billbaker3
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Open Carry
- Thread starter billbaker3
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Spad31
Previously, on Battlestar Galactica...
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I've lived in an open carry state, and I still felt odd. Got way too many looks for my liking. I've been legally able to carry concealed for years, and I do. I prefer the general populace not knowing whether and what I'm carrying. My opinion, of course, your mileage may vary.
Trey
Trey
SiriusBlack
Always make it look easy...
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I have had a conceal and carry permit for 10 years or so. There are lots of debates on the open carry issue. Some even argue that the way laws are written laws allow you to carry concealed. Therefore to carry open is theorectically lawful. That said in most cases I have heard about of guys trying this but expect to be arrested. Some have ultimately beat the cases after tons of lawyer fees and days in court. So is it worth it to prove a point?
elderboy02
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You can open carry here in OH, but I prefer to conceal carry. I don't want the criminals knowing who has a gun. Keep 'em guessing :thumbs:
gunsandcigars88
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If you open carry people know you have a gun. That could deter a situation from going bad. Or if you are not constantly watching everything you may give an unarmed subject who wants to cause problems a gun. I would still go with concealed carry.
B
B
Zocco987
New Member
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AZ is open carry but I prefer concealment. IMO open carry makes people uneasy and not everyone is a fan of guns. In certain areas in town if you open carry you are a target for people to talk garbage to you and trying to start a fight. As odd as that sounds.
Mr Peat
Rich Perelman, "Loren you have a Godlike Presence.
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I also live in a State that allows Open Carry. I used to so I could get accustomed to the extra weight for when I got my CCP. Open carry opens up a touchy subject. I only did it from the house to my car and never out in the public due to some jack ass afraid of guns would call the cops and make up some story. Yes, this actually happened to me back in 1998. Of course they let me go without a ticket after they heard my story but I was detained for nearly an hour in hand cuffs.
So would I recommend it? Hell no...you are just asking for trouble. Its better to get the Concealed Carry Permit so no one even knows or suspects you are packing heat.
So would I recommend it? Hell no...you are just asking for trouble. Its better to get the Concealed Carry Permit so no one even knows or suspects you are packing heat.
SmokeSignal
Diabolical Mastermind
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- May 1, 2008
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The legality of open carry varies greatly from state to state. Better check first with a local Michigan gun owners group, or the Michigan forum on AR15.com
For example open carry is legal here in most of Pennsylvania, (very few people know this), but you can still get in a bad situation with local police.
For example open carry is legal here in most of Pennsylvania, (very few people know this), but you can still get in a bad situation with local police.
Mr Peat
Rich Perelman, "Loren you have a Godlike Presence.
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Some will remember the incident I went through answering my door with a gun. It was a long process which started in Nov 2006 and finally ended in July 2007. I speak from personal experience when it deals with guns. The gist of it was this. A girl pounded on my door like a maniac. I couldn't identify who it was so I grabbed my revolver. She called the cops saying I threatened her and the whole 9 yards. I was arrested and charged with Disorderly Conduct.
A week later they dropped the charges and issued a Unlawful use of a Weapon charge. The cops never took the guns and they had 3 chances to do so. I mean after all it is evidence right? The last chance they had was when I asked to be released on my own word and told the Judge they could have the City Cops or the Sheriff's Department come in to confiscate them till it was all settled in court.
After all that time and 8 days in a Prison Medical Ward, they dropped the charges down to Disturbing of the Peace and I paid the fine. I could have fought it but I didn't want to give the Prosecutor a chance to pull a rabbit out of his ass.
Moral of the story...Just get a Concealed Carry Permit and eliminate any chances of finding out how retarded the system really is or the population.
A week later they dropped the charges and issued a Unlawful use of a Weapon charge. The cops never took the guns and they had 3 chances to do so. I mean after all it is evidence right? The last chance they had was when I asked to be released on my own word and told the Judge they could have the City Cops or the Sheriff's Department come in to confiscate them till it was all settled in court.
After all that time and 8 days in a Prison Medical Ward, they dropped the charges down to Disturbing of the Peace and I paid the fine. I could have fought it but I didn't want to give the Prosecutor a chance to pull a rabbit out of his ass.
Moral of the story...Just get a Concealed Carry Permit and eliminate any chances of finding out how retarded the system really is or the population.
Turk10mm
Just smokin
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- 782
As much of a gun proponent that I am, I personally don't like open carry. I've open carried during Hurricanes around here (illegally in one instance). Once under the approval of the Harris County Sheriff, as I was working in a fire station during a hurricane just after Katrina. We all saw what desperate people will do.
But as a matter of day to day life, I just can't see open carrying. I have a concealed holster that sits just in front of my junk and hides my G27 quite nicely, unless someone was to grab my junk. I can draw it almost as fast as from a level 3 retention holster, which is the only way I'd ever open carry a firearm. This adds measures to the holster to help prevent someone from pulling it out, other than myself.
Its just going to freak people out, get the cops called on you, and let a bad guy know who to take out first.
In many states, open carry is legal, but disturbing the peace is not. So if someone gets scared and calls the PoPo on you, you can easily be arrested for disturbing the peace just as if you started screaming obscenities in public.
Concealed is the only way to go. I carry or am within close reach of a firearm almost 24/7. I don't need to open carry to do that.
But as a matter of day to day life, I just can't see open carrying. I have a concealed holster that sits just in front of my junk and hides my G27 quite nicely, unless someone was to grab my junk. I can draw it almost as fast as from a level 3 retention holster, which is the only way I'd ever open carry a firearm. This adds measures to the holster to help prevent someone from pulling it out, other than myself.
Its just going to freak people out, get the cops called on you, and let a bad guy know who to take out first.
In many states, open carry is legal, but disturbing the peace is not. So if someone gets scared and calls the PoPo on you, you can easily be arrested for disturbing the peace just as if you started screaming obscenities in public.
Concealed is the only way to go. I carry or am within close reach of a firearm almost 24/7. I don't need to open carry to do that.
billbaker3
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I do plan on taking my class soon but like I said stumbled onto that site and it was pretty intresting. They talk about when they did carry in the open and what people said, if anything.
The cops can not hold you legaly here in Michigan unless they have proof of you doing something. Now will they mess with you? Most likely, but in MI they only have around 20 minutes to hold you if they have no reason to. If they hold you over that you can actually take them to court over that.
They can not call it disturbing the peace since open carry is legal here.
Read this:
YOU CAN OPENLY CARRY A HANDGUN IN MICHIGAN*
1) Any law abiding citizen of the State of Michigan who owns a safety inspected handgun may openly carry (in a holster) said firearm in all places not explicitly exempt by law with or without a CPL. Private property rules over-ride state law in regards to firearm possession.
MSP Legal Update Newsletters: April 2007 and June 2008: Did You Know: …It is not illegal under Michigan law to openly carry a pistol…...
PLACES off limits to firearms without a CPL: Sec. 234d (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following: a) A Bank. b) A church. c) A court. d) A theatre. e) A sports arena. f) A day care center. g) A hospital. h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act. (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
b) A peace officer.
c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.
2) If you don’t have a CPL, you must transport your handgun as prescribe by law.
Michigan State Police Web Site. Transporting a pistol in a motor vehicle?
Answer A person is now permitted to transport a pistol for a lawful purpose if the owner or occupant of the vehicle is the registered owner of the firearm and the pistol is unloaded and in a closed case in the trunk of the vehicle. If the vehicle does not have a trunk, the pistol may be in the passenger compartment of the vehicle unloaded and inaccessible to the occupants of the vehicle. The law defines ‘lawful purpose’ as: 1) While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area. 2) While transporting a pistol to or from home or place of business and a place of repair. 3) While moving goods from one place of residence or business to another place of residence or business. 4) While transporting a licensed pistol to or from a law enforcement agency for the purpose of having a safety inspection performed (registering the pistol) or to have a law enforcement official take possession of the pistol. 5) While en route to or from home or place of business to a gun show or place of purchase or sale. 6) While en route to or from home to a public shooting facility or land where the discharge of firearms is permitted. 7) While en route to or from home to private property where the pistol is to be used as permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.
3) No local ordinance concerning firearm possession is enforceable due to Michigan’s preemption law.
In 1990, the Michigan legislature enacted MCL 123.1102 which provides, in pertinent part: A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.
THE MICHIGAN COURT of APPEALS CONCLUDED: April 29, 2003 9:10 am. v No. 242237 In sum, we conclude that § 1102 is a statute that specifically imposes a prohibition on local units of government from enacting and enforcing any ordinances or regulations pertaining to the transportation and possession of firearms, and thus preempts any ordinance or regulation of a local unit of government concerning these areas.
Further, we conclude that the specific language of the 2000 amendments to MCL 28.421 et seq., particularly §§ 5c and 5o, which were adopted more than a decade after the enactment of § 1102, do not repeal § 1102 or otherwise reopen this area to local regulation of the carrying of firearms.17 Accordingly, we hold that the Ferndale ordinance is preempted by state law and, consequently, we reverse.
MCRGO v. Ferndale: The Michigan Court of Appeals held that local units of government may not impose restrictions upon firearms possession.
4) Brandishing and disturbing the peace are not an offense while lawfully openly carrying a firearm.
ADVISORY NOTE: Though this section on disturbing the peace does not deal with firearms, due to the nature of this code, this law has been cited by officers to suppress or discourage lawful open carry. Since a person who is not licensed to carry concealed MUST open carry their firearms on foot in order to avoid criminal charge, nor is there any duty for anyone licensed to conceal their handgun, open carry is not disorderly conduct. The open carrying of firearms is not by itself threatening, nor does it cause a hazardous or physically offensive condition.
BRANDISHING Opinion No. 7101 February 6, 2002: …In the absence of any reported Michigan appellate court decisions defining "brandishing," it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions…..the term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish." This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions…the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, "brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner." Applying these definitions to your question, it is clear that a reserve police officer, regardless whether he or she qualifies as a "peace officer," when carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view, is not waving or displaying the firearm in a threatening manner. Thus, such conduct does not constitute brandishing a firearm in violation of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code. It is my opinion, therefore, that…by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public.
5) A person openly carrying a firearm on foot in a legal manner when approached by a police officer and questioned where the only reason for the questioning is because of the openly carried firearm need not give that officer their name and address. No license or ID is required to openly carry a firearm. It is your option to provide ID/CPL.
ADVISORY NOTE: Each situation is different. We recommend you cooperate with all lawful questions and requests. Ask the officer if the reason you are being detained is for the legal open carry of a firearm. After giving your name and address, ask if you are free to go, ask if you are being detained. If they continue to ask questions about ID and why you are carrying a gun, repeat the question, am I free to go? Am I being detained? If the situation escalates ask for a supervisor. Remember the officer can arrest you for anything, don’t resist the arrest. After an illegal arrest you may have legal options you can employ.
6) An AG opinion, the MSP and Senator Prusi stated that a person with a CPL can carry a firearm openly in the exempted areas listed in MCL 750.234d. For example, with permission from the owner you can openly carry a handgun in a bar, sports arena, etc.
Opinion No. 7097 January 11, 2002… A person licensed by this state… to carry a concealed weapon….By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute.
“Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.”
Sincerely, Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section, (517) 336-6441
“…My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison and has received some answers to share with you. According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are a licensed CPL holder. I was advised that your information was correct that MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter…” Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District"
ADVISORY NOTE: Before carrying a handgun we recommend that you become familiar with all state and federal laws in regards to firearm laws and the use of deadly force. Taking a self defense/firearm course is recommended. Michigan has a self defense act PA No. 309 July 18, 2006 that states you do not have to retreat from a threat, but you must meet the legal requirements before you engage in the use of deadly force.
The cops can not hold you legaly here in Michigan unless they have proof of you doing something. Now will they mess with you? Most likely, but in MI they only have around 20 minutes to hold you if they have no reason to. If they hold you over that you can actually take them to court over that.
They can not call it disturbing the peace since open carry is legal here.
Read this:
YOU CAN OPENLY CARRY A HANDGUN IN MICHIGAN*
1) Any law abiding citizen of the State of Michigan who owns a safety inspected handgun may openly carry (in a holster) said firearm in all places not explicitly exempt by law with or without a CPL. Private property rules over-ride state law in regards to firearm possession.
MSP Legal Update Newsletters: April 2007 and June 2008: Did You Know: …It is not illegal under Michigan law to openly carry a pistol…...
PLACES off limits to firearms without a CPL: Sec. 234d (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following: a) A Bank. b) A church. c) A court. d) A theatre. e) A sports arena. f) A day care center. g) A hospital. h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act. (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
b) A peace officer.
c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.
2) If you don’t have a CPL, you must transport your handgun as prescribe by law.
Michigan State Police Web Site. Transporting a pistol in a motor vehicle?
Answer A person is now permitted to transport a pistol for a lawful purpose if the owner or occupant of the vehicle is the registered owner of the firearm and the pistol is unloaded and in a closed case in the trunk of the vehicle. If the vehicle does not have a trunk, the pistol may be in the passenger compartment of the vehicle unloaded and inaccessible to the occupants of the vehicle. The law defines ‘lawful purpose’ as: 1) While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area. 2) While transporting a pistol to or from home or place of business and a place of repair. 3) While moving goods from one place of residence or business to another place of residence or business. 4) While transporting a licensed pistol to or from a law enforcement agency for the purpose of having a safety inspection performed (registering the pistol) or to have a law enforcement official take possession of the pistol. 5) While en route to or from home or place of business to a gun show or place of purchase or sale. 6) While en route to or from home to a public shooting facility or land where the discharge of firearms is permitted. 7) While en route to or from home to private property where the pistol is to be used as permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.
3) No local ordinance concerning firearm possession is enforceable due to Michigan’s preemption law.
In 1990, the Michigan legislature enacted MCL 123.1102 which provides, in pertinent part: A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.
THE MICHIGAN COURT of APPEALS CONCLUDED: April 29, 2003 9:10 am. v No. 242237 In sum, we conclude that § 1102 is a statute that specifically imposes a prohibition on local units of government from enacting and enforcing any ordinances or regulations pertaining to the transportation and possession of firearms, and thus preempts any ordinance or regulation of a local unit of government concerning these areas.
Further, we conclude that the specific language of the 2000 amendments to MCL 28.421 et seq., particularly §§ 5c and 5o, which were adopted more than a decade after the enactment of § 1102, do not repeal § 1102 or otherwise reopen this area to local regulation of the carrying of firearms.17 Accordingly, we hold that the Ferndale ordinance is preempted by state law and, consequently, we reverse.
MCRGO v. Ferndale: The Michigan Court of Appeals held that local units of government may not impose restrictions upon firearms possession.
4) Brandishing and disturbing the peace are not an offense while lawfully openly carrying a firearm.
ADVISORY NOTE: Though this section on disturbing the peace does not deal with firearms, due to the nature of this code, this law has been cited by officers to suppress or discourage lawful open carry. Since a person who is not licensed to carry concealed MUST open carry their firearms on foot in order to avoid criminal charge, nor is there any duty for anyone licensed to conceal their handgun, open carry is not disorderly conduct. The open carrying of firearms is not by itself threatening, nor does it cause a hazardous or physically offensive condition.
BRANDISHING Opinion No. 7101 February 6, 2002: …In the absence of any reported Michigan appellate court decisions defining "brandishing," it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions…..the term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish." This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions…the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, "brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner." Applying these definitions to your question, it is clear that a reserve police officer, regardless whether he or she qualifies as a "peace officer," when carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view, is not waving or displaying the firearm in a threatening manner. Thus, such conduct does not constitute brandishing a firearm in violation of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code. It is my opinion, therefore, that…by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public.
5) A person openly carrying a firearm on foot in a legal manner when approached by a police officer and questioned where the only reason for the questioning is because of the openly carried firearm need not give that officer their name and address. No license or ID is required to openly carry a firearm. It is your option to provide ID/CPL.
ADVISORY NOTE: Each situation is different. We recommend you cooperate with all lawful questions and requests. Ask the officer if the reason you are being detained is for the legal open carry of a firearm. After giving your name and address, ask if you are free to go, ask if you are being detained. If they continue to ask questions about ID and why you are carrying a gun, repeat the question, am I free to go? Am I being detained? If the situation escalates ask for a supervisor. Remember the officer can arrest you for anything, don’t resist the arrest. After an illegal arrest you may have legal options you can employ.
6) An AG opinion, the MSP and Senator Prusi stated that a person with a CPL can carry a firearm openly in the exempted areas listed in MCL 750.234d. For example, with permission from the owner you can openly carry a handgun in a bar, sports arena, etc.
Opinion No. 7097 January 11, 2002… A person licensed by this state… to carry a concealed weapon….By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute.
“Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.”
Sincerely, Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section, (517) 336-6441
“…My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison and has received some answers to share with you. According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are a licensed CPL holder. I was advised that your information was correct that MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter…” Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District"
ADVISORY NOTE: Before carrying a handgun we recommend that you become familiar with all state and federal laws in regards to firearm laws and the use of deadly force. Taking a self defense/firearm course is recommended. Michigan has a self defense act PA No. 309 July 18, 2006 that states you do not have to retreat from a threat, but you must meet the legal requirements before you engage in the use of deadly force.
Turk10mm
Just smokin
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2007
- Messages
- 782
Bill,
Not arguing because I don't know the law there. But disturbing the peace has nothing to do with the legal carry of a firearm. You can disturb the peace in a lot of legal ways. But as soon as someone becomes "disturbed" a cop may use his discretion to arrest you.
Yelling is perfectly legal, but if you stand up and do it in Church, I bet you'll get arrested for disturbing the peace.
Not arguing because I don't know the law there. But disturbing the peace has nothing to do with the legal carry of a firearm. You can disturb the peace in a lot of legal ways. But as soon as someone becomes "disturbed" a cop may use his discretion to arrest you.
Yelling is perfectly legal, but if you stand up and do it in Church, I bet you'll get arrested for disturbing the peace.
Unclebillybonz
Member
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2008
- Messages
- 574
My state is not an 'open carry' state. I have my state issued CCP and am awaiting my CCP from UT which between the two gives me as close to national concealed carry as you can get with out being a federal LEO I believe.
I don't think I would open carry even if I could. Drawing that kind of attention to yourself IMO is not a great idea.
I don't think I would open carry even if I could. Drawing that kind of attention to yourself IMO is not a great idea.
billbaker3
Member
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2008
- Messages
- 752
Agreed. If a cop decided to hound you, you would have to stay calm. If you got aggressive he would most likely detain you.
Sunshine86
Nicaraguan Whore
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2008
- Messages
- 362
I've never really like the idea of open carry--it just seems like it would have the potential to cause more problems than it would solve. That said, I do intend on obtaining a CCW permit when I turn 21.
I think even if you could carry open your better off concealed. You don't have to worry about anti gun people calling the cops on you and alleging you threatened them with a gun or pointed it at them (It doesn't matter if this really happened or not its your word against there's and there probably going to stand in favor of the person without a gun). You also have to worry about crazy people who may want to attempt to take your gun, which would require you to be alert at all times as well as have a good retention system. You may also have people mistake you for law enforcement and they may want you to get involved in situations that you shouldn't or are incapable of dealing with. Essentially if the gun is concealed the old saying "what people don't know won't hurt them" applies. Plus you have the advantage of surprise on your side in the case you would actually have to draw your weapon.
Unclebillybonz
Member
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2008
- Messages
- 574
what kind of holster do you use for that?
I carry concealed. It is technically legal with a concealed carry permit to carry open in Iowa but nobody does it.
I can see why people do carry both open and concealed. Concealed will give you a tactical advantage given that a bad guy won't know you are armed. But, I do believe that open carry in the right situations would deter crime. Say, everyone at a herf is open carrying, a bad guy walks in planning to rob the place, sees 15 side arms on men and women comfortable carrying them.
I can see why people do carry both open and concealed. Concealed will give you a tactical advantage given that a bad guy won't know you are armed. But, I do believe that open carry in the right situations would deter crime. Say, everyone at a herf is open carrying, a bad guy walks in planning to rob the place, sees 15 side arms on men and women comfortable carrying them.