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For You Younger Guys in Favor of Lifting the Embargo....

obmike said:
One of my friends grew up in Cuba and had me read Havana Nocturne.  It gives a somewhat different view.  Their view is that American "investment" did nothing for the common citizen of Cuba. 
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This is very true.  We often forget that Batista and his cronies were pretty big jerks themselves.  There was a very common sentiment among the populace that Batista was a puppet for American exploitative interests.  This alienation of the population is how the 26th of July Movement was able to to overthrow the regime in only 6 years--practically overnight by revolutionary/insurgent standards. 
 
Unfortunately for many of the revolution's supporters and the populace at large, once they figured out they gave power to an even bigger jerk, it was too late.
 
This, along with the legacy of nationalization discussed in Gary's link, proves that the idea of normalizing Cuban-American relations will be a complex and multifaceted affair.  Somebody is going to get short-changed.
 
Pugman1943 said:
This begs a question. If the embargo was lifted, would CC's be a hot item, or because the DOM and NIC's have a great foothold, would the CC's not be such a big deal after the dust settles?
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Pug, I think they would be a hot item and quality would probably tank after everybody and their mother would have access to buying them but this is getting way ahead of ourselves. Just from the article that Gary posted there is just too much that needs to be figured out. I don't think that Cuba would be able to keep up initially if this market opened up. I also feel that people would be after the embargoed CC's before the mad rush for quality reasons. And speaking of China - they would also probably flood the market with a ton of fake CC's. Can't remember where I read it but they are already doing so and pretty good at it.
 
I also found this on another forum and opens up another bag of worms (scary): 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqSrUi3diTE
 
I saw that Hirochi Robaina story on another forum as well.  It will be very interesting to see what comes out of that.
 
I have get to agree with Kris... This is not a matter of right or wrong with me. I have worked hard to be able to buy my CC's, my german cars, and my japanese electronics, among other things. Life is too short for me to make a political statement with my purchases, and think it will make a big difference. I know that some people will think that I am selfish and un-American, but they are wrong. I served my country, I pay my taxes, and I share my blessings as much as I can. I do feel bad for the Cuban people, and try as much as possible to help keep them employed and happy as they can be, with my purchase of CC's..
 
A fitting picture of the scumbag!
 
Fidel-Castro-the-Big-Island-Rat-With-a-Cigar--74042_zps8a554bdd.jpg
 
Light this! said:
 
This begs a question. If the embargo was lifted, would CC's be a hot item, or because the DOM and NIC's have a great foothold, would the CC's not be such a big deal after the dust settles?
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Pug, I think they would be a hot item and quality would probably tank after everybody and their mother would have access to buying them
 
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Political considerations, human rights and legalities aside - the reality is that many cigarpass posters readily and frequently access sources for CC's. Pics of them are the majority of pics posted, as near as I can tell.
 
I've more than once thought that if the embargo on cigars were to be lifted, those people currently enjoying a variety of CC's would suffer a major shock on price, quality and ability to source their favorite CC.
 
I'm not saying anything about the politics and legalities, I am saying that my guess is that if the embargo on cigars is lifted that in terms of cigars being smoked it may well not be a good thing for those who are currently enjoying them.
 
I don't think any one realistically thinks that Castro, or his regime, were "good," but let's not take a ridiculously complex and intricate mess that is the US embargo of Cuba and boil it down to Cold War rhetoric. I'm sure that the Cuban Missile crisis was very frightening to live through, but those missiles didn't wind up on Cuban soil out of the blue; they were placed there as a direct result of the US installing Jupiter missiles in Turkey, right on Moscow's doorstep. 
 
And yes, the Communist record on human rights is abysmal, though balance that with our own political leadership's role in Latin American and South American politics during the 1970s and you understand why folks like Henry Kissinger would be arrested on sight for human rights violations in a half-dozen countries. 
 
The Cold War was an awful time, and even in victory we're still dealing with the bastard regimes of that time period in places in the middle east, North Korea and countries like Cuba. The point is too move forward at some stage. The embargo really only serves to rile up votes in southern Florida, from the Cuban American population who still cling to some dream of returning to Cuba, to reclaim lost land and property, and simply put that ain't gonna happen.
 
Fun fact I learned today on a vendor postcard

Before JFK sign the order that imposed the Cuban embargo on February 7th 1962, he ordered his press secretary, Pierre Salinger, on a treasure hunt around Washington DC for every H.Upmann petit corona he could find. After Salinger rounded up1200 of them Kennedy put the embargo into effect.
 
Sorry if that this is off topic a bit, but the only casually from the Cuban missile crisis was a Clemson University graduate.  His plane was shot down while on a reconnaissance mission.  We here at Clemson celebrate his life each year and remember him as a hero for this country, especially on Veteran's Day.
 
Here is the wiki page about him if anyone wants to read about him:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Anderson
 
I like the idea of the embargo ending. At this point in history, I'm of the opinion that it is purely political, and from the standpoint of each party thinking a certain position will gain them votes. The rest of the world has no animosity towards the Cuban people, and if we think the cuban people suffer due to the embargo is, to me, embracing propaganda. The USA has not taken Castro out of power because they benefit from his existence. The CIA has toppled more sophisticated governments with a lot more resources.  
 
I know a highly educated PHD (Latin American Studies) who came to the USA when he was 16, and when Castro was making his famous grabs. He does not like what happened, but he says that Batista was worse. Opinions, facts, etc. can all be volleyed yet, no majority will ever vote for conditions to return to the way they were before Castro. Even with the rest of the world trading with Cuba, the people still suffer. Why? Because of the power structure's paranoia. Any energy expended should be towards changing that, not isolating it's big toe; which is, in effect, all that the embargo has accomplished. 
 
For instance, what is the percentage of people who lost all, but got it all at the expense of their brethren. Those who gained by being in bed with Batista? That is something we never hear about. Yet, if you talk to educated Cubans, it is a sore subject. My friend says that Castro is loved by some cubans because he did a lot of good for them. So, there is a lot more to the dynamics of this than agenda ridden articles portray. They'll never make everybody happy, but this embargo is not the answer.
 
In my view, history has shown that the Cuban embargo did not work, and does not work.
 
The United States' best weapon against communism was never a missile or a CIA agent. It was simply American culture.
 
Trade restrictions, to be effective, must be absolute. The Cuban Embargo has never been an absolute trade restriction as there are humanitarian exceptions. In addition, this embargo was ignored, not only by Europe, but Canada as well. Canada is a viable option for an alternative to American products and services.
 
American trade policy based on the economics of the 50's does not work in the 10's of the 21st century. A fundamental of macro-economics is that technology changes are a fundamental shift in the factors comprising equation of a macro-economic model, and the number of shifts that have occurred in the past fifty years is substantial.
 
It is time to take a fresh look at this embargo.
 
Now, is it worth a fresh look so the newbs who are not cold war kids like me can have CC ? No. Its because American foreign policy from the 50's does not work in this era.
 
Cparker
 
Light this! said:
Just read this on another site and a great read. Wishful thinking but hey you never know and it looks like Fuente is pre planning too!
 
http://tbo.com/news/...arket-20140511/
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Like some said in the article Kris, quite a few companies have had a plan in place for many years. The closest this has come in our time was when Clinton took office...and then it died out. Then it gained some traction again when Obama first took office...and it seemed to fizzle out once again.  
 
There's more to this than just the lifting of the embargo for trade & travel sake. It has to do with the 'giving back' of the assets that were seized during the original takeover from Batista. Not just the mining interests, hotels/casinos, and land/building seizures, but also the taking of the cigar brand rights that were owned by the European & American companies that operated the farms and the supporting production facilities for many years. I remember reading an article a few years back about some lawsuits in Europe that were going on to re-establish those rights of the specific brands back to the original owners...but I never heard or read anything else about it since.    
 
I think if that discussion took place in earnest, there may be some movement to open free trade again. But as history has been told, Castro won't even entertain the notion of giving anything back to the original investors. In the end, it's all about the money and it looks like each side has dug in their heels on this one.  
 
Lifting the embargo in our lifetimes ain't going to happen. You can't the rub the noses of a half dozen American presidents in it with out paying the consequences.
 
Doc
 
I don't know we lost a lot of fellas in a thing called Vietnam. They took over all the assests and property of foreign governments when South Vietnam fell. I see they have free and unfettered access to trade with us and we can travel there without restriction. I'm just saying that I thought it would be a cold day in hell before we had anything to do with Vietnam and I think I have a shirt or two made there. YMMV
 
PS: Yes Gary I find your FB articles well interesting to say the least!
 
I think you're comparing apples to oranges, Anthony. Castro is still alive. Uncle Ho is long gone. Vietnam has embraced capitalism. Cuba, not so much. Vietnam doesn't incite antipathy toward the US. Cuba is always inciting S. American countries to piss on us.
 
Doc
 
Doc true on all counts, but if that is the case we shouldn't be dealing with Russia and China! Because as we all know Mr. Putin loves to pee on us on every occasion.
 
Seems as thought we don't have any issue using other communist nations to our benefit for cheap goods.  Doesn't seem liike we should treat them any differently. 
 
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