Kinder, gentler CP?

[mr.mac]

I think the best way to help reduce commonly asked questions is to simply create a new forum called something like "The Newbie Lounge".

What do you think?

For what it's worth, I think this is a good idea. Like many noobs, I had a lot of the "yada yada" questions as well when I first stumbled onto CigarPass. If fact, I had no clue about cigar boards all together. I was doing some basic google searches on the internet to get some information and CigarPass kept coming up! Plus, there is nothing more uncomfortable than walking into a situation with a bunch of friggin' experts and asking a dumb ass question... even if you didn't think it was a dumb question to begin with. Of course the rules should still apply in the Noob lounge. Its kind of like CP training!

"The Noobie Lounge" has a ring to it also. :thumbs:

mac

 

[SamClemmons]

What's the loss of a newbler or two in the grand scheme of 10,000 members? If someone can't figure out how to conduct themselves, participate and contribute do we really need them here... or want them? Cigarpass is pushing the 10,000 member mark because the system here works. Here we are contemplating a change to accomodate a handful of people at best. Leave the shiff alone you wankers.

NA

 

[Rod]

The fact that CP is not just a message forum changes everything. Unlike some other forums that I post on, CP is about building a reputation with the community. Think of us as a large brotherhood; we discuss cigars plus (a major aspect of what we're all about) we trade cigars. In order to effectively trade cigars, we have to first keep our guard up against any and all new members. We don't know who's out to scam us... Personally, after thinking about it and reading all of these posts, I don't want CP to become just another forum where someone joins, asks a question and leaves. We already have strict rules in place to prevent new members from selling and trading cigars - this keeps the community safe. I want CP to remain a community and not a forum.

While I don't believe we have to bark/bite at new members for screwing up, we can definitely point them in the right direction, make them "earn their keep" (for lack of a better term), and hopefully they'll become an active member in this community. If someone is unwilling to accept the fact that CP is a tight/close community (and not just a forum), then they move on. No way will we win them all. We should continue to focus on only retaining those who want to be part of this community.

I'm still pondering setting up a newbie lounge. It has pros and cons to it. Surely our system is not for everyone. I see people getting ripped off on other cigar forums all the time because the membership is not allowed to protect fellow members (some of you know which forum I'm talking about in particular). The fact that we encourage each other to watch out for one another is what keeps us safe.

Neal brings up a good point... If they're not here to be part of our community and would rather post questions before even trying to find an answer, do we really want them here? Let's nudge them in the right direction; if they follow our advice they'll stay. No need to be rude, innocent mistakes do happen. You can easily nudge someone in the right direction without being abrasive. The newbie lounge can be like the "farm lounge"... Let new members get their feet wet, and if CP is for them, they'll become active in the community.

I'm glad this topic was posted. We have some great dialogue going, and it has made me see things from several angles. We have to stick with the community feel, and not the forum mentality. Perhaps a newbie lounge is worth a try, we can try it and see what happens. If it doesn't work, I can remove it, no big deal.

 

[Rebel Herfer]

Did someone say Boobie Lounge! :love: ... oh :laugh: :laugh: :whistling: Noobie, gotcha, it's just that Boobies make me smile!
In all seriousness:
Wilkey you & Alan have very valid points. There appears to be a solution at hand with a Noobie Lounge with one suggestion, if I may, allow postings without registering. Hear me out - I looked at Professor Wilkey's chart and heard SamClemmons' comment, and I realized there may be nearly 10k members but, how many participating/contributing members do we really have? If we are striving for the most registered members, so be it; if we are trying to foster a functioning community then we can afford to not have so many slacker noobs that never contribute. A non-registered question area (whatever you want to call it) would allow us to show the non-members that we are The Internet's Friendliest Cigar Forum, they can then choose to join and participate.
As to introductions, I believe it should be required; we are a community, not a bulletin board. We are not asking for your life story, just a bit of info as to what has brought you to CP. It IS also the polite thing to do. I for one would never trade, purchase, sell to, or allow in a pass anyone I didn't know anything about and that could give a rip less about the rest of us. Just my $.06!

 

[Rod]

One clarification - if I setup a newbie lounge, they will still have to register and go through the entire validation process. I'm not looking for the most registered users; simply trying to organize things a bit and keep w/ maintaining a community and not a forum.

 

[insight]

Start letting unregistered members post anywhere and watch how quick some trolls of yesteryear come back for a visit.

 

[Rod]

Start letting unregistered members post anywhere and watch how quick some trolls of yesteryear come back for a visit.

Not happening. Everyone must register - guest posting is not an option.

 

[Wurm]

But yesterday there was a question about Port wine, I hadn't responded to one of these in a while so I replied. Then today there is a new thread on almost the exact same subject ...... come on. apparently no one is listening so why should I reply?

Very understandable BUT depending on how one uses the search engine, since the two question were in different forums, there is a good chance that the second person didn't even see the first person's question.

If I narrow my search to just one forum (the wine forum for example) then whats in the parent forum is not going to show up.


And I hate the idea of a newbie forum. We tried it at the forum I'm a moderator at and it just caused way more problems than it fixed.

CP works just the way it is.

 

[JHolmes763]

If someone can't figure out how to conduct themselves, participate and contribute do we really need them here... or want them?

If they truly can't figure that out, then no, they shouldn't be here. I think the discussion here is more about what to do with them at first, before you really know if they'll figure it out or not, though.

No harm in being nice and giving the gentle pushes until they either figure it out or show they need the exit door opened for them. Asshats and real intentions are always found out, regardless.

---John Holmes...

 

[Infinity]

One clarification - if I setup a newbie lounge, they will still have to register and go through the entire validation process. I'm not looking for the most registered users; simply trying to organize things a bit and keep w/ maintaining a community and not a forum.

Rod, I don't think a newbie forum will help, it's a waste of resources IMO.

Neal is right, no question about that. However, I sincerely believe that an automated email, which I know, will still go over some heads, will at least help in the process of acclimating.

Brian

 

[Macion Grey]

I'm as fresh as an ox out the box here, but I think this is a great community that works fine the way it is. Any community, be it online or in the flesh, needs trust between it's members as a solid foundation to build on, I think.

I know coming on and asking a general question without an introduction doesn't seem too bad, but I compare it to walking over to your new neighbours house and asking for some sugar without telling them who you are. There would be either confusion or frustration in that situation: 'Who the hell is this asking me for some sugar?' Imagine how annoying that would be if random people always came to your door asking for sugar without telling you who they are, or why they are asking...

In a very real way, this is a strong community-based forum, and we do need to get to know each other just a little before launching into it.

'Hi, I'm your new neighbour, can I borrow some sugar?'

sounds better then:

'Hi, can I have some sugar?'

 

[Ginseng]

While I don't believe we have to bark/bite at new members for screwing up, we can definitely point them in the right direction, make them "earn their keep" (for lack of a better term), and hopefully they'll become an active member in this community. If someone is unwilling to accept the fact that CP is a tight/close community (and not just a forum), then they move on.

I'm glad this topic was posted. We have some great dialogue going, and it has made me see things from several angles. We have to stick with the community feel, and not the forum mentality. Perhaps a newbie lounge is worth a try, we can try it and see what happens. If it doesn't work, I can remove it, no big deal.

If they truly can't figure that out, then no, they shouldn't be here. I think the discussion here is more about what to do with them at first, before you really know if they'll figure it out or not, though.

As members of this community, it's the easy thing to tell it from our side. We're already insinuated, already validated. And it's only when relatively new members speak up and tell of their experience that we are reminded of what it was like going from the outside in, not years ago but weeks or months ago. We are all in a position of power because we're on the inside guarding the ramparts against heathens and slackers. But there are worthy folks who are neither, who are perhaps more independently minded that are turned off by this "get it or get out" mentality.

Rod, it's easy to stay the course when there's unanimity in the belief that the course is wholly right and just. It's braver yet to say "I will turn the tiller, I'm going to try something and I don't know whether it will fail or succeed but with the unknown brings possibilities." But if you're going to do it, commit to it. Do not enter into it with the expectation that it will fail, else it will. That will be the true tragedy of wasted resources and a path ill-explored.

Start letting unregistered members post anywhere and watch how quick some trolls of yesteryear come back for a visit.

I agree.

And I hate the idea of a newbie forum. We tried it at the forum I'm a moderator at and it just caused way more problems than it fixed.

That's like a ZESN observer on the ground in Zimbabwe saying democracy didn't work there so it shouldn't be tried anywhere else.

With all due respect, Shawn, your statement tells us nothing about why the idea failed at that forum, why it may or may not fail at this forum, or anything about how these two forums are the same or different and what of that might contribute materially to the success or failure of the idea here. We don't even know why you hate it, just that you do.

Like others in this thread, I'm heartened to see such deep discussion. We need more of this.

Wilkey

 

[mrrt]

And why make FOGs do all the work? Over time, it becomes a burden and one that either results in gradual disenchantment and withdrawal from the community or hardening of the spirit into something more cynical than welcoming.

Wilkey

So are we as a growing community approaching the time when there is a need for some Mod's to lighten the burden and let the FOG's get away from the 'posting cop mode', so they can get back to dispensing that knowledge and info that we all need to grow..>>??
(I didnt mean that question to sarcastic or condescending. I truly meant it.)

art

 

[ggiese]

Rod's right on with his observations. The one thing that has ALWAYS separated this board from the others was the idea that this is a community, not a message board. While member moderated, this community has well proven to the overall cigar board world that we have prospered and thrived very well despite the "chicken little" naysayers.

And it seems that those that have been doom and gloom about the way things are here, move on to be contributing members at some of the "better" boards out there. It sure seems to be a perfect fit for them on message boards that have heavy handed moderation and a tolerance for those that don't seem to do well elsewhere. After all - there is value to loving every single member, deleting and/or altering posts, banning "troublemakers" and tolerating a scamming of the board. It's just not my cup of tea...

And why make FOGs do all the work? Over time, it becomes a burden and one that either results in gradual disenchantment and withdrawal from the community or hardening of the spirit into something more cynical than welcoming.

Wilkey

So are we as a growing community approaching the time when there is a need for some Mod's to lighten the burden and let the FOG's get away from the 'posting cop mode', so they can get back to dispensing that knowledge and info that we all need to grow..>>??
(I didnt mean that question to sarcastic or condescending. I truly meant it.)

art

Nope - mods are not the answer...

CAVEAT: My answer was in no way intended, by design or form, to be sarcastic or condescending. I truly meant it.

 

[leafandale]

What's the loss of a newbler or two in the grand scheme of 10,000 members? If someone can't figure out how to conduct themselves, participate and contribute do we really need them here... or want them? Cigarpass is pushing the 10,000 member mark because the system here works. Here we are contemplating a change to accomodate a handful of people at best. Leave the shiff alone you wankers.

NA

It's not to accommodate a handful of people... It's to accommodate EVERY new member to this community. Just look at the members who have posted on this topic alone: Many have well over 1000 posts to their credit. At some time in the past several years, they made their first post as well. You don't grow the community to the size of CP's without NEW members. New members are like new customers, everyone has to be treated like the best customer you have, because one day they might be the best customer you have.

 

[ggiese]

What's the loss of a newbler or two in the grand scheme of 10,000 members? If someone can't figure out how to conduct themselves, participate and contribute do we really need them here... or want them? Cigarpass is pushing the 10,000 member mark because the system here works. Here we are contemplating a change to accomodate a handful of people at best. Leave the shiff alone you wankers.

NA

It's not to accommodate a handful of people... It's to accommodate EVERY new member to this community. Just look at the members who have posted on this topic alone: Many have well over 1000 posts to their credit. At some time in the past several years, they made their first post as well. You don't grow the community to the size of CP's without NEW members. New members are like new customers, everyone has to be treated like the best customer you have, because one day they might be the best customer you have.

Do you mean to tell me that you are as equally welcoming of individuals that walk into your store with the purpose of stealing your merchandise or wrecking your shop - even though they present a very legitimate excuse for doing so??? I mean - after all - somewhere down the road they MAY become a great customer...

Sam (Neal) has seen many a cigar board grow and die with your same philosophy...

Value wisdon - even though you may not agree.

 

[LilBastage]

I remember what it was like when I first signed up here. I knew a little about cigars, but just enough to get me going in the wrong direction. I found other boards, but CP seemed to have the most personality and I could tell by reading the board for a few weeks before I joined that this was a tight knit group that really treated each other well and cared about their online home. That is why I joined. I didn't just want to "search and find," I wanted to discuss things and to follow the guidance of those that went before me.

I had a pretty good hold on most of what I needed to know and on many of the members' personalities before I even signed up. In other words, I got to know CP before I made the commitment to join and it really helped me avoid "newbie mistakes" and all the nonsense that sometimes comes with them.

I know my experience is likely unique, but I thought it would be beneficial to others to know that at least one member was gained and retained by the community that we have here, not simply by the information available.

 

[Bsneed51]

I'm sorry if this is considered off topic, but if Rod does set up a "newbie lounge" how would that work? Would new members only be allowed to post in there until they reach a certain post count, or a certain amount of time? Could they still post in other forums, or only allowed to read them? Would their be a "board" of established members whose duty was to answer questions and offer advice? Would some sections of the board be "off limits" until the newbies graduated from the lounge and into the deep pool? Could a couple of the older members here put together a Frequently Asked Question sticky that is available in that thread to eliminate the obvious questions?

Since this idea of a newbie area was presented yesterday I've been thinking about it alot. The above are just a few of the questions that have popped in my head. As someone who is still a newbie myself I can see a lot of good that could come from a newbie area.
1.) Newbies can get their newbie questions answered without mucking up the other forums, and FOG's don't even have to enter the newbie lounge if they choose to avoid such questions.
2.) Newbies can get a chance to learn to use the forum functions (i.e. search, profile, etc) without cluttering up other areas.
3.) Newbies won't feel intimidated to ask questions and post thoughts. Believe it or not this board can be intimidating at times even to me still. I don't have the knowledge base to feel comfortable offering opinions in threads when guys like Wilkey, Moki, AVB, Sinnyc, Devil Doc, and many, many others are involved in discussions. (I will say that do read most of those discussions, and I have found friendly helped when I have asked, so this is not a knock on you FOGs. You're just intimidating thats all.) :laugh:
4.) It gives established? newbies like myself a place to feel comfortable offering advice to those who are just starting out, so we learn the proper way to help out and nudge newbies in the right direction. You learn from practice.
5.) It gives newbies a place to meet fellow newbies and form trust and friendships with others like themselves. I know that the people on here I interact with the most are the guys I've met in person, and the guys like Napa Smokes, billbaker3, and souldog24ca who joined around the same time I did, and are in the same learning level that I am to the world of cigars.

Rod, I know that an area like this would have been helpful to me when I started a few months ago. I can understand your apprehension to this idea, but I'll be first to volunteer to help out with this in anyway that I can if you would want to give it a test run. However, if you choose not to I can certainly understand that as well.

 

[NullSmurf]

SamClemmons made the best point and he did it with a single sentence and no charts - we're pushing 10K because the system we have works.

If you read the newb's first post, use your head. If he is a chew toy, he'll get some teeth marks. If he's worth a shit, he'll take it and come back. Those who have been around a year or two have seen enough to be able to tell. You don't need six sigma for that! Common sense!

 

[Mike33]

I'll throw in my two cents here:

Bigger doesn't always means better. CP should not be about welcoming and retaining all the members we can; leave that to other boards. CP is able to be selective in taking in new members by asking only they not be total douche bags. It isn't a high standard, but it is far more selective than most boards.

In dealing with new members, I agree that we should not run them off or be rude to them for asking a question that has been answered a million times even if it is their first post. However, if someone is to damn lazy to try looking for their answer for even a little while or too lazy to post an intro first, then they will get no help from me. Likewise, if they are abrupt or rude in how they ask, no help from me. Does that mean we should be rude or condescending to them? Absolutely not, I just merely ignore their post...we are not an encyclopedia at everyone's beck and call, at least I am not. You don't have to post a rude comment to make a point. If others want to help the new guy out, then by all means do so.

It all comes down to treat people as you would want to be treated; no more, no less.