advice is often times sometimes given as a flippant response but in this instance you as the trader need to fully know what you are asking for. You DO NOT want to come off as if your trying to take advantage of the Pass Host or the Pass Members, not good form and It'll definitely get you in hot water.

When searching CP, focus your search on the Pass Section first. Then, you can see what others have traded before you, there's nothing wrong with duplicating a past trade. Is the cigar popular on the board? is it highly sought after? do group buys or sales fill up quickly? if yes to all or most then it could be a rarer cigar.

Next, search the web for the cigar and ask yourself the same questions, but this time time also look at availability. It it limited production? limited release? special occasion?. If it's sold out or back ordered at "most" places, except where prices are tripled or more, it's probably a highly sought after cigar which could also make it a rarer cigar.

Once you've done your research, you can now determine the "trade value" of the cigar. Starting with MSRP, or acceptable retail value, is a good place to start, now using your research factor in the rarity value. Sorry, I can't give you any hard numbers but you get the idea. Now run your suggested P&T past the Pass Host and Members and see what they think.

Cigar Pass FAQ Q: & A:

What are your thoughts on the equality of a trade (one for one)? Do you ever put in more than what the cigar is worth or more than just one cigar? What about a host bag and what is it?

If in a pass, it is a given to replace any cigars taken on a one for one basis with a cigar of equal or greater value. It is not normally acceptable to take a Havana and replace with a domestic. I tend to leave little doubt about my replacement cigars being of equal or greater value so yes, I usually put in cigars valued more than the cigar I’ve taken though it is not neccessary. I have put more cigars in a pass than I’ve taken but never replace a $10 cigar with two $5 cigars. Usually the extra cigars are something I think others in the pass may like to try. I don’t personally care for a host bag unless there is something particularly special going on. The above is based on usual standard Pass rules. There are always exceptions and the Host is responsible for laying the foundation of any exceptions.

How do you determine a cigar's value when attempting to trade for the cigar in a pass? How do you determine your own cigar's value? What are your thoughts on MSRP? What are your thoughts on Going Market Value?

A cigars value is whatever someone is willing to pay for it. With that said, for Pass purposes we have to be somewhat flexible between MSRP and Market Value. Add to this the wide difference in taxes each State charges and you have a range of value that’s not quite exact from one person to the next. MSRP is a good base to use.

How do you factor in rarity, or even determine a cigar's rarity? Can rarity be given a monetary amount?

If its rare then there was a premium paid for it. If you do not know the approx value of a rare cigar it is perfectly acceptable and recommended to inquire from the person that put the cigar in the pass as to its value.

How do you factor in the age of a cigar into a trade? Is this something that should be considered for domestics as well as ISOMs? Can age be given a monetary amount?

In a pass it is not normally acceptable to take aged cigars and replace with new production. Example would be replacing a 98 cigar with a 06 cigar. There are exceptions and they should be spelled out by the Pass Host prior to the pass starting. Age does carry a premium and that premium depends on the amount of age and the cigar itself. Very little, if any premium, IMO, for a cigar under 4 to 5 years.


As a cigar pass continues, sometimes the value of some of the sticks increase. Let's say someone traded for stick #3, a $5 stick, and put in stick #22, an $8 stick. If a passer down the line wanted to trade for stick #22, could s/he trade it for a $5 stick? Why or why not?

NO, if one takes an $8 stick he should replace it with a stick of equal or greater value. This shouldn’t have to be explained.

Trades in passes seem to be kept to a stricter standard than many trades I have done or heard about on the board. Why is this?

Trades done between two people are very different than trades done during a pass. When doing a trade between two people you have only yourself and the other person to satisfy that the trade is fair and equal. In a Pass you have maybe a dozen people involved and trades done on the front end of a pass actually involve every other person in the pass that has yet to receive the pass. Trying to keep the criteria somewhat the same is the objective.

Why is it recommended that you participate in a few passes before considering hosting a pass yourself? Isn't the host of the pass the one risking his/her cigars?

This is sorta like asking why should I take flying lessons if I already own a plane. All one has to do is read previous passes to see that problems come up during passes and having someone at the helm that knows whats right and wrong is essential. Most things should be covered on the front end of a pass but unless you have participated in a few you will have no idea of what to expect. I personally believe it should be a requirement to participate in at least three or four before hosting one.

What are your thoughts on trading gifted cigars in a pass?

If someone hosts a pass, IMO, the cigars they receive are their cigars to do with what they wish. An example would be if I received several cigars that I know I do not like I would have no problem trading them to someone that does like them. With that said, IMO, anyone that hosts a pass and then is obviously using cigars received in the pass for trading or financial gain then I would consider this individual to be taking advantage of the people who participated in the pass and not acceptable.


It seems that a pass' value increases as it continues. Does it seem like the pass host is profiting from having a pass? Does it happen?

A Pass is not designed to increase in value but frequently does. Usually the generosity of the participants is the culprit.


What are your thoughts on the concept of leaving the pass better than you found it? Does that phrase have anything to do with the cigars in the pass?

That concept involves everything with the Pass. One should always check the container to insure whatever is being used to humidify the cigars is properly charged. One should always inventory the pass when received and again when it is shipped. Check the accuracy of the cigar list. Check the packaging…. Does it need to be replaced? All in all " leaving the pass better than you found it" is about looking out for the other participants in the pass just as you would expect for them to look out for you. Its up to each person to care for the pass properly and make decisions based on whats best for the pass.


What would be your top three guiding principles that any pass participant should keep in mind?

Common Sense
Integrity
Have Fun

Cigar Pass FAQ Q: & A:

All my comments are geared around passes in general. Each pass will have its own set of rules which should be followed and may lend themselves to exceptions.[/b]

What are your thoughts on the equality of a trade (one for one)? Do you ever put in more than what the cigar is worth or more than just one cigar? What about a host bag and what is it?

I believe strongly in trading one for one, value for value. If I choose to put in more than one cigar, e.g. take 3 put 5, it is for some personal reason and is no way expected or mandatory. If I thought it was expected, I probably wouldn't be in the pass.

A host bag is a place for participants to give a cigar to the host that are not to be traded for in the pass; it is in VERY poor taste if started by the pass host. And again, it is up to each person's discretion if s/he wants to put something in there and should never be considered mandatory.


Cigars may get damaged as a pass moves on so I try to put in cigars that are in excellent shape. The foot shouldn't be cracked, the wrapper shouldn't be scarred or peeling, and the tip shouldn't already be clipped or punched.

I also try to look at what cigars are already in the pass. It is nice to have some variety and not be overloaded with one style or manufacturer.

How do you determine a cigar's value when attempting to trade for the cigar in a pass? How do you determine your own cigar's value? What are your thoughts on MSRP? What are your thoughts on Going Market Value?

Since this is an Internet cigar board, I look for pricing from online retailers. I try to find both my Take and Put from the same online source to compare pricing, and I try to find at least two and up to four different sources if possible. I will look at the box price and divide by the number of cigars in the box to find the price per cigar. MSRP is great when comparing cigars by one producer (all Padron or Fuente) and can be helpful when pricing is difficult to find. However, it usually doesn't take into account rarity, age, or popularity. Do some research!!!

How do you factor in rarity, or even determine a cigar's rarity? Can rarity be given a monetary amount?

[b]Rarity is difficult, especially if you are new to cigars or the variety that is out there. Moki's website, vitolas.net has some good info on rarity. But when in doubt, the best way to find out is to ask, either the pass host or another respected member of this board should be able to assist.
How do you factor in the age of a cigar into a trade? Is this something that should be considered for domestics as well as ISOMs? Can age be given a monetary amount?

Age can add to a cigars rarity, and for ISOMs it seems to greatly enhance the experience of smoking the cigar. Equating the age to a dollar amount is possible and there are a couple thoughts on this (A, B). 1 - 3 years of difference isn't a very big difference, but 10 years is huge. It is something that should definitely be kept in mind.

As a cigar pass continues, sometimes the value of some of the sticks increase. Let's say someone traded for stick #3, a $5 stick, and put in stick #22, an $8 stick. If a passer down the line wanted to trade for stick #22, could s/he trade it for a $5 stick? Why or why not?

Hell No! Who knows why the person put in a more valuable cigar, but it was his/her option to leave the pass better than they found it. Nuff said.

Trades in passes seem to be kept to a stricter standard than many trades I have done or heard about on the board. Why is this?

Passes have a lot of eyes on them. There is everyone in the pass and a ton of members looking on. The last thing we would want is to set a precedence of a poorly run pass. (Slippery Slope)

Why is it recommended that you participate in a few passes before considering hosting a pass yourself? Isn't the host of the pass the one risking his/her cigars?

I blundered this one when I first joined. To put simply, You don't know what you don't know! Enthusiasm is encouraged, just take a little guidance. As I said before, there are a lot of eyes on passes and we don't want to set a precedence for poorly run passes. (profiteering, fakes, stolen cigars, damaged cigars, etc.)

What are your thoughts on trading gifted cigars in a pass?

If you don't know the source of the cigar, you should never put it in a pass. If you don't know how the cigar has been cared for, you probably shouldn't put it in a pass. Personally, I think it is in bad form. Passes should be kept to a higher standard.

It seems that a pass' value increases as it continues. Does it seem like the pass host is profiting from having a pass? Does it happen?

Passes are expensive in both time and money. There is a lot of money in cigars that the host is risking for the benefit of others, and there is no guarantee that s/he will get back the cigars, and if s/he does they may not even be cigars that s/he likes. Profiteering is frowned upon and if suspected, s/he will get his/her ass handed to 'em.

What are your thoughts on the concept of leaving the pass better than you found it? Does that phrase have anything to do with the cigars in the pass?

It could have something to do with the cigars, but usually refers to the pass itself. Traveling to a bunch of people can be hard on the pass and cigars, so do what you can to breath some life into it. Swap out the shipping box. Check the humidity. Add some baggies. Add a pen or sharpie. Etc.

What would be your top three guiding principles that any pass participant should keep in mind?

Communication
Leave the pass better than you found it
Have Fun!!!!!

Mike,

You have quite a few good points, i really wish I could address some of them,however I am not a cigar aficionado by any means. As for how the board views rare cigars or the trading of again I have no say.

I can say I had this experience link.

 

[JHolmes763]

Those quotes/posts are great, but they still don't really give an answer. If a group of FOGs could get together and agree upon a baseline percentage due to rarity and aging, it'd give us noobs something to at least start from. I wanted to trade for the #77, too. I knew the $9 MSRP was far too low and the gouging $30 way to high, but I couldn't find a definitive value. Maybe the reference threads could give a "perceived" value instead of just MSRP?

 

[Jonesy]

Those quotes/posts are great, but they still don't really give an answer. If a group of FOGs could get together and agree upon a baseline percentage due to rarity and aging, it'd give us noobs something to at least start from. I wanted to trade for the #77, too. I knew the $9 MSRP was far too low and the gouging $30 way to high, but I couldn't find a definitive value. Maybe the reference threads could give a "perceived" value instead of just MSRP?

X2........ I didn't think the Padron's for Anejo's would fly but there is no definitive dollar amount for any of these cigars. The advice that I was given when asking an experienced pass host was to check past passes and see what was traded for those certain cigars. You know this isn't the first pass to include Anejo's so there are previous passes for us to reference and find a "reasonable" trade value for a cigar that has a certain amount of rarity or age. Everyones opinion on what a cigar is worth is going to vary when there is no set dollar amount that you can put on a cigar that has age or is rare......therefore it needs to defer to the pass host. Maybe the P/T's need to be pm'ed to the host before posting them so we can leave out all the extra drama. I understand that this is a learning process for us all, but there have been a few incidents now that could have been avoided with a direct pm.

 

[JHolmes763]

I feel the "drama" needs to be public, especially on beginner passes. We can all learn from it and there's no need/reason for anyone to get really upset.

The idea of looking in past passes is a good one. Some searching is in order...

 

[NorCalCigarLover]

Those quotes/posts are great, but they still don't really give an answer. If a group of FOGs could get together and agree upon a baseline percentage due to rarity and aging, it'd give us noobs something to at least start from. I wanted to trade for the #77, too. I knew the $9 MSRP was far too low and the gouging $30 way to high, but I couldn't find a definitive value. Maybe the reference threads could give a "perceived" value instead of just MSRP?

I would think a #77 for a BTL would be a fair trade.

 

[Jonesy]

Has anyone pm'ed any of the experienced members of this pass for their thoughts on this yet?

 

[Phlicker]

I would think a #77 for a BTL would be a fair trade.

So, are you saying that the Anejo Shark has a perceived value of $13 ($4 higher than MSRP)? Or that they're both valued at an equally higher price? If it's the former, there are some that would argue that valuing Hemi Maduros, especially the BTL, at MSRP is incorrect, that some "premium" needs to be added to their prices due to scarcity. If it's the later, then how high? Adding a similar $4 premium to the BTL, you start to approach double MSRP for the Shark. Is that what these are worth? I personally would never pay $17 - $20 for a cigar I could get for $9.50 if I was patient enough.

 

[hojadepuro]

Wow you are right. You guys are making things way too complicated. If you are taking a limited release cigar such as Opus or Anejo, etc, then it would be ideal to trade a similarly rare cigar. So if you want to take an Anejo then try puting an Opus in for it. It is really not that big of a deal. After a while you just know what puts will be "equal." There is no formula to use or written rules that will cover every situation.

On the trade in question you are taking a $10 rare cigar and putting a cigar that can be had any day of the week for about $8.50. After a bit of time, you just start to understand what would be a fair trade. IMO a Padron '26 #2 would be a fair trade in this situation. It also has to do with the pass host. In the past I am doing right now, I am not watching the P/T too closely. I am not as worried about getting taken care of as I am allowing some great guys to enjoy some great cigars. I want them to try out the cigars they want, and I trust them to make sure the pass stays exciting for everyone. This doesn't need to turn into a long drawn out thread. As long as CP has been doing passes, people usually post their P/T's and if there is a problem then someone voices their concern. No big deal, and it gets taken care of. So, don't be afraid of posting your P/T's. If someone has a concern they will voice it and you can fix it. That simple. Hope some of that rambling makes a little since. Clear as mud I hope. Hope you guys are having fun with the pass. I think this has been the most confusing pass ever on CP. :sign:

Brandon

 

[CigarStone]

Is it part of the plan in this upcoming guide to assign a "rarity factor" to rare sticks? Like a 1.2 or 1.5 factor for example?

Phlicker: Your point about not paying $20 for a $10 cigar (with patience mixed in) is spot on!

 

[Martin2D]

Well, I feel bad for posting that link now. The intent wasn't to say that they're worth $30, but to show that they're not available unless you WANT to pay a huge premium. Sorry for it being misconstrued.

 

[enerjay]

Hope some of that rambling makes a little since. Clear as mud I hope. Hope you guys are having fun with the pass. I think this has been the most confusing pass ever on CP.

Granted there has been one issue after another with this pass, We can start with the Host having never been in a pass, let alone starting one. :sign:

However, having said this, ALL you NOOB's as we have been so called (my self included) should take a bow. We have kept are cool, and learned the hard way.

For this gentleman I salute you.

 

[enerjay]

Mike

Ship that BOX !

thanks Jay

 

[Phlicker]

This is boxed up and ready to go out. I added distilled H20 to both of the bead tubes, updated the P/T spreadsheet on the jump drive, and printed out a new copy to use from here on out. Jay should have the corrections to the list in post #1 soon. I've already been in contact with Jonesy, so I know he's ready. I'll edit this post to add the DC # after I get back from the Post Office.

Edit:
This went out from the Wynnewood, PA P.O. today on its way to Dallas, NC.
DC #0307 0020 0004 6809 7745