A Cigar Pass Primer / FAQ: Q & A

Mark Twain

Call me Ishmael.
Geez Wilkey, I like to think I'm pretty bright (even though there are quite a few people who will disagree), but that was an excellent and well thought out post that leaves me humbled :blush:
I thought I was the only one. Tell me their names. We need to start a support group. :rolleyes:
 

Ginseng

Banned
Yes. There are NC-only passes. Typically they are introductory passes.

For mixed passes, I think the maxim of "containing the illegality" applies in the sense given in this example. At the beginning there are 12 passers. 6 own Cubans and 6 do not. If one of the 6 is "allowed" to TAKE a Cuban and PUT a non-Cuban, then now there are 7 passers who own illegal goods and the pass was the vehicle that directly made that possible. The pass has now facilitated increasing the number of U.S. citizens who are in violation of the law. I think that in the case of mixed passes, it is the conservative and prudent assumption that not all participants are there to transact in Cubans. We can, however, accept that these participants have signed on to transfer Cuban cigars but not to take final possession.

Of course for this to make sense, I have to also assume that it is "less illegal" to pass on Cuban cigars than to own them. My analysis hinges on this vital assumption that temporary, fleeting possession is less prejudicial than indefinite ownership but I can't speak to the legal opinion regarding this view.

Mike, you raise a relevant point as well, that of value in the personal sense. Exchange value and market value are value in the interpersonal sense and is fodder for discussion. To be quite honest, there are a dozen $5-7 Cubans that I would not trade for $15 NCs. Same reason.

Wilkey
 

badhangover

New Member
I'm gonna add just one more thing here, which is only sorta germane to my introduction of this topic, and then let it RIP.

It is "less illegal" to possess contraband than it is to traffic in contraband. Let's apply this to the topic of illegal drugs. It is illegal to own illegal drugs. That is easily understood. It is "more illegal" (which means, the penalties for doing so are more severe) to transport and/or sell illegal drugs. It's the difference between being an illegal drug user and an illegal drug seller. Sellers get a stronger taste of the law. With that in mind, and coming back to contraband Habanos, it would stand to reason that getting popped for possessing (a reasonable amount of) Habanos would potentially incur milder penalties than to furnish another USA citizen with that same amount of Habanos. By the way, for all intents and purposes, giving a contraband product is the same as selling it - as they are both cases of furnishing a contraband product. Even if it's just to (box) pass it along. Returning to the illegal drug analogy, that would be akin to the "mule" who, while not a seller, helps move the contraband to its next recipient. "Mules" typically receive harsher penalties than end possessers/users.

Thanks for listening and the input. :thumbs:
 

moki

el Presidente
Geez Wilkey, I like to think I'm pretty bright (even though there are quite a few people who will disagree), but that was an excellent and well thought out post that leaves me humbled :blush:

My opinion, right or wrong, is there is a large disparity b/w cuban and non-cuban cigars in terms of cost comparison. I might be able to buy, say a certain cuban lonsdale with 7 years of age on it for roughly $8 a stick. Would I trade it for MOST $20 NCs? Absolutely not. Just because a NC goes for a lot more doesn't make it an equal put in my very humble opinion.

Is that biased against NCs? Sure. Do I care? No. That is simply my opinion and what my feelings are with regards to placing value on NC and cuban cigars.
Really, really, really silly to refer to things as "Cubans" and "non-Cubans" -- there are shit cigars from Cuba I wouldn't pay a plug nickel for... how is lumping them all together in any way useful?

The only useful reason for the designation is as was stated before: legal and non-legal. Anything beyond that is just personal opinion can koolaid.
 

Brickhouse

J.C. Newman owes me royalties.
Really, really, really silly to refer to things as "Cubans" and "non-Cubans" -- there are shit cigars from Cuba I wouldn't pay a plug nickel for... how is lumping them all together in any way useful?

The only useful reason for the designation is as was stated before: legal and non-legal. Anything beyond that is just personal opinion can koolaid.
Easily one of the best statement I've read on CP since I've been a member. So damn true Andrew that text can't begin to express my agreement.
 

Mike33

New Member
Geez Wilkey, I like to think I'm pretty bright (even though there are quite a few people who will disagree), but that was an excellent and well thought out post that leaves me humbled :blush:

My opinion, right or wrong, is there is a large disparity b/w cuban and non-cuban cigars in terms of cost comparison. I might be able to buy, say a certain cuban lonsdale with 7 years of age on it for roughly $8 a stick. Would I trade it for MOST $20 NCs? Absolutely not. Just because a NC goes for a lot more doesn't make it an equal put in my very humble opinion.

Is that biased against NCs? Sure. Do I care? No. That is simply my opinion and what my feelings are with regards to placing value on NC and cuban cigars.
Really, really, really silly to refer to things as "Cubans" and "non-Cubans" -- there are shit cigars from Cuba I wouldn't pay a plug nickel for... how is lumping them all together in any way useful?

The only useful reason for the designation is as was stated before: legal and non-legal. Anything beyond that is just personal opinion can koolaid.
Andrew, I don't know why it is wrong to refer to cigars that come from Cuba as Cuban and those that don't come from Cuba as non-Cuban. It strikes me as more much more silly calling them "legal" or "non-legal" when Cuban cigars are only illegal in the U.S. Would it be a sin to refer to a Dominican cigar as such and all other cigars from other countries as Non-Dominican? I don't think so. It has nothing to do with putting one country ahead of all the others and it has nothing to do with lumping all brands produced in a certain country together. It is a way to classify cigars that has been around long, long before I was born and will probably be used long, long after I am gone so I don't think I would call it silly imho.

There are plenty of Cuban cigars I too would not pay for. My point, which was clearly stated as my personal opinion, is that if I would $5 RASCC over a $11 Opus No.5 any day of the week b/c I feel you get as good if not a better cigar for half the price. Price-wise, premium non-Cuban cigars are generally priced higher over similiar size Cubans. That is what I was trying to convey when I was talking about cost comparision. Dominican, Honduran, Nicaruagan Koolaid is just as prevelant as Cuban Koolaid ;)
 

moki

el Presidente
Andrew, I don't know why it is wrong to refer to cigars that come from Cuba as Cuban and those that don't come from Cuba as non-Cuban. It strikes me as more much more silly calling them "legal" or "non-legal" when Cuban cigars are only illegal in the U.S. Would it be a sin to refer to a Dominican cigar as such and all other cigars from other countries as Non-Dominican? I don't think so. It has nothing to do with putting one country ahead of all the others and it has nothing to do with lumping all brands produced in a certain country together. It is a way to classify cigars that has been around long, long before I was born and will probably be used long, long after I am gone so I don't think I would call it silly imho.

There are plenty of Cuban cigars I too would not pay for. My point, which was clearly stated as my personal opinion, is that if I would $5 RASCC over a $11 Opus No.5 any day of the week b/c I feel you get as good if not a better cigar for half the price. Price-wise, premium non-Cuban cigars are generally priced higher over similiar size Cubans. That is what I was trying to convey when I was talking about cost comparision. Dominican, Honduran, Nicaruagan Koolaid is just as prevelant as Cuban Koolaid ;)
Your cost comparison of "premium non-Cuban cigars" conveniently leaves out tobacco tax, sales tax, and import duties, all of which you avoid by buying your Cuban cigars illegally. It also is an Apples to oranges comparison; try comparing the price of Cohibas or Trinidads to the "premium non-Cuban cigars" and then we're talking.

"Cuban cigar" means a cigar came from Cuba. "Non-Cuban cigar" means the cigar did not come from Cuba. That's it. It says nothing about the quality, the taste, the construction, etc. of the cigar in question. It was also "generally accepted" that no wine out of France was worth anything, until very recently. It's amazing how biases hold.

The problem is many people use these terms as broad-brush pejoratives with really unfortunate insinuations and undertones.

But hey, if you love "Cuban cigars", you're entitled to your bias... and I'm entitled to call you on it.
 

Mike33

New Member
Andrew, I don't know why it is wrong to refer to cigars that come from Cuba as Cuban and those that don't come from Cuba as non-Cuban. It strikes me as more much more silly calling them "legal" or "non-legal" when Cuban cigars are only illegal in the U.S. Would it be a sin to refer to a Dominican cigar as such and all other cigars from other countries as Non-Dominican? I don't think so. It has nothing to do with putting one country ahead of all the others and it has nothing to do with lumping all brands produced in a certain country together. It is a way to classify cigars that has been around long, long before I was born and will probably be used long, long after I am gone so I don't think I would call it silly imho.

There are plenty of Cuban cigars I too would not pay for. My point, which was clearly stated as my personal opinion, is that if I would $5 RASCC over a $11 Opus No.5 any day of the week b/c I feel you get as good if not a better cigar for half the price. Price-wise, premium non-Cuban cigars are generally priced higher over similiar size Cubans. That is what I was trying to convey when I was talking about cost comparision. Dominican, Honduran, Nicaruagan Koolaid is just as prevelant as Cuban Koolaid ;)
Your cost comparison of "premium non-Cuban cigars" conveniently leaves out tobacco tax, sales tax, and import duties, all of which you avoid by buying your Cuban cigars illegally. It also is an Apples to oranges comparison; try comparing the price of Cohibas or Trinidads to the "premium non-Cuban cigars" and then we're talking.

"Cuban cigar" means a cigar came from Cuba. "Non-Cuban cigar" means the cigar did not come from Cuba. That's it. It says nothing about the quality, the taste, the construction, etc. of the cigar in question. It was also "generally accepted" that no wine out of France was worth anything, until very recently. It's amazing how biases hold.

The problem is many people use these terms as broad-brush pejoratives with really unfortunate insinuations and undertones.

But hey, if you love "Cuban cigars", you're entitled to your bias... and I'm entitled to call you on it.
Most countries make cigar dealers pay the tobacco tax when they are imported, so most of the time, you DO pay that tax. Not too many places deduct the tax after you have placed an order. Sales tax is avoided by almost everyone in the U.S. when ordering over the internet, so that argument holds no weight. DO you only buy from B&Ms in your home state? Don't think so. Import duties are the same as tobacco taxes unless bought from a duty-free store/country. I have seen quite a few "Illegal" cigars that you own Andrew, did you buy all of them from duty free places?

So are Cohiba and Trinidad the only premium Cuban brands? Don't think so. Compare top-half price wise Cuban cigars with top-half price-wise non-Cuban and they(N/C) demand a higher price, irregardless of any taxes we avoid paying. Regular line AF cigars in Australia go for the same or more as most Cuban lines, excluding Cohiba. Opus and Padron are much, much more expensive in the U.K. and other countries than Cuban brands. So if you were in one of those countries, based on price, what would you choose?

Your second paragraph is exactly what I said in my post. It is a way of classifying cigars; nothing more or less. I certainly don't have a bias for or against any cigar producing country and don't see how could conjure that up from my post. I know I don't have a trained palate to where I could "blow away" a blind testing and I have said that in a previous thread about this same topic. I could care less what country a freakin' cigar comes from as long as I like it. However, since I don't have unlimited resources, I compare cost-benefit when buying cigars.

I appreciate your efforts to help destroy bias for or against any cigars from certain countries, but if you think I have a bias towards Cubans, I can assure you it is based on cost-benefit and not the cigar itself or the "forbideen fruit" aspect. If you haven't gathered that from my post, then I have nothing more to add.
 

moki

el Presidente
Most countries make cigar dealers pay the tobacco tax when they are imported, so most of the time, you DO pay that tax. Not too many places deduct the tax after you have placed an order. Sales tax is avoided by almost everyone in the U.S. when ordering over the internet, so that argument holds no weight. DO you only buy from B&Ms in your home state? Don't think so. Import duties are the same as tobacco taxes unless bought from a duty-free store/country. I have seen quite a few "Illegal" cigars that you own Andrew, did you buy all of them from duty free places?
The taxes paid on cigars bought at most popular online places is a pittance compared to the tobacco taxes in various places in the USA. You've noted that it is a cost/value proposition for you... and I'm noting at least part of the reason why. Go to Canada, and tell me Cuban cigars are a steal.

So are Cohiba and Trinidad the only premium Cuban brands? Don't think so. Compare top-half price wise Cuban cigars with top-half price-wise non-Cuban and they(N/C) demand a higher price, irregardless of any taxes we avoid paying. Regular line AF cigars in Australia go for the same or more as most Cuban lines, excluding Cohiba. Opus and Padron are much, much more expensive in the U.K. and other countries than Cuban brands. So if you were in one of those countries, based on price, what would you choose?
Yes, but you're confusing the issue; there's a reason why AF cigars are very high priced outside of the USA. They really don't care if they sell any. They are simply maintaining their brand.

In the comparison above, if you're comparing MSRP to MSRP, then it would be fairly competitive either way, despite the lower costs of labor in Cuba,

I appreciate your efforts to help destroy bias for or against any cigars from certain countries, but if you think I have a bias towards Cubans, I can assure you it is based on cost-benefit and not the cigar itself or the "forbideen fruit" aspect. If you haven't gathered that from my post, then I have nothing more to add.
Funny, that's not what I've gotten out of your posts at all (in this thread as well). Care to put that theory to the test, then?
 

Mike33

New Member
Funny, that's not what I've gotten out of your posts at all (in this thread as well). Care to put that theory to the test, then?
If that is what you think, then you either can't read or are only reading that which supports your own view. What I have gotten out of your posts is that you think everyone who enjoys certain Cuban cigars doesn't know the difference between a Cuban and non-Cuban cigar and those who find they like certain Cuban brands, well you seem like you have some sort of contempt for them for reasons I don't grasp. All my post have said is I enjoy certain Cuban cigars because they cost me less and are as good or better than comparable non-Cubans. Have I committed a sin by stating my personal preference?

I don't know what this "theory" is as I have not offered one, but feel free to explain it to me. My guess is some kind of blind-taste test, yes? It is starting to seem that you have some sort of a bias against persons who prefer Cuban brands to non-Cuban brands.
 

moki

el Presidente
Funny, that's not what I've gotten out of your posts at all (in this thread as well). Care to put that theory to the test, then?
If that is what you think, then you either can't read or are only reading that which supports your own view. What I have gotten out of your posts is that you think everyone who enjoys certain Cuban cigars doesn't know the difference between a Cuban and non-Cuban cigar and those who find they like certain Cuban brands, well you seem like you have some sort of contempt for them for reasons I don't grasp. All my post have said is I enjoy certain Cuban cigars because they cost me less and are as good or better than comparable non-Cubans. Have I committed a sin by stating my personal preference?
Not at all -- as I stated in the original post, it's either personal preference (as you state) or koolaid. Since you agree with me regarding the former, I don't see the problem.

My contempt is for people who differentiate cigars by Cuban/non-Cuban, simply because it is a worthless designation. If there are particular marcas that you enjoy, and you don't talk about the taste of "Cuban cigars" or "Cuban cigars vs. N/C cigars", then I have no issue with you, because you're not prone to the sloppy and useless generalizations that I'm discussing.

I don't know what this "theory" is as I have not offered one, but feel free to explain it to me. My guess is some kind of blind-taste test, yes? It is starting to seem that you have some sort of a bias against persons who prefer Cuban brands to non-Cuban brands.
Then you clearly misunderstand me. Sure, since you state that you prefer "Cuban cigars", let's do a blind taste testing to see if you can determine which cigars are Cuban in origin, and which are not. If you can't, then you can throw your preference for "Cuban cigars" out of the window.
 

Mike33

New Member
Funny, that's not what I've gotten out of your posts at all (in this thread as well). Care to put that theory to the test, then?
If that is what you think, then you either can't read or are only reading that which supports your own view. What I have gotten out of your posts is that you think everyone who enjoys certain Cuban cigars doesn't know the difference between a Cuban and non-Cuban cigar and those who find they like certain Cuban brands, well you seem like you have some sort of contempt for them for reasons I don't grasp. All my post have said is I enjoy certain Cuban cigars because they cost me less and are as good or better than comparable non-Cubans. Have I committed a sin by stating my personal preference?
Not at all -- as I stated in the original post, it's either personal preference (as you state) or koolaid. Since you agree with me regarding the former, I don't see the problem.

My contempt is for people who differentiate cigars by Cuban/non-Cuban, simply because it is a worthless designation. If there are particular marcas that you enjoy, and you don't talk about the taste of "Cuban cigars" or "Cuban cigars vs. N/C cigars", then I have no issue with you, because you're not prone to the sloppy and useless generalizations that I'm discussing.

I don't know what this "theory" is as I have not offered one, but feel free to explain it to me. My guess is some kind of blind-taste test, yes? It is starting to seem that you have some sort of a bias against persons who prefer Cuban brands to non-Cuban brands.
Then you clearly misunderstand me. Sure, since you state that you prefer "Cuban cigars", let's do a blind taste testing to see if you can determine which cigars are Cuban in origin, and which are not. If you can't, then you can throw your preference for "Cuban cigars" out of the window.
See link in post #32.

I honestly don't know what we are disagreeing about then. I don't know what a Cuban cigar tastes like (See post #32). I would do terrible at a blind taste test (See post #32).

You don't like people using the whole Cuban/NC designations. That's fine with me, but the vast majority of the cigar world uses this so I have no problem with it.
 

moki

el Presidente
I honestly don't know what we are disagreeing about then. I don't know what a Cuban cigar tastes like (See post #32). I would do terrible at a blind taste test (See post #32).
Alright, I apologize for misinterpreting your statements, and latching on then.
 

sloe_dancer

New Member
There are so many exceedingly good points in this thread that I believe will help answer a large number of pass questions. I think there may be a benefit in discussing the Cuban for N/C rule. It makes perfect sense to me and should be obvious to everyone why it’s in place, but I think there are some situations and circumstances that occur where the rules don’t apply because of the rarity of the cigar.

Some N/C and Cuban special release or limited run cigars can be, and often are equally rare IMO.

Hi

Newbee to the "Pass"--
I was late in life to try Cigars. I started in Columbia. I didn't know one brand from another. I was in US Navy. The whole Time I was in Navy -- Going Port To Port- I smoked The "Cubans". Now That I'm home I smoke N/C. I have not met many who claim they can taste the difference between the two in terms of quality and appeal. Many times The real "Appeal" of cubans for U.S. smokers is the Rarety and Illegal status of the Cubans.

I personally like a good Dom Rep as well as the Cubans. I compared them side by side many a day.

In conclusion this is a style argument. Which is better? Tide or a lesser brand? Depends. I don't have "Ground in stains on my clothes". Does it matter which "Brand " I use.? No I don't need Tide. Would it impress my neighbors? probably.
The joy of a cigar is to be enjoyed in the present. Therefore, if you percieve that a cuban is better than my Dom Rep etc that becomes an opinion. I would be more comfy in a pass with guys who had a specific opinion on the cigars in question.
My goal is to enjoy as many Quality cigars as I can.

Any feedback will be accepted.

Sorry to have such a strong statement as my first post.-- again just an opinion.

Enjoy.

Sloe_Dancer
 

kohnhed

New Member
I'm a new member.
I would love to participate in a cigar pass. This will be my first time.
I've smoked cigars since I was a teenager thanks to my dad and grandfather, but only started smoking super premiums in the last 8 years or so.
I can make valuable contributions and look forward to the comraderie of the process.
I am in Milwaukee, having recently moved from Chicago. Born and raised in Southern Cal.
I have been visiting Sacramento over the last 3 months because of a project there and have become a loyal patron of Tower Pipes and Cigars. A top of the line joint. The Just family are one of a kind.
I can be reached at phillipkohn@aol.com.

Phil Kohn
 
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