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In The Matter Of Pricing Over MSRP...

In my understanding, the point of this board is to discuss cigars, not to peruse as a shop. This whole discussion surprises me. I don't see this as an issue where third parties should be chiming in (in reference to at least one of the threads that inspired this one). It seems to me that people are all too eager to browbeat others for breeches of etiquette. Quite frankly it's disturbing to me to see a thread in the trading post that has 4+ pages worth of posts. Unless it's an ongoing trade (PIF or something like that), there's no reason for that. I don't understand why these pricing issues matter so much to people who are uninvolved. You no likey? Acknowledge and move on. If your selling, charge what you think is fair. Are you comfortable asking for 3-4x MSRP for a particular cigar? Go for it. There are certainly instances where that is appropriate (anyone check the MSRP on Cuban Dunhills/Davidoffs?). I guess my biggest thing is live and let live, relax and have a smoke. :thumbs:
 
tigger said:
Interesting article that Mark Twain linked to, and I agree with most of it, although I find this:

If we only buy Fuente Fuente Opus X® from reputable dealers that are charging fair prices for the products, we secure our rights to enjoy these cigars with more frequency and we may actually be able to buy a full box once in a while!
Click to expand...

quite bothersome.

I was not previously aware of my right to enjoy any cigar with more frequency. Nor am I aware of it now...
Click to expand...

Tig, he is arguing that "IF" you only buy FFOX at MSRP, then the current system of limiting purchases, ie "frequency" will increase.

His use of the word "rights" is left unclear, but the thrust of his argument comes through quite clearly.
 
MT- No real argument from me.

My hackles just get raised when someone claims a right which really doesn't exist. An irresistible compulsion to cry "Bravo Sierra" comes over me. :)

His overall thrust makes sense though.
 
Yeah, I guess it's always helpful to understand where someone is coming from. Bob does make a very abstract statement about rights, but he's also talking about the belief that a person has the right to smoke in public, which I realize he does not make clear in the article I linked.
 
VotTak said:
tigger said:
There's been very little (not none, but very little) of the judgment that has gone on on the other threads based on post counts, join dates, etc.
Click to expand...
And it should be raised.
How do you judge? By post count? C'mon... Someone joined 2-3 months ago and got around 1000 posts. Someone joined 2-3 years ago and have 200-300 posts... Who is more trustworthy?
Looking at the posts of some members who have high post count in short period of time you might notice that not all their posts worth counting... as they do not have value for this board. Some messages are just an info for other member... like "PM sent"... some just expressing the mood of the poster without any usefull information.
Question is whether all this posts are equal.
So, I guess neither post count nor joined date could be very helpfull when you make a judgement.
Trade count maybe? But we do not have it here.
So what is the base to make a judgement?
Click to expand...

History.

When a new member joins a board he should begin trading in the Newbie Sampler Trade thread of that board. As is the case here on CigarPass, these threads are typically overseen by someone who has already built a reputation as a fair trader and has invited others who have proven themselves to be fair traders to join him in helping newbies safely learn how to trade, while they expand their cigar smoking horizons. The new member should continue to trade with those members while following trades in other threads along with topics unrelated to trading. In that way, you’re actively involved in some trades, you’re building your own reputation, and you’re learning about the other members and their reputations. Once you feel that you’re ready to trade outside of the NST, you have made your observations of various members and formed your own opinions regarding who you feel is trustworthy.
 
pnutbutrsangwich said:
I don't understand why these pricing issues matter so much to people who are uninvolved.
Click to expand...

Because there are people here (and on all internet forums, for that matter) who think it is their business to get into everyone else's business. What people refuse to do in most instances, is realize that these people's opinions are generally not the opinion of the majority, even if it seems they've been here a long time and are "respected" members of the community. The only communication that needs to happen, if a problem arises, is between the seller and te buyer, and sometimes in this type of case, Rod. Too often, people decide they need to defend themselves to everyone, when in reality, if there is a logical defense, the only person(s) they need to explain to is the buyer or in some cases, going through Rod is the answer. People pride themselves on being able to chastise and sometimes berate a person who has less experience dealing with the types I'm speaking of.
 
Wow......intelligent conversation going on here, haven't seen this in a little while! Its making my head hurt :( .

Seriously though, this is a really good thread and the reason I love this board so much. Its sad whenever people use emotion instead of reason to make a point. IMO, I feel the same way as others in that if your not involved in a trade or sell, don't worry about it. Like was stated earlier, if you feel someone is being taken advantage of, let them know and move on.
 
tone-ny said:
Let me make one thing clear here and Wilkey touched on this. If I purchased a cigar close to MSRP plus the applicable tax and sales tax and I aged the cigar and it became a popular vintage would I not be entitled to appreciation in value? Does it mean if I make the cigar available to you now and it is a much sought after cigar I should sell it to you for what I originally paid for it?

If so there is lot of gougers out there! There is clearly a market for aged cigars out there and I'm sure everyone here pays extra for them.

Now here is my question, would you pay a premium for an 02 Shark as opposed to one from 06?
Click to expand...

You are completely entitled to compensation for the care, time, effort, and discipline(self control) you have poured into aging a beautiful cigar. Similar as if I were to get a nice bottle of wine, keep it in a cellar for 20 years, and then decide I don't want it anymore, could I not sell it for a higher price than what I originally paid for it?

On the idea of profiting off a BOTL...

Let's say I own an online shop, and I can get a box of Opux X for 50% of msrp, then sell offer it online for 90% of msrp, am I not making a profit? Am I also not a BOTL?

Then in another example for argument sake, I am someone who knows a Senior Sales Director of Fuente-Newman and he can consistantly get me boxes of Opus X for the same rate, 50% of msrp, but I offer it to you guys at 90% msrp. I don't own a store, I am not an online retailer, and I clearly state what I got them for, but I will sell them to whoever wants at the stated price, 90% msrp.

So what separates these two people: me the online retailer, and me Joe Average. Am I as an individual being a scum bag for selling these sticks for a profit (even though its still cheaper than msrp?) What really justifies an online retailer for selling for more than what he got them for?

I understand that these two examples have many variables that will NEVER come to play in reality, but entertain me for a moment.
 
Dave said:
You are completely entitled to compensation for the care, time, effort, and discipline(self control) you have poured into aging a beautiful cigar. Similar as if I were to get a nice bottle of wine, keep it in a cellar for 20 years, and then decide I don't want it anymore, could I not sell it for a higher price than what I originally paid for it?

On the idea of profiting off a BOTL...

Let's say I own an online shop, and I can get a box of Opux X for 50% of msrp, then sell offer it online for 90% of msrp, am I not making a profit? Am I also not a BOTL?

Then in another example for argument sake, I am someone who knows a Senior Sales Director of Fuente-Newman and he can consistantly get me boxes of Opus X for the same rate, 50% of msrp, but I offer it to you guys at 90% msrp. I don't own a store, I am not an online retailer, and I clearly state what I got them for, but I will sell them to whoever wants at the stated price, 90% msrp.

So what separates these two people: me the online retailer, and me Joe Average. Am I as an individual being a scum bag for selling these sticks for a profit (even though its still cheaper than msrp?) What really justifies an online retailer for selling for more than what he got them for?

I understand that these two examples have many variables that will NEVER come to play in reality, but entertain me for a moment.
Click to expand...

Why wouldn't you pass on the savings to your "BOTLs"? If you get them for 50% off MSRP, why not sell them for 50% off MSRP? I guess I don't understand what you're trying to say.
 
Usury has never been an accepted practice except for credit card companies. If you want to make a profit got to yahoo or ebay. If you want to profit the community you sell at your cost if the item is current or at the "going" rate once you've researched the item and asked people with the expertise to know.
 
The Politics of The Fuente Fuente Opus X®

Ask almost any cigar smoker today what the "holy grail" of cigars is and the vast majority will respond "Opus X[sic]!" This ever elusive tasty treat is eclipsed in rarity only by bipartisan legislature and its allure seems to be equally abused.

National politics aside, the Fuente Fuente Opus X® is a constant target of counterfeiting, price gouging, and other abuses by retailers that can overwhelm that rich, sweet, peppery flavor that we all love to enjoy. Arturo Fuente does not sanction these practices and has alerted us to beware of opportunistic malevolence.

Inflationary Price-Gouging...

By far the most common form of "robber-barony" found with purchasing the Fuente Fuente Opus X® is profiteering. This is understandable in some sense, I suppose, after all supply and demand dictates that if a retailer could get $25 for an $8 cigar, why should he not? This is America, right?

Arturo Fuente has denounced this practice as unethical and damaging to the reputations of both the retailer and the Fuente name. In addition to this position, I know as a Fuente Fuente Opus X® dealer that if I as a retailer am caught doing this that I would no longer be shipped any product.

The secondary market is also a problem here. Often retailers will sell a box at full retail (or more) to a bar, hotel, or other retailer that must double the price to make a profit. This limits availability at the local cigar shop and has destroyed legitimate box sales nationally.

More Programs!

Another common abuse of Fuente Fuente Opus X® cigar sales is program sales. This is when the retailer will sell the consumer one or two Opus X[sic] cigars as long as they also buy a certain quantity or dollar amount of other, less popular cigars. Everyone wants Fuente Fuente Opus X® cigars so why not move a few of the other brands as well?

Arturo Fuente has also described this practice as 'disturbing' and is extending not only to The Opus X[sic] but also The Hemmingway and The Don Carlos cigars. They have defined this as 'unethical' and demanded that this practice immediately cease.

Your Vote Does Count!

Arturo Fuente has promised that when these abuses are brought to their attention they will investigate and demand that these retailers stop both the price gouging and hostage programs. You can report these activities by logging on the Arturo Fuente website and contacting them directly.

When we support these practices we are validating their existence by making programs and price gouging profitable. If we only buy Fuente Fuente Opus X® from reputable dealers that are charging fair prices for the products, we secure our rights to enjoy these cigars with more frequency and we may actually be able to buy a full box once in a while! In the end we are only hurting ourselves.

I personally am reminded of another product that currently enjoys similar consumer demand; those PT Cruisers we all see occasionally and covet always. I may pay $27,xxx from another individual, but I will only pay $21,xxx from the dealer!

Uncle Bob
Click to expand...

TS does the program stuff with the "rare" stuff, I wonder why they are allowed?

Fuente can say whatever they want, they don't enforce this :(

What I'm waiting for is the "Dell Computer" of cigar manufacturers. Someone that makes cigars and sells them exclusively by internet/phone order. This way they can skip a markup and sell to the consumer at wholesale prices, or slightly above. This would also eliminate the counterfeit issue and make sure that only the best clients get the "special" releases.

In Canada, the retailers are dying a slow death, especially since you can't smoke in smoke shops anymore. Personally, I've found very few shops that have added any value to the shopping experience, 8 times out of 10 the kids working in the shops don't know anything about cigars and don't even smoke them.
 
jabba said:
The Politics of The Fuente Fuente Opus X®

Ask almost any cigar smoker today what the "holy grail" of cigars is and the vast majority will respond "Opus X[sic]!" This ever elusive tasty treat is eclipsed in rarity only by bipartisan legislature and its allure seems to be equally abused.

National politics aside, the Fuente Fuente Opus X® is a constant target of counterfeiting, price gouging, and other abuses by retailers that can overwhelm that rich, sweet, peppery flavor that we all love to enjoy. Arturo Fuente does not sanction these practices and has alerted us to beware of opportunistic malevolence.

Inflationary Price-Gouging...

By far the most common form of "robber-barony" found with purchasing the Fuente Fuente Opus X® is profiteering. This is understandable in some sense, I suppose, after all supply and demand dictates that if a retailer could get $25 for an $8 cigar, why should he not? This is America, right?

Arturo Fuente has denounced this practice as unethical and damaging to the reputations of both the retailer and the Fuente name. In addition to this position, I know as a Fuente Fuente Opus X® dealer that if I as a retailer am caught doing this that I would no longer be shipped any product.

The secondary market is also a problem here. Often retailers will sell a box at full retail (or more) to a bar, hotel, or other retailer that must double the price to make a profit. This limits availability at the local cigar shop and has destroyed legitimate box sales nationally.

More Programs!

Another common abuse of Fuente Fuente Opus X® cigar sales is program sales. This is when the retailer will sell the consumer one or two Opus X[sic] cigars as long as they also buy a certain quantity or dollar amount of other, less popular cigars. Everyone wants Fuente Fuente Opus X® cigars so why not move a few of the other brands as well?

Arturo Fuente has also described this practice as 'disturbing' and is extending not only to The Opus X[sic] but also The Hemmingway and The Don Carlos cigars. They have defined this as 'unethical' and demanded that this practice immediately cease.

Your Vote Does Count!

Arturo Fuente has promised that when these abuses are brought to their attention they will investigate and demand that these retailers stop both the price gouging and hostage programs. You can report these activities by logging on the Arturo Fuente website and contacting them directly.

When we support these practices we are validating their existence by making programs and price gouging profitable. If we only buy Fuente Fuente Opus X® from reputable dealers that are charging fair prices for the products, we secure our rights to enjoy these cigars with more frequency and we may actually be able to buy a full box once in a while! In the end we are only hurting ourselves.

I personally am reminded of another product that currently enjoys similar consumer demand; those PT Cruisers we all see occasionally and covet always. I may pay $27,xxx from another individual, but I will only pay $21,xxx from the dealer!

Uncle Bob
Click to expand...

TS does the program stuff with the "rare" stuff, I wonder why they are allowed?

Fuente can say whatever they want, they don't enforce this :(

What I'm waiting for is the "Dell Computer" of cigar manufacturers. Someone that makes cigars and sells them exclusively by internet/phone order. This way they can skip a markup and sell to the consumer at wholesale prices, or slightly above. This would also eliminate the counterfeit issue and make sure that only the best clients get the "special" releases.

In Canada, the retailers are dying a slow death, especially since you can't smoke in smoke shops anymore. Personally, I've found very few shops that have added any value to the shopping experience, 8 times out of 10 the kids working in the shops don't know anything about cigars and don't even smoke them.
Click to expand...

But if someone were to become the Dell Computer of cigars, imagine all the fun retailers it would put out of business. In the States at least, there are still a lot of good smoke shops, places where you can go, sit down, relax and chat or watch TV without having to worry about much else other than making sure you get the most out of that last inch of your cigar. That's the type of community that Wal-Mart, Dell, etc etc etc, have killed in the States and cigars are one of the last sort of havens for an old, community based retailers. Good stores have enough pressure from online fronts, the last thing that we need to do as the consumer is pound in more coffin nails.

I love going to good cigar shops and seeing what's up. I don't even mind paying a bit more since they aren't just some warehouse in Florida packing boxes, but a full fledged shop. And I think you'll find that the good stores don't gouge anyways. I honestly think that if Fuente is worried about gouging, they need to take steps to police it - and I don't think them selling near wholesale to the consumer is a good option, even though that soudns really attractive to me as a consumer.
 
Obviously, my post is coming from a Canadian's perspective, but even still, when I go to Florida every year, there aren't any shops I've been really impressed with, of the dozen or so I've visited.
 
Being a former Dell repair man... Mentioning Dell and Opus X in the same sentence is very unfair to a cigar with notorious burn issues.
 
jabba said:
Obviously, my post is coming from a Canadian's perspective, but even still, when I go to Florida every year, there aren't any shops I've been really impressed with, of the dozen or so I've visited.
Click to expand...

Try the store Gabriel works at, according to one recent thread on here, first stick's on him :)
 
I think the B & M's will still be around for along time. They provide a service to BTOL's that you just can't get from an internet site. Unfortunately the smoking bans in some places will put a damper on the experience at some shops.
 
ThankYouForNotSmoking said:
What I'm waiting for is the "Dell Computer" of cigar manufacturers. Someone that makes cigars and sells them exclusively by internet/phone order. This way they can skip a markup and sell to the consumer at wholesale prices, or slightly above. This would also eliminate the counterfeit issue and make sure that only the best clients get the "special" releases.
Click to expand...

This is very similar to the way a few boutique wineries operate, mailing lists. Latest release, and special releases, are offered to list customers first and then released to the general public. Some of these wineries actually sell out to their mailing list customers. Getting on some of these mailing list can actually take years.

:cool:
 
NorCalCigarLover said:
Getting on some of these mailing list can actually take years.

:cool:
Click to expand...

There are cigar retailers where this is the case too. There used to be a lot more until some became more concerned with higher volume sales than quality of service to a select few.
 
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