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Combating The Anti-Cigar Alarm Sounders

McPatrickClan

McPatrickClan
Joined
May 22, 2002
Messages
562
I hope I am not breaking some unwritten rule here.

I have recently stepped up my cigar use and am enjoying it wholeheartedly. Due to financial constraints, I am smoking no more than five cigars a week, but I would love to smoke more. I keep a humidor and am visiting my favorite cigar shop on a weekly basis (I see what you guys mean when you say I will need a bigger humidor!). Since my "upgrade" in life, many people have attempted to convince me that:

*Cigars will end my life early in a violent way (i.e. cancer, etc.).

I'm not stupid enough to think that smoke is equal to eating an apple in the health department, but I did do a bit of research to find out if what people say is valid.

I found that any problems related to smoking were almost always the direct result of very heavy use (in my book). We're talking about 20+ cigars per week. To me, that's more than I could smoke unless I was on vacation. I simply don't have the time. The studies referred to people like Winston Churchill or Mike Ditka, guys who might break the 35 cigar barrier on a strong week. I spoke to a doctor of an unrelated field about this and she smoked on a daily basis. She described cigar and pipe smoking as the least harmful of all legalized substances (alcohol, tobacco, etc.) since the exposure is limited, usually to your mouth. I am assuming that most posters here do not inhale.

I wonder, what information do you pass to the anti-cigar nazis who try to convince you that cigar smoking is one of the devil's tools?
 
I find lighting a cigar and walking around yelling " leper Leper" clears them all out of your way pretty fast.....

:p

On a more serious note I say " really? That never occurred to me... Where has your research come from? Do you know of 10 people who died violent early deaths from cigars? "

When I get that blank look I say " thanks for that research though. I will think seriously about it." I have never had one approach me 2X.

;)
 
Interesting thought.....

I have read about folks that smoked cigars daily and lived a very full life. Mark Twain, Thomas Edison, and others.

I don't really smoke them much in public but I hear enough from my family to make up for that! LOL

Not many cigar-friendly restaurants or bars here in Richmond as it tends people tend to be ultra conservative. :D
 
Try California Leebo... We have 1 cigar drinking establishment in the nearest 4 cities and of course NO restaurants since it is illegal here to smoke anything in a place the serves food. :sneaky:
 
Well, if I ever win the lotto, I'll open one myself, damnit! :lookup:
 
Hell if you win the Lotto dont go halfway... open a tobacconist shop that has a BAR in it LOL :D :D :D
 
I believe Mark Twain smoked something like 30-35 cigars a day when he wrote. He smoked non-stop and lived to 83 or so.

Personally, I haven't had the pleasure of someone coming up to me and asking me if I knew it'd kill me, but I figure I'd just say something along the lines of, "Thanks, but I have a problem with people that can't stay the hell out of others lives, and I may have to screech like a banshee to scare you away, so I'm guessing you'll be leaving now" heh

Seriously though? My grandfather smoked from the age of 14 and lived until he was 94. If someone asked me if I knew smoking was bad for me, I'd just say no and walk away. I have no tolerance for stupidity, and most of the smoke nazi's are pretty stupid when it comes right down to it, like someone said earlier, if you ask them if they knew anyone that died from smoking cigars, 10 out of 10 will most likely say no, or give you the deer in headlights look.

Even if it was the cause of cancers, I'd still smoke them. I enjoy it, and you only live once I think, so I'm going to enjoy the hell out of it. Nice bigass steak, a glass of red wine, a scotch and a cigar. Now that's one hell of an evening. Even if I can't do it in a restaurant anymore.
 
Firestorm said:
Try California Leebo... We have 1 cigar drinking establishment in the nearest 4 cities and of course NO restaurants since it is illegal here to smoke anything in a place the serves food. :sneaky:
Firestorm, there's this little cigar shop in Lodi on the main street there, can't remember the name, but the guy added a cigar lounge. Hopefully he's still there and you can go enjoy a smoke over there.
 
Tony... now THAT I did not know. Lodi is just a bit above my normal hangs, but it is closer than Modesto, so I am on my way.

heh and let me know when we can eat that bigass steak, glass of wine and light up. I am WAAAAY game. Unfortunately I only get out your way once a year for 10 days, and that is in New Hampshire/ Mass, which is still a couple days of walking away! :D
 
Well looky what I found in the dastardly depths of my wallet....

Fred's Puff & Stuff
228 W. Pine St.
Lodi, CA
95240
209-334-1088


There you go Firestorm. I can't believe I still had the card. :)
 
well, the big difference between now and clemens' time is that we use man-made fertilizers to grow tobacco. this stuff happens to be radioactive. i've known this for awhile, i grew up in a farming community right next to a nuclear power plant and our h.s. physics teacher used to love to tell all the farm kids that their dad's fertilizer was glowing, haha. (so i kind of support using manure as fertilizer instead) anyway, here's an article that goes into a lot more detail about it:


Radioactive Tobacco

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Radiologic Technology]
[Northern Light Technology LLC]
-------------------------------------------------

Source: Radiologic Technology
Date: 01-02/1996
Document ID: LW19971007060004181
Subject(s): Tobacco--Physiological
aspects; Carcinogenicity
testing--Analysis;
Carcinogens--Physiological
aspects
Citation Information: (v67 n3) Start Page:
p217(6) ISSN: 0033-8397
Author(s): Kilthau, Gustave F.
-------------------------------------------------


[Radiologic Technology]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cancer risk in relation to radioactivity in tobacco.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Leaf tobacco contains minute amounts of lead 210 (210Pb) and polonium
210 (210Po) both of which are radioactive carcinogens and both of
which can be found in smoke from burning tobacco. Tobacco smoke also
contains carcinogens that are nonradioactive.

People who inhale tobacco smoke are exposed to higher concentrations of
radioactivity than nonsmokers. Deposits of 210Pb and alpha
particle-emitting 210Po form in the lungs of smokers, generating
localized radiation doses for greater than the radiation exposures humans
experience from natural sources. This radiation exposure, delivered 'to'
sensitive tissues for long periods of time, may induce cancer both alone
and synergistically with nonradioactive carcinogens.

This article explores the relationship between the radioactive and
nonradioactive carcinogens in leaf tobacco and tobacco smoke and the risk
of cancer in those who inhale tobacco smoke.

Almost all externally-induced cancer in humans is reported to be caused by
cigarette smoking, alcohol and some foods.[1] In the 1960s it was reported
that leaf tobacco and tobacco smoke contained radioactivity,[2-6] and it
was noted that people who inhale tobacco smoke retain smoke-borne
radioisotopes in their lungs.[2,4,6]

Leaf tobacco contains minute quantities of radioactive isotopes that pose a
radiation exposure hazard to those who intentionally or passively inhale
tobacco smoke. This article reviews scientific literature documenting
radioactivity in leaf tobacco, radioactivity in tobacco smoke, the
concentrations of radioactivity on and within the tissues of those who
inhale tobacco smoke, the radiation doses to organs and tissues, and the
significance of these exposures toward cancer initiation in those who
inhale the smoke. Because synergistic effects toward cancer initiation
exist between smoke-borne radioactivity and inhaled nonradioactive
carcinogens, the article also discusses some of the nonradioactive
carcinogens in tobacco.

Discussion

Identification of 210Pb and 210Po

In Tobacco Smoke and in Smokers

In the 1960s, investigators reported that lead 210 (210Pb) and
polonium 210 (210Po) are present in both gaseous and particulate
phases of tobacco smoke.[2-4] Both radioisotopes descend from radium 226
and its decay product, radon 222. Lead 210 decays by beta particle emission
to bismuth 210, which then decays by beta particle emission to 210Po.
Polonium 210 emits high energy alpha particles (5.3 million eV) and gamma
radiation (550,000 eV) when it decays, becoming stable lead 206.[7,8]

Tar in tobacco smoke traps 210Po on lung epithelium, particularly at
the bifurcations of peripheral bronchioles, leading to very significant
localized radiation doses.[2,4] It also was reported[2] that as low as 36
rem exposure to bronchial epithelium of a smoker during 25 years of smoking
is significant to the induction of lung cancer due to the coincidental
presence of nonradioactive carcinogens in the smoke.

Some investigators[4] believe the quantities of nonradioactive carcinogens
in tobacco smoke are too small, by themselves, to generate the lung cancer
rates caused by smoking. Supporting this belief, it has been shown[2,5]
that the urine of smokers contains about six times more 210Po than
the urine of nonsmokers, and that the rate of bladder cancer among smokers
increases in relationship to how much they smoke. Nonradioactive
carcinogens in tobacco tar are not found in the urine of smokers, no matter
how heavily they smoke.[5]

210Pb and 210Po in Leaf Tobacco

The amount of 210Pb and 210Po radioactivity in leaf tobacco is
minute per gram of tobacco. This low concentration of radioisotopes,
however, can accumulate into significant concentrations in and on the
tissues of those who inhale the smoke from burning tobacco.

Tobacco plants absorb 210Pb and 210Po from the soils in which
they grow.[9-13] In addition, tobacco plants gather naturally present radon
222 descendants from the surrounding air.[14,15] Tobacco leaves have sticky
trichomes, or "hairs," on both sides.[9,14] Radon daughter products collect
on aerosols in the atmosphere which, in turn, are captured on the sticky
surfaces of the trichomes. This provides an additional concentration of
210Pb on leaf surfaces beyond its concentration within the whole
leaf.[14] It has been shown[16] that tobacco leaf trichomes capture
atmospheric aerosols, polymerize with them in the heat of burning tobacco
and are present in that form in cigarette smoke.

The 210Po content of tobacco from several countries has been
measured. One report[17] on the radioactivity of tobacco grown in India
indicated that a single Indian-grown tobacco cigarette had a 210Po
complement of up to 0.4 pCi. Another group from India[13] found a great
difference between the 210Po content of Indian-grown tobacco and
tobacco from the United States. The 210Po in Indian tobacco averaged
0.09 pCi per gram, whereas the 210Po in tobacco grown in the United
States averaged 0.516 pCi per gram--about 5 1/2 times as much
radioactivity.

Although such sizable differences in radioactivity concentration in leaf
tobacco may be related to variations in natural fallout, natural soil
radioactivity or absorption differences due to soil pH, another factor may
be responsible. It has been noted[9,19] that modern tobacco farming takes
advantage of special fertilization methods, and that tobacco leaf grown in
soil with low nitrogen levels is "more flavorful" than tobacco leaf grown
in soils high in nitrogen.

To grow this quality of tobacco, farmers in "developed" countries such as
the United States usually fertilize their tobacco fields with chemically
manufactured fertilizer high in phosphate content. Tobacco farmers in
poorer countries do not. The phosphate portion of this fertilizer is made
from a rock mineral, apatite, that is ground to powder, dissolved in acid
and further processed (personal communication, Mobil Mining and Minerals,
Houston, Texas, 1995). Apatite rock contains radium and its many descendant
radioisotopes, including both radioactive lead and polonium.(210Po)
When this type of fertilizer is spread onto tobacco fields year after year,
soil nitrogen is depleted, providing a "more flavorful" smoking tobacco.
The higher the phosphate level of the fertilizer used, the higher the
concentration of 210Pb and 210Po in the tobacco leaves.[19]

A measurement of the 210Po content of mainstream cigarette smoke from
U.S.-grown tobacco is reported to be 0.0263 pCi per cigarette;[20] which is
about 0.1 pCi per milligram of smoke. Other investigators[14] have measured
the 210Po concentration in the mainstream tobacco smoke of one
cigarette as approximately 0.036 pCi, with a corresponding measurement of
0.81 pCi of 210Pb per gram of dry condensate derived from the whole
smoke.

The filtration of mainstream tobacco smoke by ordinary commercial cigarette
filters has a negligible effect on the concentration of radioactivity in
the smoke inhaled into the lungs of smokers.[2,6,19,20] It has been
estimated that the intake of 210Po by a typical smoker is about 0.72
pCi per pack of 20 cigarettes.[21] In another study,[14] it was noted that
210Pb specific activities of 100 pCi per milligram of pyrolized
glandular heads of tobacco leaf trichomes in tobacco smoke often are
reached or exceeded.

It also has been reported[14] that radioactive lead and polonium are
adsorbed onto tobacco smoke particles vented into room air from burning
tobacco, where they remain suspended and available until inhaled as
"secondhand" smoke by anyone present in the room.

Concentrations of 210Pb and 210Po

In the Bodies of Those Who Inhale Tobacco Smoke

Compared to nonsmokers, heavy smokers essentially have four times greater
radioisotope density throughout their lungs.[21] It has been estimated[22]
that the 210Po content of blood in smokers averages 1.72 pCi per
kilogram and, in nonsmokers, 0.76 pCi per kilogram. Concentrations of
210Pb and 210Po in rib bones and alveolar lung tissue were
found to be twice as high in ax-smokers as in nonsmokers, even a year after
cessation of smoking.[21]

In smokers, the concentration of 210Po directly on epithelial tissue
at segmental bifurcations of bronchioles is two orders of magnitude greater
(i.e., 100 times greater) than is its concentration overall within their
lungs,[23] which already is four times higher in heavy smokers than it is
in nonsmokers.[21] Other investigators[24] found that the lungs, blood and
livers of smokers contained significantly more 210Po than did those
of nonsmokers.

Dosage from the Radioactivity

From Inhaled Tobacco Smoke

Polonium 210 emits alpha particles upon its decay. Alpha particles have
penetrations limited to about 40 microns or less in animal tissue,[8,25,26]
the aggregate diameter of only several typical cells. Alpha particle
radiation has a very destructive effect on animal tissue because virtually
all of its very high ionizing energy is expended within the tissue. Due to
its double positive charge, limited range in tissue and enormously high
energy, an alpha particle can produce huge numbers of ion pairs in
substances with which it interacts. For example, 20,000 ion pairs can be
produced per alpha particle per centimeter path length in air.[8] DNA
chromosome damage by alpha particle radiation is much greater, by 100
times, than by exposure of DNA to other types of radiation.[19]

The radiation dose from 210Po alpha particle radiation has been
measured as 82.5 millirads per day for heavy smokers.[27] Extrapolating
this measurement, doses of 30.1 rads per year and 752.5 rads per 25 years
of smoking two packs of cigarettes per day are calculated. Such a radiation
exposure dose rate is about 150 times higher than the approximately 5
rem([dagger]) per 25 years received from natural background radiation
sources.[2] Interestingly, many of the lung cancers contracted by cigarette
smokers are adenocarcinomas, a type of lung cancer that can be caused by
alpha particle radiation from 210Po.[19]

In localized areas of tissue that surround deposits of insoluble
210Pb particles, the dose rate from 210Po alpha particle
radiation can be from 100 to 10,000 times that of natural background
radiation sources.[19] The "low-polonium" tobacco grown in India provides
its users with a lung burden of about 24 millirads a day[13]--or 219 rads
during 25 years of smoking. This is about 40 times the exposure rate from
natural background radiation inhaled from the earth's atmosphere.[2] Other
researchers[2,4,14,26,28] have estimated that a range of dose rates from
210Po alpha particle exposure of lung epithelial tissue in smokers is
from 165 rem to 1000 rem over a period of 25 years.

Carcinogenicity of Low Dose Rate Radiation Exposure

Those who directly inhale tobacco smoke receive alpha particle bombardment
totalling many rads over many years of smoking.[14,23,27,28] The frequency
of harmful effects from low dose rate radiation exposure is proportional to
the total dose received over time.[29] The risk of cancer initiation for
any cumulative radiation dose increases significantly at lower dose rates
in accordance with the lengthening of exposure periods[14] such as those
experienced by smokers. Investigators have shown that inhalation of tobacco
smoke causes more DNA damage in smokers than in nonsmokers.[30] DNA damage
is reported to be associated with cancer initiation.[19]

Lung cancer has been induced in test animals using less than one-fifth the
210Po exposure experienced by a two-pack-a-day smoker during 25 years
of smoking.[31] It has been suggested[19,32] that 210Po accounts for
many, if not all, cigarette smoke-induced lung cancers.

Polonium 210 is a "bone seeker." In other words, bone tissue avidly takes
up available 210Po.[8] Ionizing radiation delivered to bone marrow at
relatively low rates (e.g., 7 rads to 13 rads total exposure) has been
reported[33] to induce the onset of leukemia at relatively high rates per
red of exposure.

Despite this evidence, there has been doubt concerning the role of
radioactivity in general and 210Po, specifically, as prime cancer
initiators in those who inhale tobacco smoke.[26,34] Because polonium is
water soluble, could it linger in the lungs long enough to cause cancer?

It might ordinarily be thought that inhaled 210Pb particles and
210Po would be readily cleared from the lungs by ciliary action or be
otherwise excreted, even though tobacco smoke inhalation results in
decreased ciliary activity in the bronchioles.[35,36] However, a continuing
alpha particle bombardment from 210Po is caused by pockets, or
concentrations, of insoluble 210Pb and polymerized tobacco leaf
trichome-210Pb entities because the 210Pb decays to become
210Pb[7,8] in or on the affected tissue.[14,15,19] Another impediment
to clearance of 210Po from the lungs of those who inhale tobacco
smoke is the "locking down" of the radioisotope by tobacco tar present in
the smoke.[2,4,23,26,32]

Much of the experimental work performed to assess the carcinogenicity of
tobacco smoke has been done using mouse skin assays in which tobacco smoke
distillates are placed onto shaved areas of mouse skin to look for
development of cancer.[34] However, because of the unique mechanics of
210Pb and 210Po deposition in the lungs, mouse skin assays are
inadequate for assessing the role of those radioisotopes in lung cancer
initiation.[26]

Synergistic Effects from Tobacco Smoke
 
George Burns smoked cigars all day long (10-15 a day). And he lived to be 100 years old...
 
As per the article, I conclude that:

The wealthier countries (America, etc.) use advanced chemicals to fertilize the soil that the tobacco plants grow in. This causes the tobacco to grow faster and may even be more flavorful, but contains a higher level of radioactive agents than normal tobacco. This is what causes cancer and since most of our great cigars come from poor spots (Nicarauga, etc.), then we don't have to concern ourselves with this issue.

If this is true, then it makes me want to consider smoking less Acid cigars as many of those use American tobacco leaves.

DJM: Do you avoid any particular cigars or practices (inhaling)?

Please reply, djm.
 
well, i tend to think american tobacco is probably the most heavily fertilized, so most likely the most contaminated. tobacco is really tough on the soil, so to farm the same land annually you'd have to use a whole lot of fertilizer without crop rotation. and i don't even know if commercial tobacco farmers rotate crops. but, chemical fertilizers have been like this for years and i don't see why they wouldn't be available even in the less economically advantaged countries. in this country they're all using it, and another point people are overlooking about this is that not only is tobacco radioactive because of it, but so is food and water.

the statistic i heard that drew my attention to this whole topic was: 1 cigarette gives you the same dose of radiation as 10 chest x-rays. so, 200 chest x-rays per pack of cigarettes.

i don't really avoid any particular cigars because i have no clue which might or might not be made with this type of fertilizer. it wouldn't surprise me if they all are. i don't inhale either, oh man i'd cough my brains out, haha.
 
Good read DJM! I'll stop smoking when I start to glow! :sign:
 
djm said:
i don't really avoid any particular cigars because i have no clue which might or might not be made with this type of fertilizer.  it wouldn't surprise me if they all are.
:0

So basically, radioactive substances can cause a disease known as cancer, this fertilizer creates those radioactive substances and we smoke cigars that contain this?

Man, I love cigars, and obviously by your posts, DJM, you do too. How are we to justify this? Are the amounts dangerous? I am looking for some concrete facts here, not trying to be a killjoy. Please forgive me if this spoils anyone's day.
 
If you start to glow I would suggest you quit smoking! :sign:
 
I guess I better stop smoking, and while I'm at it I better stop eating. Same fertilizer that is used for tobacco is used for food folks. :sign: ;)
 
shadow said it...living in america, there is no way you are going to avoid anything grown with this type of fertilizer, whether it's tobacco or vegetables, unless you shop at all-organic stores (but then what will you smoke?). why they pick on tobacco for this i don't know, because they're pointing the finger at the effect rather than the cause.

how do we justify continuing to smoke? same answer. you can't avoid it, you'll still be eating it, so why not smoke it too!

'course i've always wanted to know what they use for fertilizer down in cuba....... ;)
 
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