Kayakinboy

[Diesel Grinch]

My dilemma is this.

Once your name goes on there for a reason. Your entire credibility is gone. And there will be no way to redeem yourself. Once you are assocaited with a bad rep it will stay with you forever.

I think this list should be reserved for complete scumbags..ppl who steal from botl..ppl who cheat botl and ppl who are on this board to rip botl off.

For examlpe.. Would I be considered a bad trader..

YES to some on this board i would.

I have been late in group buys..due to vendor conflicts and items being out of stock so the splits dont always go on schedule.

I have also sent out a package, someone had purchased and the usps lost it.

And I recently did a trade with a newer member. To which he was not satisfied with the conditions of the sticks...

I have made good on all of the above problems but it took extra time and $$$ out my pocket to make up for the problems.. Time and money which is precious to all of us.

But it seems like the things I have done would land me as a bad trader.. But I am not. SO i still think that list should be reserved for true dirtbags.

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Alex since I'm in the group buy I don't have a problem with what's going on. You have kept us up todate. Things happen. Plus I know where you live. :sign:

 

[preembargo]

Alex, you measure up to every standard of BOTL that I’ve seen. I’ve even used one the examples of “problems” you gave as an example how a stand up trader handles a problem.

Now, back to KB. The question is not does one end up on a bad trader list if he has problems, The issue is how does one consistently handle himself when confronted with problems. And does one learn how to avoid those problems in the future.

I’ve never had dealings with KB but I think he’s a good guy; he just has a lot of growing to do in order to avoid overextending himself the way he does. Until then you’ll never know when the deal will go bad…. but you know eventually it will. Not because he’s evil or bad or malicious, but because he’s too gung ho for trading beyond his means.

 

[Ironworker]

The problem around here is folks are too damn soft. He ain't pulled this sh*t at CF because he knows a freakin lynch mob would form within minutes of the first airing of this thread and it would have been over. No forgiving period.

I understand this isn't CF but we have to maintain some sort of damn standard around here or this type of crap just continues.

Nuff said

 

[BGarv3]

The problem around here is folks are too damn soft. He ain't pulled this sh*t at CF because he knows a freakin lynch mob would form within minutes of the first airing of this thread and it would have been over. No forgiving period.

I understand this isn't CF but we have to maintain some sort of damn standard around here or this type of crap just continues.

Nuff said

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And that is exactly what happened here when this thread first started, at the end of June. Bfree posted he had an issue and shortly there after so did Cup. The hunt was on and the fog's as normal stepped in and gave their input to KB. KB appeared to all to have made good on his part and took a major beat down in the process.

And that is exactly where the big hub-bub came from when this thread was revived, EVERYONE was under the impression that this has been corrected and some of the very some fog's that beat KB down had his back. I am not saying it is Cup's job to post follow ups on the trade since his end was sent and accepted by KB. But after posting in this thread that he had a deal go south, seeing KB stating he was going to make good on the trades he had go bad, IF I were Cup I personally would have taken the extra step to let everyone here know that KB did not make good on my deal in this very thread and I have a gut feeling it would have been resolved long before now right here at home.

And I do agree with KB, myself or anyone that is not a true fog to the boards and/or had dealings with him should not have input on him going on the list. I also agree with the statement earlier that a "Scumbag" list is too general and harsh for someone who just got in over their head if that is the case.

Just seems like double jeopardy I guess...but that is just my .04 :whistling:

:flame suit on:

 

[SamClemmons]

The scumbag list is anything but "general"... it is very specific.
KB failed to make sure his errors were corrected. He belongs on the list.
Cup is in no way responsible for keeping KB straight. Cup is a victim.

I don't like saying it but KB belongs on the list.



NA

 

[Rod]

I have a question regarding the list... Is it permanent for good, or if KB handles several trades within the next year or so and makes good on every single one, can he be removed from the list? Just a question...

I think he got way in over his head. He needs to clear every outstanding debt up now. If he is placed on the list, he should work hard to be removed. I think you know what I mean by that...

 

[morenoloco]

Kayakinboy AKA John Crowder.... Let me start off by saying that our trade went well, and I have no complaints with respect to our trade.

However, this is upsetting to me for the following reason(s).... :angry2:

You wanted to start collecting fuente cigars and hence wanted to establish a reputation on CF. Therefore, you requested that I post positive feedback on CF which I can accept. Feedback can at times be tantamount to a letter of recommendation and is essentially putting ones reputation on the line for another.

The biggest problem here is the inconsistency in your actions. Your trades are superb on one site, yet lacking on others. There is absolutely no excuse for that. It does not matter what site, a person belongs to. Whether a person is a member of CF/CP/Cwise/CW, shouldn't be a determining factor in how they are treated. The way I see it is that you gave preferential treatment to your trades on CF, while neglecting (and disrespecting) the members of this site.

John, I know that you are in college, and if you don't treat people with common courtesy (consistently) in life, then it's going to be a big problem for you in the future. I've noticed a lack of courtesy amongst many college students, and I just hope it changes.

Regardless, I have to commend you for making an effort to try to correct the errors that you have made here. Please treat all members on every board with equal respect.

I dont think you deserve to be placed on the scumbag list as I feel that you have learned from your errors.

 

[cvmfour]

The main point is that KB took advantage of this site's members. He knew that CF was a harsher critic and therefore he made sure to follow through on trades in order to avoid the Friday lynching. He took CP for granted and hoped they would forgive him and move on. It shows a lack of class and disrespect when someone repeatedly makes people wait on trades or for them to correct their end.

The bottom line is treat people how you would like to be treated KB. I hope you would never treat people that take out insurance from you like this. You get where I'm going with this

Instead of adding him to "the list," why not just edit his "custom member title" or Sig Tag saying something about his past trading. And make it so that it can't be changed and we can all come back in a year or so to vote whether it should be removed or kept.

 

[KayakinBoy]

I don't want this to look like I did bad on one site and great on another. I did most of the trades on CF during or after this all happened. Herb's package is in the mail. If I owe anyone else speak up please now.

 

[The Master]

Here is an interesting statement from KB, in my opinion it clarifies what type of person you are dealing with. I knew it was just a matter of time before he outted himself and his reasons for trying to make good.


" It should be up to Brandon and Herb to decide if I hit the list or not. I dont' see how some people who have been here a month can make that descision, most importantly, if I've never dealt with you."

Now he is trying to say only 2 people should be allowed to judge him. He is also saying that I have no business judging him because " I dont' see how some people who have been here a month can make that descision"

He also now states quite clearly that anyone who has not done business with him has no business commenting on the situation.

It is quite clear to me he really has no remorse what so ever, his apologies are hollow and transparent, his only concern is how will this affect his future trades and trading status.

Rod,you aksed if someone who is on the list can they get off if they show they have earned that right. The answer is yes, but so far anyone who has been put on the list has proven to be very deserving and they have never done anything to get themselves taken off the list.


Again this is up to this site whether they want him on the list. Inthecup, just say the word and on it he goes.

 

[Inthacup]

Harris, I think I've adequately conveyed why I think he belongs on the list. If it were up to me, he'd be on there.

 

[The Master]

Inthacup, it is done.

 

[ggiese]

The Master...

I have read over the scumbag list, and without knowing great details on the majority of those on the list, I have seen enough scumbags listed to know I agree that the people on that list are deserving of having their names included. KB may meet that standard, and if the community believes he should be placed on that list - put him there. But, in my mind, there are a number of others that to me are FAR worse than KB and are not on the list and pretty well known in the cigar board community. I guess my question is - "why?"

For example, Oblik was actually placed on that list not that long ago when he KNOWINGLY traded counterfeit ISOM's in box passes and blind trades. He was outed, acted like a total ass, and has since been proven to be a POS on a number of cigar boards (LetsTalkCigars, CigarWeekly and CigarSmokers). He has since disappeared after promising to make the bad trades right. As of about a month ago, he has not come through with correcting those bad trades. Oblik's name was later removed from the list and it is my understanding (and I may be wrong) it was because the beef came from a member of CW and therefore was unimportant because of CW's policies towards protecting scumbags...

Another glaring example is PuroBrat, who is persona non grata at a number of boards (including this board and CF). Without even digging too deeply, there are NUMEROUS examples of how he plays the wounded kitten routine so other BOTL's feel sorry for him ("I'm down on my luck", "I'm disabled", "I lost my job", "I'd love to smoke that cigar but my humidor is empty", etc.) to play on the sympathies of members of our communities - good BOTL's send him cigars - he gladly accepts them but does NOTHING to pay it back or forward. He openly admitted to receiving well over 200 cigars from others, and has not sent anything out in return because he can't afford to do so. He further admits openly about his being being a mooch in several of his "hat in hand", "feel sorry for me" posts. He plays on the sympathies of others to protect him from the big, bad FOG's who would try to out him at the new boards he frequents, so that the new board will deal with the "troublemakers" that follow him... Which oftentimes leads to confrontations with well meaning FOG's who try to warn the new board about his previous dealings. His being on the list would greatly reduce the necessity to warn anyone - reduce the flak that well-meaning BOTL's would face for outing him - because it's right there, in black and white, on the scumbag list...

Those two guys have, in my mind, have done FAR WORSE than KB - they have purposefully and meticulously taken advantage of other BOTL's. I don't believe KB has purposefully tried to take advantage of anyone. He may be in over his head with his trades, but I think his problem is largely that he needs to rethink how he goes about trading (making sure the other BOTL is satisfied, rather than assuming they're satisfied). It would seem to be a no-brainer to me, but apparently he's fallen into that "assume" syndrome (you know, ASS-U-ME - making an ASS out of U and ME)... It is my understanding that he has since learned how to package and ship cigars (a clear weakness he had early on), but still lacks good communication skills. He definitely needs to work on that - no doubt... But, in all sincerity, I'd personally like to make sure both of those other knuckleheads (Oblik and Purobrat) get on that list before KB does - and I doubt you'll find much disagreement with that. I believe if we're going to go through the trouble of doing this scumbag list - and I don't care who maintains it - we need to make sure that the scumbags are named that would take advantage of cigar boards, no matter who they are or where they may be.

I realize the list is largely for the benefit of the CF members, but it does serve a purpose to other boards as well (including CP), hence my rant in this post. I personally have used that list and regard it as the bible of on-line cigar trading - a virtual who's who of scumbags. I just ask that we be fair about this and please make sure that the list is not maintained to satisfy only a certain sector of the cigar board population...

 

[cigarsarge]

Why is it George always hits the problem right on the head.

Oblik and PB are very deserving to be on that list. More so than KB. Oblik is an out and out thief and scammer. PB is a scammer of a different kind. Offers you nothing and plays on your sympathy for free cigars.

KB has shown to be unreliable..no question. He is not a thief. He is a slacker.. no doubt.

He should refrain from trading until he can quickly fulfill his obligations.

If he winds up on the bad list it's no ones fault but his. There are far worse people than KB in the cigar world.

Maybe a slacker list added on to the scumbag list would be approiate.

 

[mrjinglesusa]

Cheat, theif..... NO

Slow to complete obligation and failure to follow through..... YES

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That about hits the nail on the thread. I guess it depends on what your definition of a "scum bag" is. Maybe change the list title to reflect that it also includes poor traders?

i.e. Poor Traders/Scum Bags

???

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Maybe a slacker list added on to the scumbag list would be approiate.

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Hmmm. Now there's an idea. :whistling:

Oh, and great post George, sums up my feelings as well.

 

[The Master]

Oblik and Purobrat will certainly be added to the list based on the say so of this BB. The reason Oblik wasn't added before was because it was coming from Cigar Weakly and they have no credibility on any subject.

Email or SS Ormazd with the info on Oblik and Purobrat.

We had a guy name Ben Cicarelli over at CF. He was a long time member and was well respected. He also had a real bad habit of making people wait on their trades. His time was more valuable than anyone elses, when he got busy everyone had to wait. Eventually he was added to the Scumbag list and rightfully so, being late and making people wait for weeks on end with poor communication is reason enough. Ben never stiffed anyone, everyone always eventually got what they were supposed to, but he needed to be put on the list so that everyone knew that if they were going to do business with him, they needed to make him send his end first.

 

[mrjinglesusa]

I really think the list title should be changed to reflect that it includes bad/slow traders. I agree they should be on the list, but I wouldn't necessarily consider them "Scum Bags". Scum Bags/Poor Traders seems a more appropriate title. Just my humble opinion.

 

[ggiese]

I leave it to the community.... Should PuroBrat and/or Oblik be added to the scumbag trader list? Any thoughts, pro or con, would be greatly appreciated.

 

[fllbrent]

Pulled this quote from the top of the "Scumbag List"

4/25/05 NOTE. I will no longer add people to this list unless the matter is Cigar Family related. Several other cigar BBs protect known scumbags, and I will no longer run interference and play the "bad cop" for them.

Seems like some wise words to me.

Do I think KB belongs on CF's "Scumbag/Bad Trader List" - NO

Do I think KB belongs on CP's "Scumbag/Bad Trader List" - YES

IMO to put traders from one board on another boards scumbag list is a flame war just waiting to happen.

Brent

 

[cigarsarge]

I leave it to the community.... Should PuroBrat and/or Oblik be added to the scumbag trader list? Any thoughts, pro or con, would be greatly appreciated.

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Yes and yes...For obvious reasons.