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Aging Cigars

Juanote

The sound of one hand fapping
Joined
Apr 5, 2013
Messages
817
According to Min Ron Nee (combined with a few other sources), Habanos have 4 stages of aging:

1. Sick period - release of ammonia (30 days - 1 year)
2. First maturation - maximized flavor & loss of bitter / harsh flavors (mild: 2-5 years, medium: 5-8 years, full: 7-15 years)
3. Second maturation - increased complexity (15-25 years) though somewhat diminished flavor
4. Third maturation - "finesse" (20 years +), sublime transformation of flavor & textures

Strength is associated with heightened benefits of aging. Mild cigars are not believed to benefit much from aging past first maturation, while some medium-full cigars can continue to improve for decades.

I am wondering about people's thoughts on how these guidelines could apply to NCs, especially with the release of so many outstanding marcas in recent years (the majority in the medium-full spectrum). Most would probably agree that Opus for example ought to improve for decades like the finest Cubans. The same does not seem to be believed about the premium Padron lines (anyone had a different experience here?). With the many quality full bodied NCs out there today, what marcas and lines do you think could be worth aging for 20 years or longer? Since we are past the 20 year mark of some famous premium NC ORs, has anyone experienced super aged premium NC lines that have hit another level entirely?

I appreciate anyone who wants to share their experiences or thoughts about aging CCs or NCs.
 
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Given the way CC tobacco is treated now, there's solid debate if the list you have still applies.  Will CC's still age like they have in the past, or will they turn into 'air cigars'...??  The jury's still out on that one.  But the process change is also why you read more and more  "...really smoking good right out of the box..." comments on CC's now.  By and large, the 2014's I've come across are smoking great.  Like, plow through the box great, in some cases...... :thumbs:
 
I've had ten year old Padron's that tasted like 'air cigars'....literally no flavor, smoked like they weren't even there.  They weren't bad, they were just MIA.  I've had ten year old Anejo's that smoked brilliantly, showing that age had done wonderful things to them.  I've had ten year old OpusX's that I thought were air cigars that a friend said were the best cigars he'd ever smoked.  Guess there's no accounting for taste.... :p
 
Bottom line for me is that I think it's very cigar dependant, and that crosses the CC and NC lines.  Some really benefit from age, some not so much.  With no disrespect to Min Ron Nee, I think ageing any cigar more than ten years gets you into 'who knows' land.  You may have treasure, but you may have cigars that are long past their pull date.  I think the only way to know for sure is if there's a marca you really like, get two or three boxes and smoke one every six months or so.  Then you'll know for sure what's going on.
 
diapanos said:
I just can't imagine me keeping cigars for 20+ years with out smoking them......
 
If you have a couple dozen sticks, I'd agree.  But, the guys that play this game have tens, maybe hundreds (thousands) of boxes set aside.  They look at guys that have a couple dozen boxes set aside and snicker...... ;)
 
I have a ton of aged NC's. Not by design of course, but as the hobby, passion, obsession grows, so does one's inventory. My personal experience (and by no way shape or form an expert) in the field has been the stronger Dominicans specifically stuff from Litto ages pretty well. Padron regualr ( thousands?) start to lose flavor after 6 or so years (all I have are maduros so no idea if it holds true for naturals). Other Nicaraguans ie Pepin and Tats went from awesome fresh (under 2 years) to pretty good at 5+ years. Like I said though, this is my own very subjective experience.
 
I also heard ( no idea where so can't attest to its validity), that CC's pretty much get released with little to no down time wheras NCs would get aged by the producer before being boxed and sold. So it's not so much that NCs have a different maturation schedule so much as the first part is taken care of in house so the consumer (us) never really have to deal with it.
 
billytpage said:
I have a ton of aged NC's. Not by design of course, but as the hobby, passion, obsession grows, so does one's inventory. My personal experience (and by no way shape or form an expert) in the field has been the stronger Dominicans specifically stuff from Litto ages pretty well. Padron regualr ( thousands?) start to lose flavor after 6 or so years (all I have are maduros so no idea if it holds true for naturals). Other Nicaraguans ie Pepin and Tats went from awesome fresh (under 2 years) to pretty good at 5+ years. Like I said though, this is my own very subjective experience.
 
I also heard ( no idea where so can't attest to its validity), that CC's pretty much get released with little to no down time wheras NCs would get aged by the producer before being boxed and sold. So it's not so much that NCs have a different maturation schedule so much as the first part is taken care of in house so the consumer (us) never really have to deal with it.
 
Agree on the effects of aging, but I do have some OR Tatuaje releases that have several years on them, that are smoking unbelievably well right now.  I'm savoring them as I'm quite sure there's no way to replace them.  The current crop just doesn't seem to 'have it' like the originals did.  I still believe that some sticks age nicely, some don't really benefit past a relatively short time.  My opinion there.
 
The tobacco in Padron smokes is nicely aged when you get them, so the benefits of down time are questionable.  I enjoy Padron, but as you say, it only takes a few years before they really 'go away' in terms of flavor.  If you buy a box of Padron sticks, I'd say smoke 'em.  Again, my opinion.
 
Lastly, CC's were rolled pretty fresh in the past, but my understanding is when Habanos SA addressed the quality issues that were so prevalent in the 2000-ish time frame, they also changed how the tobacco is processed.  I've heard from a couple sources that they now steam cure the leaf, which accelerates the aging processes in the leaf pretty dramatically.  If I can find a link, I'll post it.
 
From my limited experience, CC's age better than NC in general. There are a few very good NC's I've had with age that have been mostly fuentes. I would say somewhere around 2013-2014 CC production/aging/crop production changed. No I don't mean that non Cuban tobacco is being used either. I don't buy that. It seems that there have been many great fresh cigar marcas/vitolas recently. Personally, though the por larranaga Robustos de larranaga 2007 RE Is smoking great with age, I rather preferred and enjoyed the youthful acidity/cherry like note they had once. Similar to a fresh romeo y julieta wide churchill has going for it now young. Do I prefer fresh vs aged? I'll smoke it either way and enjoy what it has to offer.
 
BlindedByScience said:
I have a ton of aged NC's. Not by design of course, but as the hobby, passion, obsession grows, so does one's inventory. My personal experience (and by no way shape or form an expert) in the field has been the stronger Dominicans specifically stuff from Litto ages pretty well. Padron regualr ( thousands?) start to lose flavor after 6 or so years (all I have are maduros so no idea if it holds true for naturals). Other Nicaraguans ie Pepin and Tats went from awesome fresh (under 2 years) to pretty good at 5+ years. Like I said though, this is my own very subjective experience.
 
I also heard ( no idea where so can't attest to its validity), that CC's pretty much get released with little to no down time wheras NCs would get aged by the producer before being boxed and sold. So it's not so much that NCs have a different maturation schedule so much as the first part is taken care of in house so the consumer (us) never really have to deal with it.
 
Agree on the effects of aging, but I do have some OR Tatuaje releases that have several years on them, that are smoking unbelievably well right now.  I'm savoring them as I'm quite sure there's no way to replace them.  The current crop just doesn't seem to 'have it' like the originals did.  I still believe that some sticks age nicely, some don't really benefit past a relatively short time.  My opinion there.
 
The tobacco in Padron smokes is nicely aged when you get them, so the benefits of down time are questionable.  I enjoy Padron, but as you say, it only takes a few years before they really 'go away' in terms of flavor.  If you buy a box of Padron sticks, I'd say smoke 'em.  Again, my opinion.
 
Lastly, CC's were rolled pretty fresh in the past, but my understanding is when Habanos SA addressed the quality issues that were so prevalent in the 2000-ish time frame, they also changed how the tobacco is processed.  I've heard from a couple sources that they now steam cure the leaf, which accelerates the aging processes in the leaf pretty dramatically.  If I can find a link, I'll post it.
Steam cure? Wow, wonder what the long term effects of that will be. I've also seen speculations that they are using less ligero in their blends now, which is alleged to be the backbone of long term aging. So maybe the whole program is out the window.
 
Juanote said:
 
Steam cure? Wow, wonder what the long term effects of that will be. I've also seen speculations that they are using less ligero in their blends now, which is alleged to be the backbone of long term aging. So maybe the whole program is out the window.
 
 
Much discussion along those lines.  Not sure if it means long term aging isn't required, or if it means long term aging doesn't buy you anything.  Much debate in the industry.
 
 

CMontoya79 said:
........No I don't mean that non Cuban tobacco is being used either. I don't buy that. It seems that there have been many great fresh cigar marcas/vitolas recently......
 
Buy it or not, it's pretty obvious that supply of CC's coming off the island far, far exceed the capacity of their domestic tobacco farms after all the hurricanes and crop loss they've had over the last few years.  That tobacco has to come from somewhere.  We also know that wrapper, binder, and filler, pretty much in that order, are what gives a cigar it's taste.  I'd suspect that a careful blender could substitute some binder and much of the filler with little impact to the overall blend or taste.
 
So perhaps only Johnny O's will still age along the lines of Min Ron Nee.


Or do I have that wrong.
 
Depends how the leaf they are using is aged.
 
And, to be clear, just because the CC tobacco process has changed, it doesn't mean they won't benefit from aging, but it's a bit of an unknown at this point.  I suppose one of three things are possible;
 
  • They will age pretty much like they always have, though their 'out of the box' taste will be greatly improved by the new processing.
  • They will age short term (3-5 years), no real gains long term (5+ years).
  • They will age short term, and fade long term into 'air' smokes.
Lots of guesses in the CC forums, but no one really knows.  That will take, oh, about 3-5 years...... ;)
 
Juanote said:
So perhaps only Johnny O's will still age along the lines of Min Ron Nee.


Or do I have that wrong.
I haven't had many hundreds of Johnny O's but the ones I have had and smoked as soon I received them do have that young taste and letting them sit really helps with that.  It's hard for me to hold on to them for more than a year without smoking, so I don't know about any period longer than that.  So I think you may be right about the JO's. 
 
BlindedByScience said:
I've had ten year old OpusX's that I thought were air cigars that a friend said were the best cigars he'd ever smoked.  Guess there's no accounting for taste.... :p
Hey! I resemble that comment!

Feel free to send me your whole stash of well aged Opus "air" cigars. :p
 
Could it be that aged NC "air smokes" are actually sticks going through second maturation? Has anyone experienced an NC that reached third maturation?

I guess what I'm really asking is, has anyone smoked an OR Opus or Padron '64 lately, and what was their impression?
 
Once they 'go away' in terms of lack of flavor due to age, I've never had one 'turn around' and come back.
 
I had a twenty year old Partigas Black Label recently that tasted like dog shit.. but then again... it was covered in dog shit...
 
pulse746 said:
I had a padron 64 Maduro recently that tasted like warm air
OR?
sorry for not clarifying, it had about one year on it. Not close to an original release at all.

Thanks. I suspect that very few NCs will age in the four stage Cuban style described in MRN. I think the best candidates are Opus, possibly some Pepin smokes, some LFDs, and premium Nicaraguans. I'm curious though how much ligero is in your typical Nicaraguan puro? Since Nicaraguan tobacco is stronger overall than Cuban, I wonder if they use less ligero in the blend, since ligero is supposed to be the backbone of long term aging. It also introduces another question, which is whether a cigar could be developed that would be virtually unsmokeable in its first 5+ years but that would develop extremely favorable characteristics in third maturation? Probably an idle speculation anyway, who has that kind of time.
 
If the cigar was sold with the first five years of age on it already, I'm sure lots of people would pay a premium for it and age it further. But being virtually unsmokable at the beginning would make it tough to sell.
 
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