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In Vitolas Veritas?

tigger

gutter-grade asstrash
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Messages
1,747
Location
Western, CT
The Cohiba Piramide EL thread that's going on in the Island of Cuba room got my mind turning earlier - especially the discussion about whether or not $27 apiece is an outrageous price to pay for a cigar.

I see strong parallels between the pursuits of smoking fine cigars, and drinking fine wines.

Both are luxury items - agricultural products far from necessary for survival, both of which can bring great enjoyment and relaxation to their consumers (or great harm if they're overused).

The best of them usually aren't consumed so much for the various drugs they contain (nicotine and alcohol respectively), as for the sensory experiences they provide.

Both benefit from aging in a controlled environment, although there are certain cigars and certain wines which some people enjoy better young.

In moderation, both can be conducive to solitary introspection, or boisterous camaraderie.

Both involve utilizing paraphernalia to one degree or another - without cutters, corkscrews, lighters and stemware none of the aforementioned enjoyment and relaxation would be possible - paraphernalia which can range from a $.59 throwaway Bic to a $700 Dupont...a 3 cent Dixiecup to a $80 Riedel glass.

In the end you're left either dumping out ashes or taking a whiz, with very little tangible left from the experience. Hopefully, though, you're smiling at the memory of good moments had.

What have you paid for these experiences? Was it Night Train or Caymus you imbibed? A fifty cent El Producto or a $150 Cuban Davidoff you pu t to the torch? Something in between? The ranges in both price and quality are tremendous.

So a $27 cigar? Have you ever dropped a C-and-a-half on a really good bottle of wine - either at a great restaurant or to celebrate a special occasion? Had a couple of glasses from a $75 bottle? If so does a $27 cigar sound that outrageous?

If the quality is there, it doesn't to me.
 
I don't think you're a schuck!

Tim, you sized up pretty well the way I think about this obsession/addiction/hobby of mine. Thanks for putting it so eloquently.
 
Tim,

Thank you for presenting such a cogent and insightful meditation! I like the way you think and I love the way you write.

I was particularly tickled by your reduction of these luxury items to their eventual metabolic endpoints. I imagine Latour '61 feels very much the same as Beaujolais Nouveau when it's bidding our bladders a fond farewell.

Your analogy could be directly extended to artisanal cheeses, coffees, and perhaps even foie gras and salmon. Although I have personally never engaged in reverie over a slab of goose liver, I imagine someone has.

In my view, pursuit of luxury goods parallels the quest for the ne plus ultra in any given endeavor. For example, the breeding of dogs and competitive ballroom dance. I've witnessed both and I am struck by two things. First, how convergent the performances are at the very pinnacle. In the realm of dogs this is driven, in America, by conformance to the AKC breed standards. In ballroom dancing there are standards and criteria by which each dance is judged.

Second, it's fascinating to me how abstract and removed these peak performances are from their "pedestrian" or familiar manifestations. The friendly mutts and "purebreds" I've met only echo in a muddled way the ideal of "dog" as demonstrated in national dog shows. In dance, I would never try to dance the tango in the manner desirable in competition. My head would snap right off my neck if I tried.

Returning to the subject of luxury goods, arguably, all luxury goods have their basis and roots in a basic human or cultural activity. Eating, drinking, carrying things, writing and recording, protecting the feet from the ground. Foie gras, premier cru claret, Louis Vuitton, Mont Blanc, Manolo Blahnik. You hit upon this point in your comment on lighters and drinkware.

When I was recently thinking about this, the question of authenticity came to mind. And then the question of utility followed soon after. Rather than expound on this at length, let me put those two concepts on the table in the form of questions.

If a $12 bottle has the same utility as a $120 or $1,200 bottle, then what makes the latter possible, desired, and perhaps even generally considered superior?

If the humble, freshly rolled, freshly smoked cohiba of the Mesoamerican and Caribbean peoples are the authentic roots of the modern day cigar, then how authentic is a $27 limited release?

Now transpose the questions of utility and authenticity across the two examples.

I apologize for responding in quite so academic a manner. Your post has really got me thinking and provided a fertile seed for a stimulating conversation on this subject of veritas and experiential vérité.

Wilkey
 
I don't think you're a schuck!

Don't be corny Josh! :p


OUCH.

New forum Heading:

Smarty-pants academic deconstruction of cigars and other enjoyables.

By the way, great posts, both of you. I'd love to have this conversation over a nice bottle of Pinot and a fine cigar. Or perhaps a crude farmy and a 6.99 bottle from the package store.
 
I don't think you're a schuck!

Don't be corny Josh! :p


OUCH.

New forum Heading:

Smarty-pants academic deconstruction of cigars and other enjoyables.

By the way, great posts, both of you. I'd love to have this conversation over a nice bottle of Pinot and a fine cigar. Or perhaps a crude farmy and a 6.99 bottle from the package store.
"postmodern deconstruction"

Sheesh. The philo-literary heathens that populate this board. :rolleyes:







;)

Wilkey
 
Boy, you guys get deep, when you start to ponder. Terrific posts.

I can ask this regarding the $27 price of a cigar being outrageous, is a 4$-5$ cup of Starbucks outrageous? Is paying $1.50 for a bottle of spring water expensive (which is more expensive than gas). It is what the market will bear.
 
Those are great posts.

For me, my treats are my Monte #2s, and my 1926 Padrons and such. I do get thorough enjoyment out of them, and because they are something I do not indulge in every day I think they are worth every penny! Not sure about a $150 Davidoff, or a $27 Cohiba, but then again, I have not smoked one so I couldn't say! :)

Smokelaw, I would love to join in on a convo about these things. Tell ya what fellas, pick the place, I will provide the Thompsons and Thunderbird (vintage August 2006) wine! :laugh:
 
Oh Tigger, now you've opened up a can of caviar :laugh:

I do enjoy fine wines and I do enjoy fine cigars, and I do enjoy foie gras, artisanal cheese, aged balsamic vinegar, fine olive oils, and even gourmet sea salts :D . Is the price of these luxery items worth it to me? you bet!

It always makes me laugh when I read a post from someone who can't believe that some of us will plop down a twenty for a cigar. "It's not worth it!" is their usual response .... okay, well it's not worth it to you perhaps but it is to me. Sure, I'll spend $100 for a bottle of wine or even for a 60 year aged balsamic ....... have you ever had a 60 year old aged balsamic? heavenly!.

So back to your question, I've enjoyed wines priced from $15 all the way up to $1300 a bottle, I've also enjoyed cigars priced from $3 to $120. Spending $200 on a bottle of wine is not typical for me but I have done it, 1996 Salon "Le Misnel" comes to mind, and spending $20 for a cigar isn't typical for me me as well but I will do it on occasion as well.

BTW Tigger, I'm attending a "High End" tasting this weekend, I'll send you the tasting notes if your interested.

:cool:
 
David, you and I should not be allowed to meet up on our trip out to Nappa. I have a feeling you and I would allow each other to spiral down a whirlpool of food/drink/smoke based extremism to the point that our wives will run screaming from the room (unless your is also into your passions). Laurie almost shot me when I bought a hundred dollar bottle of Balsamic, then I put two drops on a nice aged cheese, and she was sold. Then on a nice aged cheese with a crisp green apple, and she was in love. She still doesn't get the cigar thing, though.

Exquisite pleasure is a good thing. To deny this requires a most subtle innovation of religo/moral subtlety that I refuse to allow. Now, to value it above other, more "worthy" goals may cause problems in one's life of course. BUT, exquisite pleasure can be free (A perfect sunrise or set on a beach with your loved ones) or expensive, like chateau-madame-poofipants that David likes or a 30 dollar (or more!) cigar. Whether a particular exquisit e pleasure is "worth it" in terms of monetary value depends on so many variables as to be nearly impossible to discuss objectively.
Now, my ex-wife believed that such pleasures, if expensive, were ON THEIR FACE immoral, as that money could go towards someone else's neccesity, and all one would lose is a luxury. I don't know if she is right or wrong. Mother Theresa would agree with her, as would many philosophers who go without, and the "live simply so that others may simply live crowd." Myself, I stand firmly acknoloding that I am not the most moral I could be. I could work as hard as I do, live in a small apartment and feed many, many starving people. I do not. I do give an unusually large percentage of my income to worthy causes, and I do enjoy the most wonderful exquisiste pleasures I can, in what I consider reasonable quantitites.

Now, I forgot why I started typing, or what it is, exactly that I have said. SO, that's it.
 
Oh boy Josh ...... I can't wait, we're gonna have a blast. My wife is also very much into my passions as well.

:cool:

Then we can all hang out and enjoy as Laurie rolls her eyes at me. She is also into the finer things, but definitely thinks I am a tad overboard.
We are working out the final dates and should know in the next few weeks exactly when we'll be in LA and what day we'll drive north. I just hope I can find a nice convertible to rent.
 
I just hope I can find a nice convertible to rent.
Main Entry: ox·y·mo·ron
Pronunciation: "äk-sE-'mor-"än
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural ox·y·mo·ra /-'mor-&/
Etymology: Late Greek oxymOron, from neuter of oxymOros pointedly foolish, from Greek oxys sharp, keen + mOros foolish
: a combination of contradictory or incongruous words (as cruel kindness); broadly : something (as a concept) that is made up of contradictory or incongruous elements
- ox·y·mo·ron·ic /-m&-'rä-nik, -mo-/ adjective
- ox·y·mo·ron·i·cal·ly /-ni-k(&-)lE/ adverb
 
Price, by itself, also contributes to the emotional pleasure. While it is possible to buy hundreds maybe thousands of different $1000 wines it isn't true with scotch so does that make scotch a "better" commodity? Of course, but I'm biased.

Pleasure by itself can't be quantified but incremental pleasure can by how much more you are willing to spend over a designated base. A Padron 40th will give the same length of enjoyment as a Padron Millennium but at a lesser cost. The price difference is a measurable increment for the expected enjoyment difference. It all fits into a standard bell curve if you track it long enough.
 
:cool:
Price, by itself, also contributes to the emotional pleasure. While it is possible to buy hundreds maybe thousands of different $1000 wines it isn't true with scotch so does that make scotch a "better" commodity? Of course, but I'm biased.

Pleasure by itself can't be quantified but incremental pleasure can by how much more you are willing to spend over a designated base. A Padron 40th will give the same length of enjoyment as a Padron Millennium but at a lesser cost. The price difference is a measurable increment for the expected enjoyment difference. It all fits into a standard bell curve if you track it long enough.

For the life of me, I have not gotten into scotch. But ahhhhhh .... Bourbon :D , now there is a great drink!

:cool:
 
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