Second thoughts

[NullSmurf]

Cognitive dissonance!

 

[grateful1]

Cognitive dissonance!

Disconfirmed expectancy!

 

[sack]

Cognitive dissonance!

So i should continue with my buys with a clear conscience?

 

[Devil Doc]

cognitive dissonance: psychological conflict resulting from incongruous beliefs and attitudes held simultaneously. ie. I love Cuban cigars, but I'm supporting a no good murdering SOB when I buy them.

Doc.

 

[AVB]

Faux News ???

 

[seadub]

Cognitive dissonance!

So i should continue with my buys with a clear conscience?

Did someone say, "box split?" :whistling:

 

[moki]

This is bordering on politics, but, honestly, I think the embargo is part of the problem. I don't really doubt Fidel is doing some pretty despicable things, but, I don't think shutting the country off completely is going to solve the problem (or is currently). Open the country up to American investment, and give them some infrastructure to lose and they might change the way they play ball.

I think our change in policy towards trade with China some 10yrs ago is reaping enough benefits there to show that trade with the States (and the niceties that come with it) really get people to moderate. They just passed laws allowing private ownership of automobiles, apartments and land - granted it's limited, but if that's not a start in the right direction, I don't know what is.

While I agree with your sentiments in part, let's not get too presumptuous or self-important. Cuba has the entire world to trade with, except for the USA. The idea that only American trade and/or investment can affect Cuba is a bit, well, conceited.

The state Cuba is in right now is primarily because of Fidel's policies, not because of the embargo.

 

[Newfie]

snip.... The idea that only American trade and/or investment can affect Cuba is a bit, well, conceited.

The state Cuba is in right now is primarily because of Fidel's policies, not because of the embargo.

Not being American, I do have to somewhat agree that ONLY "American Investment" will affect Cuba substantially is correct. Right now, the majority of people in Cuba are living well below what the rest of the world would consider the poverty line. Will that change once the Embargo ends?? Of course it will. American investors are chomping at the bit waiting to throw money at it. Don't forget, that happened already in history, and we all know history repeats itself. It's obvious that the rest of the world isn't ready to throw money at Cuba, or else it would have happened already.

 

[ThankYouForNotSmoking]

This is bordering on politics, but, honestly, I think the embargo is part of the problem. I don't really doubt Fidel is doing some pretty despicable things, but, I don't think shutting the country off completely is going to solve the problem (or is currently). Open the country up to American investment, and give them some infrastructure to lose and they might change the way they play ball.

I think our change in policy towards trade with China some 10yrs ago is reaping enough benefits there to show that trade with the States (and the niceties that come with it) really get people to moderate. They just passed laws allowing private ownership of automobiles, apartments and land - granted it's limited, but if that's not a start in the right direction, I don't know what is.

While I agree with your sentiments in part, let's not get too presumptuous or self-important. Cuba has the entire world to trade with, except for the USA. The idea that only American trade and/or investment can affect Cuba is a bit, well, conceited.

The state Cuba is in right now is primarily because of Fidel's policies, not because of the embargo.

I wouldn't hesitate to say that if the US dropped the embargo tomorrow, within a year we would easily be Cuba's largest trading partner and Cuba's over all well being would be improved. We already provide aid in terms of grain and medicine, no doubt, if the embargo were to drop not only would their be more immediate aid to people in need in Cuba, but, you would see a huge influx of "private aid", ie. Cuban American families remitting large sums of money to their relatives in Cuba as well as to humanitarian aid organizations operating inside of Cuba (to compare, Mexican Americans remit almost 20billion a year home).

I don't think its conceited to say only American trade liberalization can help Cuba, in any way it comes (either through proactive American policy change or Castro kicking the bucket). It's important not to underestimate the trade position Cuba is in, an undeveloped island 90miles south of some of the most over developed and affluent parts of the States. While it will both be good to see Cuba develop, and sad to see it lose its current charm, there are literally miles and miles of beach in Cuba that scream "Billion Dollar Beach resort!! 1,000 steady jobs! Gringo, come to Cuba!". The only tourist market with enough capital and volume to make that happen is the American tourist market, and Cuba's so close to home, development would probably be overnight were both governments to allow it.

I'm not trying to say that a large part of the state of Cuba is because of Castro's policies - the embargo was a reaction to those policies. But after 45 years, it's seems like it might be a good time to do something proactive, the embargo, as they did in Iraq and do in North Korea, only strengthens the leadership of the people with the few resources and allows them to punish the rest. Outright embargos are never a good policy when dealing with an authoritarian state and should never be viewed as a continued policy, at most, they are a temporary punitive measure.

 

[Ben23]

My opinion...Fidel is already dead. Whens the last time anyone has seen or heard from him.

 

[grateful1]

My opinion...Fidel is already dead. Whens the last time anyone has seen or heard from him.

Last week.

 

[Zeebra]

My opinion...Fidel is already dead. Whens the last time anyone has seen or heard from him.

Castro shows signs of life

 

[Mark Twain]

Last night i was watching a program on what Fidel is doing secretly, but the CIA knows very well from information from defectors. The gist of the story is that Cuba has biological labs that are producing anthrax and all sorts of horrible biological weapons for use against primarily the USA. Fidel is openly negotiating with North Korea, China, and AL-QAIDA. I can't smoke a Cuban with a clear conscience while this nutjob is still alive. And to be clear about all this, his brother, who is taking over after fidel dies, is even more anti USA than Fidel. I have to be able to sleep at night!

I was gonna say something about genetically splicing Cobra venom with the Ebola virus in labs mounted on the flatbeds of trucks so they couldn’t be found and then using remote control planes made out of balsa wood as delivery vehicles.

I was gonna say something, but it sounds far fetched to me. ???

 

[sack]

Well, after studying all the information given here on this thread and rethinking my position, a good night's sleep helps, i've decided to keep the status quo for now. If all out war breaks out with Cuba, don't say i did'nt tell you so. :whistling:

 

[opusXmarco]

Well, after studying all the information given here on this thread and rethinking my position, a good night's sleep helps, i've decided to keep the status quo for now. If all out war breaks out with Cuba, don't say i did'nt tell you so. :whistling:

I really doubt that Cuba has an Army big enough to take us on.

Taking note of where you are "From" it's no wonder you're "In the dark".

 

[sack]

Well, after studying all the information given here on this thread and rethinking my position, a good night's sleep helps, i've decided to keep the status quo for now. If all out war breaks out with Cuba, don't say i did'nt tell you so. :whistling:

I really doubt that Cuba has an Army big enough to take us on.

Taking note of where you are "From" it's no wonder you're "In the dark".

Not sure what you mean, but may you have everything you wish for!

 

[moki]

snip.... The idea that only American trade and/or investment can affect Cuba is a bit, well, conceited.

The state Cuba is in right now is primarily because of Fidel's policies, not because of the embargo.

Not being American, I do have to somewhat agree that ONLY "American Investment" will affect Cuba substantially is correct. Right now, the majority of people in Cuba are living well below what the rest of the world would consider the poverty line. Will that change once the Embargo ends?? Of course it will. American investors are chomping at the bit waiting to throw money at it. Don't forget, that happened already in history, and we all know history repeats itself. It's obvious that the rest of the world isn't ready to throw money at Cuba, or else it would have happened already.

So you're claiming Canada has no investors, and is financially impotent? You're claiming that all of Europe has no technology or money that they might want to invest in Cuba?

I realize the USA is the world's largest economy, but c'mon. There's absolutely nothing preventing France, Germany, the UK, Canada, Japan, China, and numerous other technologically modern and relatively wealthy countries from investing in Cuba if they so chose.

They have not chosen to do so because of Castro's policies. I wouldn't expect that to change with the embargo ending. There would have to be a policy change that was not hostile to business and investment.

The importance of the USA in this regard is over-stated, IMHO. Cuba has the rest of the world to trade with, and to seek investment capital, aid, etc, from.

 

[cigar smoke]

snip.... The idea that only American trade and/or investment can affect Cuba is a bit, well, conceited.

The state Cuba is in right now is primarily because of Fidel's policies, not because of the embargo.

Not being American, I do have to somewhat agree that ONLY "American Investment" will affect Cuba substantially is correct. Right now, the majority of people in Cuba are living well below what the rest of the world would consider the poverty line. Will that change once the Embargo ends?? Of course it will. American investors are chomping at the bit waiting to throw money at it. Don't forget, that happened already in history, and we all know history repeats itself. It's obvious that the rest of the world isn't ready to throw money at Cuba, or else it would have happened already.

So you're claiming Canada has no investors, and is financially impotent? You're claiming that all of Europe has no technology or money that they might want to invest in Cuba?

I realize the USA is the world's largest economy, but c'mon. There's absolutely nothing preventing France, Germany, the UK, Canada, Japan, China, and numerous other technologically modern and relatively wealthy countries from investing in Cuba if they so chose.

They have not chosen to do so because of Castro's policies. I wouldn't expect that to change with the embargo ending. There would have to be a policy change that was not hostile to business and investment.

The importance of the USA in this regard is over-stated, IMHO. Cuba has the rest of the world to trade with, and to seek investment capital, aid, etc, from.

Hi Moki

First off thanks for your constructive thoughts the other day it was well recieved.
Now about this subject please consider the affects of the Helms -Burton Act. Supposedly any nation that does business with Cuba could have economic sanctions imposed on them by the US. Canada has fought this from day one. Of course many countries feel that this law violates International laws and practices.There may be other countries out there that just dont want The Big USA on there back. Just a thought to consider in the overall sceme of things

Bob

 

[MiamiCubano]

cognitive dissonance: psychological conflict resulting from incongruous beliefs and attitudes held simultaneously. ie. I love Cuban cigars, but I'm supporting a no good murdering SOB when I buy them.

Doc.

This is the point precisely.

And Moki...spot on.
Cuba is what it is because of Fidel, a murdering, terrorist, tyrant, who bleeds its citizens dry, exploits them, imprisons them and murders them. Bottom line.

And do I feel any resentment over coughing up any funds to Fidel's buddy and brother-in-arms Hugo? You better damn well believe it.

But, I have a choice when it comes to buying (or not buying) Cuban cigars...when it comes to purchasing gasoline, what's the alternative, realistically? Can you go to the Venezuela-free station? It's a bitter damn pill to swallow, but it's not comparable to purchasing Cuban cigars.

 

[ThankYouForNotSmoking]

cognitive dissonance: psychological conflict resulting from incongruous beliefs and attitudes held simultaneously. ie. I love Cuban cigars, but I'm supporting a no good murdering SOB when I buy them.

Doc.

This is the point precisely.

And Moki...spot on.
Cuba is what it is because of Fidel, a murdering, terrorist, tyrant, who bleeds its citizens dry, exploits them, imprisons them and murders them. Bottom line.

And do I feel any resentment over coughing up any funds to Fidel's buddy and brother-in-arms Hugo? You better damn well believe it.

But, I have a choice when it comes to buying (or not buying) Cuban cigars...when it comes to purchasing gasoline, what's the alternative, realistically? Can you go to the Venezuela-free station? It's a bitter damn pill to swallow, but it's not comparable to purchasing Cuban cigars.

Completely agree with you. Castro is no one's good guy. But, I think the embargo, the concept of embargos, don't work on countries were power is consolidated enough that there are no real threats to the dictators power. If Cuba had a few guys in the wings to take over, an embargo would make sense because they'd be able to claim that the embargo is to punish the dictator in power, and if he's gone, the embargo will be gone too. The situation in Cuba just isn't like that, Castro, even sick, is firmly in power - an embargo is only keeping him there by not allowing wealth into anyone else's hands.

I really think the US needs to be more proactive in its policy approach towards Cuba; Castro, even when he dies, will long remain a symbol of how one man can oppose the US in a Latin America that is becoming increasingly anti-American. We don't need another historically sanitized figurehead like Che Guevara for people to rally around (wasn't he just dashing, sympathetic and big hearted in The Motorcycle Diaries, why would the CIA want him dead? America must want all of our leaders dead so they can rule us like an imperial power!). More proactive policy work could serve to undermine that mystique - Castro isn't in power because of his own actions or because he's such a great people's leader, it's because of our lack of action. I think the best way to moderate anti-American views is with good ole American $$, if someone who was previously destitute gets a job and an American owned hotel, their cognitive dissonance is going to come into line - on our side, unless they prefer destitution.

I think everyone's on the same "political" side here - we just differ on what policy is best to affect change.