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Do we manufacture ANTHING in the US now?

That's all well and good and sounds exactly like where we want the country as a whole to be headed, but what about:

1. Young adults for whom college, even community college is not the best route for them to achieve employment and a standard of living that will not be perpetually frustrating and limiting?

2. In service to whom? In what way? By whom? To what standard?

I think it's dangerous to apply the biological concept of "evolution" to the socio-historical trends and forces that drive the development of a nation's economic systems. Natural selection appears to have analogs in aspects of the unfettered free-market (yes, capitalist) economy but a social system must embody a statement of the social good that is lacking in the biological interpretation.

There are those who would argue the origins of the prosperity that some of us enjoy today. And it is by no means clear that a "modern" economy is equivalent to a "good" economy.

Wilkey

PS. I see Matt beat me to the punch.

Case in point, My nephew, when studying for his MBA was offered $60,000 when he graduated. When he did graduate he ended up putting his resume' out for a reps job. There were no MBA positions
in the corporate world. Companies started exploiting the fact that they could hire a salesman with an MBA at the end of his name, made the company look good. This by the way, was in 1995, things have dramatically worsened since then.


There's a price to be paid for everything...

Here's the thing... we're selling our expertise to these producer nations. Who do you think goes into countries like China and Malaysia and other emerging markets to set up factories and production lines?

I agree that some level of production is necessary in any country, but with the global economic labor force, it makes complete sense to modernize our economy to the point where we provide design/expertise rather than hard labor.

It's the risk of becoming a wealthy nation. It is no longer cost effective to produce many types of goods/services.


The US may go into China but all they are doing is selling their machinery. A friend of mine does just that...he sources redundant machinery in the US, sells it to China, ships and gets it set up. Most US companies have no real ownership in China factories, what they do have is an agreement for supply.

It may be perceived that our economy is being modernized but for whom? The Chinese are buying up the US with their new found wealth. Outsourcing is in effect changing the US in more way than one.

Brian
 
...our outsourcing to china may help us avoid environmental issues...
Well yes. It's redistributing the environmental impact to China.

A similar thing happens with things like greenhouse gas credits. I pay you to deal with a problem I create. This is the economic side of the equation. The other side includes considerations of whether the country that's assuming our risks and impacts is any more or less capable of dealing with those risks and impacts than we are and how will they deal with those.

It's no longer in question whether environmental damage that occurs elsewhere on the globe will affect us. Eventually it will. So if this is the case, what is it that we're really doing by simply moving around these bogey men instead of facing them head-on?

Wilkey
 
...our outsourcing to china may help us avoid environmental issues...
Well yes. It's redistributing the environmental impact to China.

A similar thing happens with things like greenhouse gas credits. I pay you to deal with a problem I create. This is the economic side of the equation. The other side includes considerations of whether the country that's assuming our risks and impacts is any more or less capable of dealing with those risks and impacts than we are and how will they deal with those.

It's no longer in question whether environmental damage that occurs elsewhere on the globe will affect us. Eventually it will. So if this is the case, what is it that we're really doing by simply moving around these bogey men instead of facing them head-on?

Wilkey

oh lets be honest, were fugged. We are simply not smart enough to fix the damage we've done to the earth. Hell I've always believed that NASA was just good foresight. We know were screwed so were looking for some were to start over before this place is uninhabitable.
 
oh lets be honest, were fugged. We are simply not smart enough to fix the damage we've done to the earth. Hell I've always believed that NASA was just good foresight. We know were screwed so were looking for some were to start over before this place is uninhabitable.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

All the more reason to go pick up that box of Padron Anni's today. :thumbs:

Wilkey
 
The United States is still by far the best country in the world, IMO. But, we are alienating our middle class by opening up even more doors for the upper class. There will never be a true balance between white collar and blue collar jobs. It will swing to one side or the other and it will always do it quicker than our education system allows for change. By the time it swings back to more blue collar jobs, we'll not have enough workers and vice versa.
 
The United States is still by far the best country in the world, IMO. But, we are alienating our middle class by opening up even more doors for the upper class. There will never be a true balance between white collar and blue collar jobs. It will swing to one side or the other and it will always do it quicker than our education system allows for change. By the time it swings back to more blue collar jobs, we'll not have enough workers and vice versa.
Well said, Matt. And I agree, not having lived in any other country besides Canada, if I had to choose I'd choose to live in America.

I'd add that not only are we alienating our middle class, we are pushing it toward extinction. On the high end, it is as you say. On the low end, more and more families are being pushed toward the ranks of poverty. It's not a good feeling. And it's not just swings in the educational system. Educational policy and philosophy are perpetually in a state of reform with little progress seemingly made. Not only do we need more blue collar jobs, we need to engender changes in the society such that we will value the professional, craft, and trade careers. The European trades/apprenticehip model is one which we might consider adapting from.

Wilkey
 
China is riding a growth wave right now, and they have no regard to environmental issues. There are virtually no restrictions on CO2 emissions in China, nor on any other green house gasses, pollutants, etc. My company does a ton of business with an importer of Chinese goods (cabinets, granite, sinks, faucets) and we have been told point blank, the government in China has very little regard to environmental issues, but high regard for economic growth. There is virtaully no middle class in China, you have very rich business owners and government officials, and very poor workers.
What really gets me is, we are dealing with a communist government, borrowing money from, sending billions in exports, and imports, rely on them to make our shoes, toothpaste, etc; yet the US refuses to deal with another communist government just 90 miles off the US coast. IMHO, seems a little hypocritical.
I feel as you do Matt, we live in the greatest country on the planet, and I would not change that for anything.
Rob
 
oh lets be honest, were fugged. We are simply not smart enough to fix the damage we've done to the earth. Hell I've always believed that NASA was just good foresight. We know were screwed so were looking for some were to start over before this place is uninhabitable.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

All the more reason to go pick up that box of Padron Anni's today. :thumbs:

Wilkey


X2
 
China is riding a growth wave right now, and they have no regard to environmental issues. There are virtually no restrictions on CO2 emissions in China, nor on any other green house gasses, pollutants, etc. My company does a ton of business with an importer of Chinese goods (cabinets, granite, sinks, faucets) and we have been told point blank, the government in China has very little regard to environmental issues, but high regard for economic growth. There is virtaully no middle class in China, you have very rich business owners and government officials, and very poor workers.
What really gets me is, we are dealing with a communist government, borrowing money from, sending billions in exports, and imports, rely on them to make our shoes, toothpaste, etc; yet the US refuses to deal with another communist government just 90 miles off the US coast. IMHO, seems a little hypocritical.
I feel as you do Matt, we live in the greatest country on the planet, and I would not change that for anything.
Rob

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX2!
 
China is riding a growth wave right now, and they have no regard to environmental issues. There are virtually no restrictions on CO2 emissions in China, nor on any other green house gasses, pollutants, etc. My company does a ton of business with an importer of Chinese goods (cabinets, granite, sinks, faucets) and we have been told point blank, the government in China has very little regard to environmental issues, but high regard for economic growth. There is virtaully no middle class in China, you have very rich business owners and government officials, and very poor workers.
What really gets me is, we are dealing with a communist government, borrowing money from, sending billions in exports, and imports, rely on them to make our shoes, toothpaste, etc; yet the US refuses to deal with another communist government just 90 miles off the US coast. IMHO, seems a little hypocritical.
I feel as you do Matt, we live in the greatest country on the planet, and I would not change that for anything.
Rob

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX2!

Again, tell me why I can't just go out and buy a Party Short to smoke for lunch, but F'n ridiculous.


WHOOPS, meant to edit. Sorry about that.
 
Again, tell me why I can't just go out and buy a Party Short to smoke for lunch, but F'n ridiculous.

Cuba has nothing we need for economic growth and nothing that will make the fat man fatter. The embargo went on way too long and now the rest of the world has a shoe in on all the future development that could have potential for US bigwigs. After the fall of Castro, Cuba will no longer be a communist country and will not be able to pay it's workers 2 cents on the dollar, like China can. We overlook the humanitarian problems in China to fatten the wallets of our upper class. Besides that, we rely on cash from China and Cuba doesn't have any of that to lend us.
 
Oh I’m not going to claim to know much about economics but what I do know is our outsourcing to china may help us avoid environmental issues but it’s also allowing them to have huge revenue and in turn there amassing considerable assets in the U.S. Sooner or later they’ll own us.

This is a common misconception. Our money is not being given away for free, we're obtaining goods and services in return for that money. Unless you feel there is more value in money than there is in tangible goods (which is a specious argument at best), there isn't any need for concern here.

Additionally, what do you think the Chinese are going to do (and have been doing) with these considerable amount of dollars they are getting? Buying our debt, for one thing... not out of good will, but because it's a solid investment, and because it allows the USA to continue consuming. Fact is that we need each other. They also are buying more and more American expertise, movies, microchips, software, etc, etc.
 
China is riding a growth wave right now, and they have no regard to environmental issues. There are virtually no restrictions on CO2 emissions in China, nor on any other green house gasses, pollutants, etc. My company does a ton of business with an importer of Chinese goods (cabinets, granite, sinks, faucets) and we have been told point blank, the government in China has very little regard to environmental issues, but high regard for economic growth. There is virtaully no middle class in China, you have very rich business owners and government officials, and very poor workers.

That's actually not the case. There is a burgeoning middle class in China... as evidenced by the types of consumer goods that are selling there that were unthinkable just a decade ago.

However there is a huge difference between coastal China, and the rest of China. That's where the main class divisions lay. That's what they mean when they talk about China's "other 1 billion people".

What really gets me is, we are dealing with a communist government, borrowing money from, sending billions in exports, and imports, rely on them to make our shoes, toothpaste, etc; yet the US refuses to deal with another communist government just 90 miles off the US coast. IMHO, seems a little hypocritical.

Difference being that Cuba had nuclear missiles a few hundred miles from our shore, installed there by a regime that showed little regard for diplomacy. I don't find it hypocritical at all.

However I do find it to be pointless; free trade is what would bring down Castro and his regime at this point, not the embargo.
 
The US may go into China but all they are doing is selling their machinery. A friend of mine does just that...he sources redundant machinery in the US, sells it to China, ships and gets it set up. Most US companies have no real ownership in China factories, what they do have is an agreement for supply.

We sell them far more than machinery; that's actually a relatively unimportant part of the whole equation. We sell them knowledge and expertise in the form of consultants, and we're investing an ass-load of money in terms of direct foreign investment. They prosper, we prosper.

And I do me "we" -- not just fat cats. You own any stock in your 401K or other mutual funds? Then you're part of the "we" that benefits.

It may be perceived that our economy is being modernized but for whom? The Chinese are buying up the US with their new found wealth. Outsourcing is in effect changing the US in more way than one.

What part of the US are the Chinese buying up, exactly? This is the same type of talk we heard in the late 80's/early 90's regarding Japan. It never happened.
 
BTW for a great discussion on a number of the issues touched upon here, check out the May 19th issue of The Economist:

20070519issuecovUS400.jpg

.....

America's fear of China
May 17th 2007
From The Economist print edition

China is a far-from-cuddly beast; but bashing it is a bad idea

IF THE guest list determined a meeting's value, the Strategic Economic Dialogue between China and America on May 22nd would be a roaring success. Almost half the Chinese cabinet is trooping to Washington, DC, for the second of the twice-yearly discussions, conceived by Hank Paulson, America's treasury secretary, between the world's largest economy and its fastest-growing one. The process was designed, in large part, as an antidote to the latest case of Asiaphobia among America's politicians. It is not working.

The itch to get tough with Beijing is urgent in Congress. Brandishing China's growing bilateral trade surplus as proof, congressmen from both parties have denounced the country as a currency manipulator, an illegal export-subsidiser, a violator of rights to intellectual property and all-round trade scoff-law. China-bashers have introduced a dozen bills in the new Congress. Some are bound to languish, but others may be passed—though there would then be further hurdles to jump, not least the president's power of veto (George Bush has other conflicts on his mind). The most threatening include proposals that would declare China's cheap currency an illegal subsidy and allow American firms to seek compensatory tariffs.


Politics in Beijing is less open, but the circumstances are similarly unhelpful. Because they have no electoral legitimacy, China's Communist leaders need to deliver the economic goods even more than most congressmen do. Worried about unemployment, the Chinese are loth to let their currency, the yuan, appreciate much faster than at today's snail's pace. And as with all dictatorships, there is the need to seem tough. With the five-yearly Communist Party congress only months away, China's president, Hu Jintao, cannot be seen to be bowing to American pressure on the yuan or anything else.

Japanese lessons
Thankfully, an all-out trade war remains unlikely. Congressional leaders seem inclined to act within the rules of the World Trade Organisation (WTO), which limit the scope and scale of any barriers that America can unilaterally impose. And some friction is to be expected in a trading relationship worth well over $300 billion a year. But although today's tensions are not cause for panic, they are a costly and unnecessary distraction—and potentially worse than that.

One worrying parallel is the Japanophobia of the 1980s and early 1990s. Back then, Japan's rising bilateral trade surplus and its mounting foreign-exchange reserves were seen as “proof” of its manipulated currency and mercantilist attitude. America's paranoia deepened as its jobless rate climbed—especially when the Japanese started buying landmarks like the Rockefeller Centre. In fact, Japan's bubble economy ended up bursting; but not before an outbreak of foolish protectionism. The economic tension even undermined support in both countries for America's security alliance with Japan.

The case against China is even weaker than the one against Japan was. Its economy is far more open. Though much poorer than Japan was then, China is already America's fastest-growing export market. And in contrast to the 1980s, the WTO now exists as an umpire for trade disputes. But logic, alas, may count for less than political grievance. America's low unemployment rate looks set to rise in the wake of the housing bust. To American voters, the Chinese are likely to become more prominent rivals, whether it be displacing America at the top of some economic league tables, winning Olympic medals or buying big American firms (the Chinese are rightly keen to diversify from treasury bonds). Most worrying, though, are the strategic risks. Japan was an ally in Asia: China is potentially a military competitor. Trade tensions could make it easier to see China as a rival and harder to enlist it as a partner.

Running such geopolitical risks would be understandable if China's policies posed a true threat to America's economic health. But they do not. China's intellectual-property violations cost American firms far less than many would have you believe: pirated DVDs may sell for peanuts in the markets of Shanghai, but if Hollywood tried to sell the genuine articles at full price, it would quickly discover that most Chinese could not afford them. Similarly, a stronger yuan would do little to dent America's trade deficit (see article).

So much to lose, so little to gain

The bilateral trade imbalance, the target of so many American politicians' anger, is an economic red herring. Its rise reflects changing supply patterns in Asia: America now imports more stuff that has passed through China—and correspondingly fewer goods from South Korea and Taiwan. China's overall surplus and America's overall deficit have less to do with the value of the yuan than with Chinese saving and American profligacy. True, a stronger, more flexible yuan makes sense for China, because it would help shift spending towards imports and would give Beijing's policymakers greater control over interest rates, making it easier to prevent the economy from overheating. But the effect on America would be small.

Rather than picking fights over the currency, Congress should step back and ask why Americans are so upset with China in the first place. The answer is that China is a scapegoat for broader economic anxieties to do with stagnant wages, rising income-inequality and dwindling health and pension benefits. These insecurities, which also lie behind the bad idea of introducing labour standards in trade agreements (see article), are much better tackled head on—at home.

Comprehensive health-care reform to create a system where all Americans have access to portable health insurance would do a lot to reduce workers' anxiety and equip them for an economy that these days demands frequent job shifts. Reform of the payroll tax, a regressive levy that hits the less affluent hardest, would be a good way to shift resources to needier Americans. By contrast, raising barriers to cheap Chinese imports would disproportionately hit the wallets of poor and middle-income American consumers—the very people the Democrats in particular claim to be protecting.

By scaling back its China-bashing, Congress could avoid such blunders. It would also leave more room to engage Chinese officials on subjects that actually matter. Top of the trade agenda ought to be the successful conclusion of the Doha round of global talks. No country has more at stake in a vibrant WTO than China, yet Beijing has been scandalously unwilling to help push for a Doha deal.

But the greatest prizes of Sino-American diplomacy are nothing to do with trade. Avoiding war and conflict, naturally, comes top of the list, whether by co-operation over North Korean and Iranian nukes or by building the trust that minimises the odds of a clash in the Taiwan Strait. Then there is China's expansion into Africa, particularly its cosy relations with genocidal Sudan. Global warming, too, ought to be centre-stage. China is building a new coal-fired power plant every week and is set to surpass America as the biggest source of greenhouse gases within a year. If the world is to contain its carbon emissions, America must not only clean up its own act but also help China to green its economic growth.

Mr Paulson wants the strategic dialogue to address some of these broader issues. Congress should stop distracting him.
 
Oh I’m not going to claim to know much about economics but what I do know is our outsourcing to china may help us avoid environmental issues but it’s also allowing them to have huge revenue and in turn there amassing considerable assets in the U.S. Sooner or later they’ll own us.

This is a common misconception. Our money is not being given away for free, we're obtaining goods and services in return for that money. Unless you feel there is more value in money than there is in tangible goods (which is a specious argument at best), there isn't any need for concern here.

Additionally, what do you think the Chinese are going to do (and have been doing) with these considerable amount of dollars they are getting? Buying our debt, for one thing... not out of good will, but because it's a solid investment, and because it allows the USA to continue consuming. Fact is that we need each other. They also are buying more and more American expertise, movies, microchips, software, etc, etc.

I get what your saying about us receaving goods and raising our standard of living but the math doesn't work, anytime you have more money going out then coming into the country it will catch up to us.
 
I get what your saying about us receaving goods and raising our standard of living but the math doesn't work, anytime you have more money going out then coming into the country it will catch up to us.

During the Great Depression, we had one of the highest trade imbalances in US history, in terms of we were exporting far more than we were importing. There's much more at play here than a simple number on an import/export balance sheet.

Germany has an extremely export-heavy economy, and yet Germany has more than double the unemployment we have here, and has had stagnant growth compared to the USA.

An export-based economy is not necessarily a great thing, just as a strong currency is not necessarily a great thing. "It depends" and "there are a lot of factors that come into play" are about the best answer you'll get on both. :)
 
Thanks a lot Moki, that article was very informative. This whole China thing has been in and out of my thinking cap for a while and that pretty much answers most of my questions.
 
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