Fuente DVDs

[txmatt]

Damn Moki! Tell it like it is. I'm really impressed with your rebutles. I've got a new respect for you my friend  :thumbs:

CVM I was thinking the exact opposite. Although Stoney is not arguing his point the best in the world he is doing so without the personal attacks and name calling. Resorting to those IMO shows a lack of ability to debate a point and instead is akin to a grade school playground name calling contest. Or perhaps this "debate" is more like an advanced middle school "yo' momma" duel; since one resorted to critiquing the opposing sides' spelling. Being semantically correct proves your point of view is more valid after all.

The MPAA and RIAA are guilty of price fixing, got convicted, and had to send people that asked for it a check for $1.21 no matter how many CDs they bought at the $18 the RIAA conspired to raise the price to. The MPAA has at least wisened up and started selling good and old DVDs for $8. The RIAA still believes it should be able to sell a CD of 30 year old music to a person that already bought it on LP and Cassette tape for $15, and then give the artist who made the music a dime out of that sale price. I haven't bought a new CD in several years with the exception of independant labels. I bought 20 CDs last month, all of them in the half priced books $1 clearance section. The RIAA doesn't get a cent out of that!

The RIAA is not allowed to pay radio stations to play their music; so instead they now sloppily launder the funds so that an "independant promoter" pays clearchannel millions of dollars a year to force you to listed to the same 12 crappy songs over and over again OR have to pay for satellite radio to get variety. One of the LAST good radio stations in the nation got bought out by clearchannel recently. When 97X (even Rainman knew their catch phrase) went down it made me realize corporate radio and the RIAA are still "the man" and will only get harder for us to discover good music instead of what the RIAA has decided can be sold. I have no moral dilemna about sharing out music so those people that want it can have it for free. It is great to have 120 gigs on a public WAP let me tell you.

As great as all of the people here say ISOMs are, I still haven't convinced myself one way or another whether or not it is right or to smoke them. The reason for my hesitance is NOT because it is illegal nor because I am afraid of getting caught. Stupid laws get passed; look at the DCMA. Arguing that something is wrong simply because it is illegal while at the same time engaging in illegal activity yourself is sheer hypocracy which I have no respect for.

I work with a Cubam woman who still has a lot of family trapped there. She and every other Cuban person I have talked on the subject to support the embargo because the people don't see any of the revenue from it. If a person tries to start a non-government controlled cigar factory they get raided like our DEA would raid a meth lab. I really want to try ISOMs, but at the same time I am not sure I can do so without feeling guilty. I greaty appreciate the way many of my BOTLs here have shared information about them with me. Once I have formed an opinion of whether or not it is wrong - this will apply to ME. For those of you who smoke ISOMs it won't affect my opinion of you on way or another - my moral code applies to ME. If some of you do feel guilty about smoking ISOMs yet still do so; you don't need my help to work through your moral dilemna NOR will anything I say effect your actions.

Moki, I was willing to apologise to you after you took such huge offense to my simple Macintosh joke. Although it seemed tremendously immature, we all have our shortcomings and most people are worth working around them. Many of the other BOTLs here seem to hold you in high reguard, so I felt it even more so. These vengeful and hateful personal attacks on a relatively new member are not appropriate. You may have a tremendous knowledge and inventory of cigars you share with some of the members here. However the lack of character you have displayed in this matter makes those no longer seem worth dealing with your tyrades and holier than thou attitude to me.

Matt


Judge not lest ye be judged.

 

[BrownDevil]

Mine don't come with cigars, but let me know if you'd like a backup copy and I'll hook you up.

Dave

I'd love one Dave :thumbs:
On the rest of this debate I will just watch along like most others.
Robert

 

[moki]

CVM I was thinking the exact opposite. Although Stoney is not arguing his point the best in the world he is doing so without the personal attacks and name calling. Resorting to those IMO shows a lack of ability to debate a point and instead is akin to a grade school playground name calling contest.

I was clearly not merely hitting him with ad-hominems to the body, I also made a number of very salient points, which he promptly either glossed over or changed the subject on. I've had many civil debates with people here; I decided the gloves came off on this one because arguing anything sensible with him was clearly pointless.

If you think all I did was insult him and call him names, then you clearly either didn't read my posts, or you skipped over chunks of 'em. I started off civil enough; but he's just didn't seem worth it. Think what you like; it's all out in the open. I'm sure some people will render the same judgment you have, and I'm fine with that.

 

[dixieland_conjunction]

letting this die *EDIT*

Cheers,
Dixie

 

[txmatt]

I've had many civil debates with people here; I decided the gloves came off on this one because arguing anything sensible with him was clearly pointless.

At some point many debates are pointless and come down to people saying "apple" and "orange". I prefer to acknowledge that fact than to switch to personal attacks.

If you think all I did was insult him and call him names, then you clearly either didn't read my posts, or have reading comprehension issues. 

I don't believe all you did was call him names Andrew; however the degree to which you did wasn't appropriate IMHO. I am not claiming to be an authority of what constitutes appropriate discussion. As you pointed out some people will see it my way, and some believe debate utilizing name calling and/or pedanticism is effective.

I think many people here should read Kirk's "less is more" post. There has been a lot of nastiness around here the past week, and its easy to get swept into it. I enjoy debate when it doesn't go there but I guess sometimes that isn't possible. Internet discussion can't show emotion and text is often interpreted wrong.

I believe I could be guilty of reading you wrong myself as your reply above was well thought and level headed; not what I expect from people I have become dismissive of.

Matt

 

[StonyVision]

Why does it matter who does or does not get the money? Would you take a Corvette you wanted, but can't afford from the lot with the justification that Assembly Worker Bob or Design Jane don't make any comission on the sale?

As a musician, of course, I hate that the musicians might not make much money from greater sales....so? The money is still being taken from the owners of those companies.

I own a fair amount of Adobe. So, everytime someone pirates PhotoShop or Illustrator, etc., you're stealing from ME....not some greedy company.

Cheers,
Dixie

well I would think as being a musician you would see the opportunity in getting your stuff out there allot easier, I mean thounds upon thousands are putting there stuff up on I tunes for free for exposure, it was argued before that it hurts things but I can honestly say I believe it helps things too, there’s an article here from new Zealand that shows a high increase in cd sales along with piracy, http://onenews.nzoom.com/onenews_detail/0,...862-1-7,00.html
I believe allot of people are simply sampling new stuff instead of paying the full 12-15 for a cd they may not like, there’s been similar trends in the us too. Which is really why bands are putting there stuff up for free. I guess my beliefs is along with the down trend well see and up trend for some of the things. i propose to u
http://freshmeat.net/articles/view/162

i guess id come to say if the product is good people will buy it, i have, i own several easly pirateable products, but i liked them so i bought em. And i guess it occures to me that after reading this whole mess that we really got down to the point that: never the less of what i do morally in my life; theres no going back for the whole issue, it sounds horrable but the damage is done, now what will the industrys do, will they offer the product for less or adapt there styles or will they fall? One thing is for sure, if piricy stopped tomarrow there would be a whole new set of problems. All the compnays who make softwere to protect your media would be otta business, so i guess i trully ask as my main point to im moki, Not justifying but What should be done about it? Theres a reasion an entire society breaks the law and i dont belive its lazyness or selfishness. Whats to be done?

 

[moki]

I don't believe all you did was call him names Andrew; however the degree to which you did wasn't appropriate IMHO.

Well, I do. "Stony" needs to cut back on the reefer, because he hasn't been insightful, interesting, or lucid in any of his arguments. He's just a clueless guy trying to justify his poor behavior with diversionary arguments, incorrect facts, and just general muddle-headedness.

I'm calling a spade a spade -- if you want to make excuses for the guy, go for it. I'm glad the dismissiveness is mutual.

 

[dixieland_conjunction]

Believe me, I understand marketing. I know that offering free samples is a great idea.

I've performed in 100's of free concerts and, though I don't perform pubilcly any longer, would contine to do so. I love sharing my music with others. :thumbs:

However, I've also been in many, many paying gigs. If I found out that people were distributed bootleg recordings of my for-profit concerts, I'd be very upset.


I think what is being proposed is that everything be offered for free (or so cheaply it would be cost-prohibitive to steal) since "everyone" is just going to steal it anyway. :lookup:

Cheers,
Dixie

 

[StonyVision]

I don't believe all you did was call him names Andrew; however the degree to which you did wasn't appropriate IMHO.

Well, I do. "Stony" needs to cut back on the reefer, because he hasn't been insightful, interesting, or lucid in any of his arguments. He's just a clueless guy trying to justify his poor behavior with diversionary arguments, incorrect facts, and just general muddle-headedness.

well i guess u can feel that way but ur main argument to everything is that it comes back and affects you in the pocket. U have to pay more, i just dont see it, look at the music scean, music cds are cheaper than they ever where, id like to see any video game or softwere that has gone up in price over the past 3 years in direct relation to piricy? u say im muddle headed prove it

 

[dixieland_conjunction]

U have to pay more, i just dont see it, look at the music scean, music cds are cheaper than they ever where, id like to see any video game or softwere that has gone up in price over the past 3 years in direct relation to piricy? u say im muddle headed prove it

Oh, so you're providing a service to the real consumers. I guess I didn't realize that until now :lookup:

Cheers,
Dixie

 

[StonyVision]

U have to pay more, i just dont see it, look at the music scean,  music cds are cheaper than they ever where, id like to see any video game or softwere that has gone up in price over the past 3 years in direct relation to piricy? u say im muddle headed prove it

Oh, so you're providing a service to the real consumers. I guess I didn't realize that until now :lookup:

Cheers,
Dixie

grrrr simply put u guys seem to ignore the fact that

Quoted from txmatt
The MPAA and RIAA are guilty of price fixing, got convicted, and had to send people that asked for it a check for $1.21 no matter how many CDs they bought at the $18 the RIAA conspired to raise the price to. The MPAA has at least wisened up and started selling good and old DVDs for $8.

I highly doubt there the first and only ones, just the first to get cought

u say i provide a public service as if im the only one. Theres nothing to justify, u guys say it has no results, it dose. Some good some bad. Point, case, fact, i admit im wrong, im not going to pirate stuff any more. Im sorry for waisint all your time. Ima burn my illegal cds right now

That dosent de-rail the massive train heading down the tracks, which givin 2 or 3 years at the current speed will have sharing music as socially and legally acceptable. dont get cought with your pants down when it happens.

and maby i can lay of the weed if moki gives me a list of good cigars to smoke instead

 

[moki]

The MPAA and RIAA are guilty of price fixing, got convicted, and had to send people that asked for it a check for $1.21 no matter how many CDs they bought at the $18 the RIAA conspired to raise the price to. The MPAA has at least wisened up and started selling good and old DVDs for $8.

First, it's plainly obvious what text you've written, and what you've copied from someone else -- you could at least attribute it, but given your lack of respect for anyone else's works, I'm not surprised you don't bother.

In any event, what that settlement shows more than anything else is that the system is working. Price fixing was uncovered, and the organizations at fault were made to pay. It also is utterly irrelevant to the issue at hand. It's really bloody simple, let's see if it makes it through this time:

If you think something is too expensive, don't buy it. Very simple -- you aren't entitled to steal it, you're entitled to exercise your right as a consumer and not purchase it. Claiming that you're justified in stealing something you want because it's priced to high is like saying it's okay to rape a girl if she's wearing clothing that turns you on, even is she says no. Different extremes, same mentality.

u say i provide a public service as if im the only one. Theres nothing to justify, u guys say it has no results, it dose. Some good some bad. Point, case, fact, i admit im wrong, im not going to pirate stuff any more. Im sorry for waisint all your time. Ima burn my illegal cds right now

Ah good, this is your writing again. Unfortunately, that means it's barely intelligible tripe.

That dosent de-rail the massive train heading down the tracks, which givin 2 or 3 years at the current speed will have sharing music as socially and legally acceptable. dont get cought with your pants down when it happens.

Obviously this is taken from someone else -- and the statement is actually quite wrong anyway. If anything, scumbags like you are going to make for more restrictive DRM -- just look at what's be OK'd to go into HDTV broadcasts. That's right, DRM.

What a brilliant idea, music "sharing" will be socially acceptable, and no one is going to bother to try to make a living as a musician. Brilliant! It might work in a communist country, but it isn't going to fly here.

 

[StonyVision]

wow first of all ur right i did copy the riaa text from txmatt i'll edit it. the train text was all mine and u wont get off my nuts will u ****er? what more do u want from me, u win there, celebrate, have a bottel of port and smoke a nice cigar. Im wrong, your right. I dont make the rules in regards the where that train is heading or do u have your head so far up ur ass u cant see that? you act as if i alone am the sole resposible persion for the cause of piracy and i can stop it any time i want. i cant, i can stop me but not them, i give up, showing the big white flag. im done. OK your right. I stand by my train statement thou

 

[dixieland_conjunction]

u wont get off my nuts will u ****er?

:0 To think... you steal AND don't want any flack for it ??? You can't have your cake and eat it too. Wait, you would just steal two cakes from the baker.

Good night

Cheers,
Dixie

 

[StonyVision]

oh and as for drm salving everything u really do dismiss the EFF too easily,

http://www.eff.org/IP/DRM/20040616_EFF-BC_DAB_comments.pdf

u can see all there articals regarding it here
http://www.eff.org/IP/DRM/

 

[moki]

I dont make the rules in regards the where that train is heading or do u have your head so far up ur ass u cant see that? you act as if i alone am the sole resposible persion for the cause of piracy and i can stop it any time i want.

In any event, the predictions in the "train" analogy are far from certain. If music is not sold, who pays for its creation, production, and marketing? If free sharing of music is the future, how do you account for the success of the iTunes music store? And how do you account for the fact that DRM is becoming more and more prevalent, not less so?

I would love to live in a world where DRM was not necessary; but scumbags like you force the rest of us to suffer. You steal music/software/movies, the prices go up, and now everyone -- including people who did not rip off said media -- have to deal with annoying DRM. Thanks.

I actually am very likely to be testifying before Congress regarding the DMCA, intellectual property, software piracy, and other such issues. I'm well versed in these areas, and you're just talking out of your ass.

 

[moki]

oh and as for drm salving everything u really do dismiss the EFF too easily,

I never said DRM would solve everything. I don't believe in cure-alls for anything.

I believe in some things the EFF stands for, and other things I do not. We actually contribute yearly to the EFF. Do you?

Regardless, you taint the EFF by association -- please do not cite the EFF as a means to defend your selfish, petty actions and justifications.

 

[StonyVision]

I dont make the rules in regards the where that train is heading or do u have your head so far up ur ass u cant see that? you act as if i alone am the sole resposible persion for the cause of piracy and i can stop it any time i want.

There's simply no way you wrote that train analogy. First, the capitalization and punctuation is correct. Second, there are no misspellings. Third, it's an analogy, which clearly seems beyond your debating abilities. Finally, it's actually lucid.

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

In any event, the predictions in the "train" analogy are far from certain. If music is not sold, who pays for its creation, production, and marketing? If free sharing of music is the future, how do you account for the success of the iTunes music store? And how do you account for the fact that DRM is becoming more and more prevalent, not less so?

I would love to live in a world where DRM was not necessary; but scumbags like you force the rest of us to suffer. You steal music/software/movies, the prices go up, and now everyone -- including people who did not rip off said media -- have to deal with annoying DRM. Thanks.

I actually am very likely to be testifying before Congress regarding the DMCA, intellectual property, software piracy, and other such issues. I'm well versed in these areas, and you're just talking out of your ass.

Ok first let’s get one thing clear the reason for the spelling issues is I have dyslexia, and yes I did write it, I have been putting stuff through ms word and trying to spell check as I type. As for the ur and u's it’s simply my form of internet shorthand. I’m quite well versed in the issues too and all the subjects I just wisent prepared for such opposition. I must say u blew me away and had me on the run.
But you guys have been trying to stop this train since napster and have failed miserably. As for the DRM I doubt the courts will allow it because as outline on the pdf for the EFF theres already precedents of several cases that would show them as illegal. Unless you can define a new way of doing it with out interfering with the end user. The same thing was purposed in the early 90’s with the issue of dubbing vhs tapes.

 

[moki]

But you guys have been trying to stop this train since napster and have failed miserably. As for the DRM I doubt the courts will allow it because as outline on the pdf for the EFF theres already precedents of several cases that would show them as illegal. Unless you can define a new way of doing it with out interfering with the end user. The same thing was purposed in the early 90’s with the issue of dubbing vhs tapes.

If by "you guys" you mean to include me, then you are wrong. I have assisted in no way in stopping Napster.

However, I assume you're aware that Napster was indeed shut down, and is now owned by the same good folks who make Toast. You can even buy Napster cards at your local computer store. This seems like a rather dramatic turn-about into DRM-land, not away from it.

The EFF can contest DRM, and I do hope some of the more restrictive aspects are indeed shut down. But DRM as a concept is here to stay; you can bet your life on it.

 

[moki]

Ok first let’s get one thing clear the reason for the spelling issues is I have dyslexia, and yes I did write it, I have been putting stuff through ms word and trying to spell check as I type.

Alright, I apologize for commenting on your writing, then. I wasn't aware.

As for being well-versed on the issues, it seems not -- it seems much more like you're well versed on flimsy excuses and justifications.