MRSP vs Internet Pricing

[oak]

Now I would be interested in the opinion of others on the proposed P's& T's. If you were in a pass or the pass host for that matter. How would you view them. Please don't use I want people to try cigars they haven't so .... I'm talking on a level of fairness. I will be posting some different scenerios as well. So check back often. I will be here all zee week!

I'll weigh in since you asked for additional opinions. Obviously, my opinion is biased by a lack of experience - as all of this is fairly new to me. I've been in 3 passes total - and all in the last 30 days (and only 1 one on this board) - so take this opinion for what ya paid for it. Also, sorry to be long-winded, but when U weigh in this late in a thread - it seems wise to go ahead and cover all the details of my opinion up-front.

When doing a pass, I try and tend to start with MSRP, then search a couple sites and find out the street value and both actual and perceived rarity. I don't use any one source, and if I am unfamiliar with a particular stick, I research it first - checking various sites, including this one and other boards. However, 1 or 2 domestic sites and 1 or 2 habana sources are usually plenty to know where something falls - so most sticks take 5 minutes to research max. If I'm not confident, I sometimes check in with the pass host or a FOG - but normally, I just avoid a take altogether (because if I'm not confident, there is probably a good reason for that fact). This process varies somewhat from pass to pass, and even take to take (some take 2 minutes to research - some take 2 hours).

However, I don't really think my exact process is really relevant to the question at hand. The bottom line of my opinion is: Someone took the time to put together the pass and start it off, took the time of dealing with the mental overhead (which, if your pass hits some drama - is not insignificant), and took the initial risk. I'm damn-well going to do my homework, and more importantly, I'm going to err on the side of caution. I don't need a set of precise rules for puts and takes, because I respect the original passer enough to deal with any ambiguity and make sure it is (at least) fair no matter how you look at it. I'm not interested in nickle and diming, and I prefer my plays to be clear enough that no one would ever bother to add up worth to double-check.

This post is not a dig at anyone - but I simply don't agree with the desire to boil all this down to a specific set of rules that are unambiguous. I wouldn't mind additional rules or resources, but they wouldn't be particularly relevant to me. This opinion is really no different than the rules now posted on this site for overall conduct. Do I mind them? Nope. Do I need to read them? Of course not. Pretty much all those rules are inherent (or should be, IMO) - and are part of being a respectful and professional human-being - I don't need anyone to list them for me. Now just to be clear: Creating and posting those rules was 100% the right thing, and I am glad they got up - because they were needed. However, I'm not happy that there was a need to post them in the first place.

This same logic applies to the creation of a centralized database of stick "worth". Would I love to have access to such a tool? Sure. It would save me time, but is in no way required, and I would never use any single database as my sole source for making a decision anyway. Why? Because I give a crap about the pass host and want to make sure it works out right for everyone involved.

Cheers,

- Oak

 

[TheBeast]

I'm going to err on the side of caution. I don't need a set of precise rules for puts and takes, because I respect the original passer enough to deal with any ambiguity and make sure it is (at least) fair no matter how you look at it. I'm not interested in nickle and diming, and I prefer my plays to be clear enough that no one would ever bother to add up worth to double-check.

I haven't jumped into this conversation for one reason. I have just been confused to all hell why this has blown up into such an issue. I've been here 2 years...and have never seen this much of a problem with P's/T's. Not to say there hasn't ever been a few situations...but for the most part...people pretty much got the hang of it rather quickly and there was never so much debate about "references" to use.

Which brings me to the quote above. Oak not only hit it the nail on the head...he drove that nail right through the damn board. This is EXACTLY why there was no issue in the past. This how the members thought and went about their business...this is why there was no problem. Which leaves me to beleive that people aren't thinking that way anymore...and if anything are making it harder than it needs to be.

Just an observation...and my...well you know....pocket change.

 

[cohibasurfer]

Oak and Beast, All though you made valid points. Your arguments and statements seemed to be centered around attitude. And your both right, If everyone who set fingers in CP had that mind set, I wouldn't be wasting time posting all this BS. Now Oak you did however mention your way of checking out values of different sticks ( thanks) And that is what 1 of the 2 part question here is. However...You refrained from answering the questions on the Bahia, Padron Anny swap! I wish you would come back and finish.

And Beasty Boy. You didn't post on either one. This thread is a spill over from some of the earlier topics of which your comments were directed. Which I whole heartedley agree with mind you. But your post wasn't centered around this actual topic at hand. That topic has been centered on and agreed by the majority here already. What I'm trying to do is give info for the newer, less experience members. Why am I being so dedicated to this? Well I'm trying to help those that want to join passes, but are leary to do so because they are not satisfied with the information and are afraid they might make a mistake or two ( which is fine if you'll listen and learn when it's done by the way).

Now this topic deals with the MRSP vs internet pricing. I don't care what you post. Yeah.. or.. neah! It's all about finding a solution for the inexperienced members that want to pass. To make it more compfortable for them, because they might understand a point or two. As long as vetrans here have more than one guideline, it's going to create problems for new passers. I hope everyone see's what I'm trying to accomplish here. It's not about me! It's about helping new members. And unless the older members here can make it more clear cut, we are going to have mixed emotions, which in turn creats animosity.

Lastley, this topic is to help others that might need and want the help. It's info for those that don't "ALREADY KNOW". I've had at least 20 PM's from new registers with questions. I'm giving everyone a chance to help set up the answers.

So please...and I did say please! Any future posters please read the topic and the proposed question. If you want to discuss anything else, that's fine. But it would be nice to at least answer the initial question.

 

[gr8full2day]

This is EXACTLY why there was no issue in the past. This how the members thought and went about their business...this is why there was no problem. Which leaves me to beleive that people aren't thinking that way anymore...and if anything are making it harder than it needs to be.

Just an observation...and my...well you know....pocket change.

I always thought you should leave the box better than you found it!! Other than that, it seems this very exhaustive, informative discussion is a very creative form of post padding..JK...I think if we simply, in all aspects of life, put in more than we take out all will be well!! Just the crusty $.015 of a FNG!!

 

[57Strat]

How would you say that sized up if it was in a pass?

I would not consider that a fair trade.

There are a lot of cigars out there that have a high MSRP that are just not worth it.

The Padrons and Fuentes make a superior cigar than the other two, in my opinion.

It is not always about price. It takes time to learn which cigars are considered premium and which ones are not, even though they may be priced the same. When in doubt, ask someone...

 

[Lumberg]

re internet vs. MSRP:

For widely available cigars, I think it is a no-brainer that internet going price should be used over MSRP or local store prices, and here's why:

We are on the internet. The one thing that we all have in common is that we all have internet access. And I think it is safe to say most of us order a good portion of our cigars over the internet.

If you don't have a credit card, or get your cigars only from your local store for whatever reason, should you be punished? No. But at the same time it's not fair that one set of rules applies to most of the members of a pass, but when it gets to you a different set of rules applies. Just cos you don't shop online doesn't mean you can't look up what the rest of us pay for cigars; after all, you are a member of this site.

That said, I think the main issue that has surfaced re P&Ts hasn't been so much value of widely available cigars. The issue is more with the so-called rare cigars and the relative worth assigned to different limited production cigars. That is a much thornier issue, which I am not prepared to address at this time, but woudl like to see discussed.

 

[cohibasurfer]

So... Mr Cole! Glad to see your post my friend. Can I take it then that the MRSP does have a flaw IYO? It would then have a some what negitive effect for the newer members?

Because you know I agree with you That's why I made the example.

PS. Thanks Lumberg for posting info on the topic. Nice post. :thumbs:

Gr8 ... you missed the topic. We know the box should be left better. Redundant. How do we get it there?

 

[ricmac25]

First of all, to answer your question I would say that the proposed puts and takes are NOT fair. If I were the pass master I would not allow such a thing. I think PAMs and AF DOn Carlos (although not a favorite of mine) have an advantage in the reputation department. Obviously, to each his own, but I think the consensus would be on the side of the PAM and the AF.

When I first joined CP I wondered what would be the best way to do puts and takes. I don't remember who recommended going to a few sites and comparing prices. Taking an average of a couple of sites if you will. I wholeheartedly agree with Oak on what he said in Bold lettering, so I won't repeat that.

I think the best advice I was given was "when in doubt, ask". I would prefer my pass were delayed a day because answers were being waited for, than for the pass to be shipped off with a misunderstanding and then having to correct the matter.

Ask FOGs. Ask the pass master. Ask. Ask. Ask.



That's my opinion.

 

[Fast4Dr]

Ask FOGs. Ask the pass master. Ask. Ask. Ask.

Couldn't have said it better myself

Typically when I am in a pass I use cigarprice.com for prices. I will go by the "mode" (I think) price for both puts and takes. One store my have a great price on a particular cigar where most othere retailers may have it listed $1-$2 higher and some retailers have it listed $5-$6 higher. So basically I tend to use the price that is most consistent around vendors.

Just my $.02 ???

 

[57Strat]

MSRP definitely has a flaw and that is why one cannot just base their trades on it alone. If that method was used exclusively by a new member, sooner or later, it will turn out to be a problem.

When in doubt, ask someone that has been around for a while.

Someone like you, my friend.

 

[cohibasurfer]

LOL @ Devin.

It took awhile... but the things I watched and was trying to be taught, finally sunk in! Better late than never. :sign:

 

[PhatAsh]

I have learned a lot about the P&T process lately and the number one thing I learned is "When in doubt ask!" I will never again put myself is a position of uncertainty again. I placed myself in that position by doing my P&Ts away from home (kind of unprepared) which created a real bone head mistake. So I agree with everyone on that note.

I will be using internet pricing and pass fedback from now on. I think internet pricing is a better tool than local shop pricing. This opinion takes into consideration shop mark-ups and taxes. I am in Maryland wich has a crazy OTP (other tobacco product) tax that I think scews everything for comparison purposes. And I also agree with Lumberg in that we all have access to common price reference on the net a.k.a a level playing field.

I also agree that the original philosophy of this site and the pass process should never be forgotten. Enough said because I KNOW we all agree on this!

Cohiba,
In terms of the scenario I would say the P&Ts are not quite on the money so I would refer to the pass master and others in the pass/board.

My opinion to those who suggested an added stick, I have also learned about the quantity for quality issue and will never go there unless approved by the pass master! So I think padding the P&Ts with an extra stick to make up value is wrong (unless approved by pass originator). If you are however just being generous to the pass than sticks should be above and beyond the P&Ts or go into a host bag/box.

Anyway, thats my .02

P.S.
And Cohiba, I to think this has become an issue more of late that never used tio be a big problem but I am certain it will pass like all things and I certainly do not see a problem discussing the topic. Besides, isn't that also what the founding members had in mind, maintaining and progressing the site through mature clear headed discussion!? GOOD SHOW BROTHER! :sign:

 

[oak]

Oak and Beast, All though you made valid points. Your arguments and statements seemed to be centered around attitude. And your both right, If everyone who set fingers in

Yup - My comments were entirely centered around attitude and respect. IMO - that is entirely what this thread is about - and only by fostering a culture of the right attitude and overall respect - we'll just apply rules upon rules until this whole process has lost everything that makes it enjoyable.

And to answer your original question - yes I would find the P/T example you gave to be unfair. I will also say that I'd find the P/T's questionable if they were reversed. As I said before, if it is so close that you have to count the pennies, argue, debate, and ask a bunch of FOGs along the way - then it is probably a crappy play.

I leverage the Knowledge-of-the-FOGs(tm) when I need information on rarity and perceived rarity, not when I'm looking for them to help me split hairs and get a justification for my crappy play. And another thing: If you ask a FOG for advice on any of these plays, my experience is that they'll tell you to stop making marginal plays in the first place and ask why you're counting so close.

Do I think we need more guidelines and rules? Probably. But that's unfortunate. Personally, I thought having 3+ years of archived messages on what are good and bad plays was enough bloody direction. Took me about 2-3 hours of lurking and reading old posts to know I'd like it here. Wanna know the post that put me over the top and caused me to create my username?

Here's an oldy for you...

Does that look like the work of a FNG looking to nickel and dime his way through a pass? Or a FNG making sure it worked out right for everyone? You want rules, you want guidelines?? Pick 3 FOGs at random and skim through the first few months of their time here. Still think this is a hairy topic with lots of judgement calls in the process? Bah. (Ok - maybe that's a bad choice of an old post, as Devin is nuts and so far above a "minimum standard" that we look like ants from that height... but you get my point... )

<begin tongue in cheek mode>
Lastly, my tone of frustration isn't directed at you CohibaSurfer - I'm aware when someone is shoving me through the socratic method and I'm participating because I think it is valuable. However, I am curious when you changed from just telling people they sucked to becoming a school-teacher... :sign:
<end tongue in cheek mode>

- Oak

 

[waliguy]

I'll keep it simple. IMHO I think many people make too big of a deal about puts vs. takes. I am impressed that people take the time to list msrp prices in the pass...it probably helps the newbies. But MSRP to internet pricing....it doesn't much matter.

Involved with many of my own passes, and participated in lots....my mantra is to always have tried to put in more than I took...probably to ratio of 1.5:1 (puts:takes).

But that's just me. I base that value on my experience with cigars overall...retail, internet, and MSRP.

If you error on the side of generosity, you'll not have a problem...ever.

 

[cohibasurfer]

LOL... @ oaks school teacher comment!

Well... I still will tell someone they suck if they jump in a pass and make it obvious what their intentions are! Or if they are members that claim to know better. Doesn't bother me how many people say " Nice play" ! I belong to a couple of boards, and I've watched some smooth people come through them. I've also learned the hard way. Had a pass snagged and then rebanded some Dogs to replace some rare puts after a few elite members cornered him to make it right. Actually the Term Teacher still gives me shivers!
And to that, I have to say, I'd prefer the term - Pass Trade System Organiser- Mr. Oaktaganiser

 

[oak]

I've also learned the hard way. Had a pass snagged and then rebanded some Dogs to replace some rare puts after a few elite members cornered him to make it right.

:lookup: :0

Now that gives me the shivers. Illustrates my initial comment that my opinions are limited by my experience... man, that story boggles the mind. :angry:

 

[Bat_Chief]

Here's an oldy for you...

Wow, now there's a guy who "get's it" and walks the walk. Thanks for that link, Oak. :thumbs:

Not only is it a shining example by Mr. Cole of respect for the other brother's of the Pass, but it reminds us that we are all entitled to a learning curve. With one stipulation......'ya DO have to learn!

 

[Wascal]

Guess I'll come into the ring on this one also. As for the mentioned trades, no they do not add up to me. If they add up in the pass as a fair trade depends on the passmasters (PM) instructions. How did the PM set up the pass, msrp to msrp?, value for value? As stated before, if in doubt, ASK.

Most sticks in a pass aren't a problem, use ONE source for pricing. Doesn't make any difference where you bought them as long as the same place is used for both takes and puts. All of the takes and puts from the same source. You can't use one site for one take and then a different site thats cheaper for the next.

Now the next will probably get me in trouble. If you don't know the value of a BTL, a original release WOAM, or a '98 Trini, to name a couple, what are you doing in a pass that these are in? If I look at the lineup of a pass and see mostly sticks I don't have the puts for I'm not going to ask to play. This isn't hard to figure out folks. If you try to find a price for a stick or two and no one has them..... they must be rare. If you can find a msrp for a stick and the only place you can find them for sale is a auction site for 3 or 4 times the msrp shouldn't this tell you something?

Ok, that more than I'v posted in a couple of months a one time. Probably more than I should have. :0

 

[Triple_D]

MSRP
Take - Padron Anniversary Superior MSRP $7.30 **** rating

Put -BAHIA MADURO GOLD Belicoso MSRP $7.50 **** rating

Take - AF Don Carlos #2 MSRP $11.00 **** rating

put - Romeo Y Julieta Vintage VI Triangular MSRP $11.50 **** rating

Using MSRP and the provided ratings by the customers the trade is probably fair especially if one puts an extra cigar in the mix as a gesture of generosity as many do. My next step would be consulting with a FOG, Pass Host, and any others I could get time from.

Good luck finding the retail prices for these as CI doesn't list them. I finally found them at Famous smoke after searching several sites.
......................................................................................................

RETAIL via Famous smoke.com
Take - Padron Anniversary Superior $9.80

Put -BAHIA MADURO GOLD Belicoso $8.79

Take - AF Don Carlos #2 $10.99

put - Romeo Y Julieta Vintage VI Triangular $7.40

Although both puts are less than the takes, the DC is a little more obvious and probably of concern to you. But I also noted that both P/T's were rated quite similiar on the site by the posters so at least one would be putting equal quality in both situations. Again, a check with the host would clear any potential questions and a nice extra stick would help out the situation. It would also depend on the taste of the Host. While some may value the DC more because of its stronger smoke, the RyJ might be valued by others who prefer a medium cigar. The Fuente as expected is higher retailed price because of the share of the market A/F has due to marketing techniques (limiting supply, etc.).

Again, Protical calls for all P/T's to be posted for qualification and a check with the Host, fog, etc. is always appropriate.

Emodox said it well to. Padding would have taken care of the retail question.

By those #'s it's clearly a bad trade. MSRP is only a suggested price. The real price is what they really cost. I would see that trade as $1.01 short for the first and $3.59 short on the second scenario. Cut and dry, it's that easy

 

[emodx]

Now the next will probably get me in trouble. If you don't know the value of a BTL, a original release WOAM, or a '98 Trini, to name a couple, what are you doing in a pass that these are in? If I look at the lineup of a pass and see mostly sticks I don't have the puts for I'm not going to ask to play. This isn't hard to figure out folks. If you try to find a price for a stick or two and no one has them..... they must be rare. If you can find a msrp for a stick and the only place you can find them for sale is a auction site for 3 or 4 times the msrp shouldn't this tell you something?

Now that is a good point that some of the newer people should heed. If you jump in a pass that you could make a marginal pass in at the begining, what are you going to do if you are at the end of the pass? ....