Kosmo
New Member
Due to an idiotic move on my part, a little bit of propylene glycol leaked out of my humidifier and got on a few cigars. Not a whole lot, but enough to wet the wrapper a bit. Question is: Is it safe to smoke them?
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Propylene Glycol leak
- Thread starter Kosmo
- Start date
PG is used as a food additive so I can't imagine a few drops is a big deal. I'd give them a day or two out of the humi to dry out and they should be fine.
Regards - B.B.S.
Regards - B.B.S.
amateuraficionado
Active Member
.....ditto that! Besides the fact that you're going to have some serious burn issues, the stuff's not safe. Keep it out of your humidor, you don't need. Plain old distilled water.... that's it! One of the items containing PG missing from the list in the first linky is candy! That's right.... they put this crap in some of our children's candy!
Minimum Fatal Dose Level:
1=PRACTICALLY NONTOXIC: PROBABLE ORAL LETHAL DOSE (HUMAN) IS ABOVE 15 G/KG; FOR 70 KG PERSON (150 LB), MORE THAN 1 QT (2.2 LB).
[Gosselin, R.E., H.C. Hodge, R.P. Smith, and M.N. Gleason. Clinical Toxicology of Commercial Products. 4th ed. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1976., p. II-120]**PEER REVIEWED**
Yea, he did only say a little!
Aeroscott
the Eternal Pessimist
Propylene Glycol or Antifreeze as it's known to me is one of the most toxic substances I handle on a regular basis, 
I wouldn't smoke anything with PG on it. a small amount, 1 or 2 oz is enough to kill a dog if ingested, Toss em IMHO.
edited I looked opn a bottle of antifreeze and it's Ethelyne Glycol that's the super toxic crap soory for any confusion caused..
I wouldn't smoke anything with PG on it. a small amount, 1 or 2 oz is enough to kill a dog if ingested, Toss em IMHO.edited I looked opn a bottle of antifreeze and it's Ethelyne Glycol that's the super toxic crap soory for any confusion caused..
If I'm not mistaken, antifreeze has a lot in it besides PG. It's my understanding that the great portion of the toxicity comes from the anti corrosives, surfactants, and other "stuff" that is in antifreeze.Propylene Glycol or Antifreeze as it's known to me is one of the most toxic substances I handle on a regular basis,
As you can see by Gary's links, it takes a lot of pure PG to provide any significant toxicity:
It's used as a food preservative. I just can't imagine a couple of drops on a stick would cause any issues at all. But then, I'm an electrical engineer so when it gets right down to it, I don't know jack about chemistry or human toxicity....
Hopefully our good friend Ginseng will check in and give us the real 411.....Cheers, guys - B.B.S.
PG is pretty benign. It is in fact used in foods as a humectant or moistening agent. The other common use is in waterless, hand cleaner/antiseptic where neither water nor alcohol are allowed. Curious as PG is a dialcohol and not readily flammable.
EG in its pure form is clear and colorless and essentially odorless. One look at the nasty color in Prestone will suggest that there are a whole host of very nasty ingredients in there.
Analogous to the ethanol (relatively nontoxic) and methanol (highly toxic) relationship, it is the metabolites of the material that are toxic and not the material itself. Methanol is turned by the body into formaldehyde which leads rapidly to eye damage and ethylene glycol is turned into glycoaldehyde which then leads to other nasties. So, if you drink a bunch by accident, the first line of treatment is to induce vomiting.
Wilkey
EG in its pure form is clear and colorless and essentially odorless. One look at the nasty color in Prestone will suggest that there are a whole host of very nasty ingredients in there.
Analogous to the ethanol (relatively nontoxic) and methanol (highly toxic) relationship, it is the metabolites of the material that are toxic and not the material itself. Methanol is turned by the body into formaldehyde which leads rapidly to eye damage and ethylene glycol is turned into glycoaldehyde which then leads to other nasties. So, if you drink a bunch by accident, the first line of treatment is to induce vomiting.
Wilkey
MilesMingusMonk
Breaking Wind Master
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amateuraficionado
Active Member
:laugh: What the hell kind of cigar was that?
I sell Propylene Glycol based and the USP version of it is approved for direct food consumption. Although I'm sure you couldn't drink a gallon of it with no ill effects, the little that got onto cigars here would most likely be harmless. Since it does not evaporate readily, you will most likely experience some burn issues though.
An interesting side note to Methanol, if you do ingest some (and as little as four ounces I'm told can be fatal) you're best bet would be to drink beer or another alcoholic beverage. I have a customer who as a teenager drank some methanol to get a buzz with his buddies. He felt sick after a couple of swallows and went home to bed. He is now blind. His buddies kept on drinking that night and only suffered immense hangovers and nausea. The Eastman Chemical training I have received has confirmed this. Although I do not know the science behind ethyl alcohol combatting methyl alcohol (other than maybe diluting it), this is what I've been told.
I suspect it has to do with competing affinities for the binding sites in the ocular nerves. In other words, this seems to suggest that the metabolites of ethanol preferentially attach to the areas that would otherwise be damaged by the methanol metabolites. Thus, the formaldehyde is displaced and never gets to accumulate to the point where it would cause the damage necessary to result in blindness.
This is a similar phenomenon to carbon monoxide poisoning. CO has at least one thousand times the affinity for hemoglobin that carbon dioxide has. Thus, even a small amount can deactivate a significant portion of the oxygen carrying capability of the blood. Hypoxia leads to anoxia and then to death. That is why the treatment for CO poisoning is hyperbaric oxygen. You need to supersaturate the remaining active hemoglobin with oxygen so that the victim will survive until the shut-down hemoglobin is taken out of the system.
Wilkey
This is a similar phenomenon to carbon monoxide poisoning. CO has at least one thousand times the affinity for hemoglobin that carbon dioxide has. Thus, even a small amount can deactivate a significant portion of the oxygen carrying capability of the blood. Hypoxia leads to anoxia and then to death. That is why the treatment for CO poisoning is hyperbaric oxygen. You need to supersaturate the remaining active hemoglobin with oxygen so that the victim will survive until the shut-down hemoglobin is taken out of the system.
Wilkey
As someone holding a college degree, I recognize your post as English. But apart from that....
No, I do (dimly) follow what you are saying. I know hyperbaric chambers are supposed to increase the blood flow or something to that effect. But is there a difference between pure oxygen and hyperbaric oxygen in the treatment of CO poisoning?
No, I do (dimly) follow what you are saying. I know hyperbaric chambers are supposed to increase the blood flow or something to that effect. But is there a difference between pure oxygen and hyperbaric oxygen in the treatment of CO poisoning?
Hyperbaric simply means high pressure. Putting the entire person in a hyperbaric chamber, which is like a deep sea diver decompression chamber, allows the increased pressure to drive the oxygen content above what it could be under normal atmospheric pressure.
Wilkey
Wilkey
Aeroscott
the Eternal Pessimist
These links were a good read MMM, notice tho the guy who said he was using low tox anti freeze hasn't posted since 2006, maybe he died from toxic humidor syndrome :sign:
Bsneed51
Habitual Threadjacker!
Wilkey,
Please stop, you're making my head hurt. I thought this was a cigar forum. I hate science, always have. I guess that's why I'm in the finance field (I'm a numbers guy). I come here to get away from things that make me think.
Please stop, you're making my head hurt. I thought this was a cigar forum. I hate science, always have. I guess that's why I'm in the finance field (I'm a numbers guy). I come here to get away from things that make me think.
Antifreeze is ethylene glycol and a lesser amount of di-ethylene glycol. The green color you see is simply a color additive - nothing else.
And Wilkey, you're right about the body's affinity for the by-products of ingestion of toxic materials. Sometimes it's simply a chemical affinity or attraction-- such as the oxygen atom in CO being attracted to the ferrous portion of hemoglobin. In other cases, it's a competetive inhibition issue where the toxic product or by-products chemical structure/shape can inhibit the "normal molecules" from binding.
As a neat fact, the side effects due to ingestion of ethylene glycol (antifreeze) can be prevented by simply drinking ethanol, AKA the stuff that gets you drunk. There is an antidote, but I'm not familiar with it and have never seen it used. The "old fashioned method" is just as effective. Often times when humans, and animals as well, are suspected of drinking ethylene glycol, the patient is simply given quite a bit of ethanol and they get rip-roaring drunk. The ethanol inhibits the diol from doing damage. I work in an ER and I've seen it a dozen or so times -- I can't tell you how funny it is to be have to run to a liquor store on Dr's orders. As a side note, my sister is in vet school and she's had to to give animals Everclear.
It's all chemistry.
Great field. What's your undergrad in, Wilkey?
Edit: Spelling/alcohol -> ethanol correction.
Edit2: Didn't mention -- ya, you're safe smoking them.