Some of you may be surprised....

[Phil]

...But I just wanna let you know where those smart asses comments (from who??)...

Phil

Phil,

Since you asked, see: thread.

Juxtapose that against my profile, yahoo photo link, and my intro post reply to Jolly about the thumb vs. the stab in the neck. Pretty funny ****, eh?

Now if you really want to hear something roar try listening to 600+ oil wells "roar" when their heads are blown off.

Cheers,

Mike

All I see in this thread is Neal ribbin on SD a little bit. But that was all in good fun, I can assure you that.

 

[Allofus123]

Don't think this post is about initiations or trading practices...... I should know, I started the thread. I believe the jist of this thread is about openly discussing sources/purchases on a public BB and having your personal information readily available to anyone that can click a mouse button. There has also been quite a few people who reference other people by name in their post without thinking about it.

Addies in profile are fine, possesing and/or discussing cuban cigars is not a crime, purchasing them with American dollars is. Yall feel free to take this in whatever direction you want...... I'm done!

 

[Four Aces]

The Beast:

Hot topic!

No, not offended. But the questions I posted, which you have not answered, are still relevant to the premise of your post.

I am inferring [maybe incorrectly] that you assume that new members here fit into some predefined category [perhaps based on your experience, or not]. I don't quite know what your objective was with that post. But if it as I infer [and not neceessarily what you intended to imply], then I would like to know how what you stated in your post sits with the questions I have posed to you. That's if you are inclined to answer.

And yes, I did send out PAN/PAM '26 & '64. But then we are not supposed to say things like that are we? At least, if I am reading some of the threads here correctly. I mean we wouldn't want anyone to think I was being a snobby rich guy, etc. like SamClemmons wrote in that permanent post, which I kinda agree with btw.

Why would anyone send out crapola on a trade anyways, unless they are a scumbag? How can anyone build any type of business relationship with anyone else if they deliver crapola? Would my customers keep coming back to me if I did ****ty engineering work for them? Of course not. It's a one transaction proposition for me if someone is a ****ty trader. That's what a business risk is.

Same thing with a newbie trader, he's either going to be a scumbag or not. It does not take any education or "mentoring" on a cigar e-board to take someone away from scumbag-hood. We are like we are, and I am what I am. So if a trader is a dickhead, he will be one, and remain one. So again, I just question your premise with that post concering this openness with new members.

We must have a different business perspective. You see based on your profile, you have told me nothing about yourself. In fact it is a smart-aleck profile. That's the introduction you have given me of yourself, so I probably would not trade with you. On the other hand, I want people who do business with me to know about me. I won't put personal contact data out there [for reasons stated earlier], but if my profile starts a dialog with a trade prospect via PM, and the comfort factor is there, then we do business. If they don't like my profile [some evidently don't], or say that I am delivering hors d'ouvres to President Reagan, well then we don't do business. But at least they know something about me before they invest their time and money. I sense, by the type of profile you posted, you would rather others find out about you via circulation of your fine reputation. But a new member has no way of knowing that, and quite frankly I don't judge by the reputation, but what I sense from my own dealings with a prospective trader/businessman/customer, etc. Reputation scoping is for the girls who wanted to be popular in high school. IMHO. Enron had a fine reputation, and I refused to do any consulting with them back in their hey-days, because one could tell based on meeting them that they were scumbags. ExxonMobil, on the other hand, which has a ****ty reputation, probably has the best contractor ethical guidelines, that are enforced, that I have ever seen. So, that's just me.

I guess we'll close for now.

Cheers,

4A

 

[Ellman]

If you don't feel comfortable trading, buying or discusing buying Cuban cigars on the forum then dont. what is it hurting if other do? I guess i dont understand. I think is was a good thing to bring up to show somebody who did not think of it how easy it was to track, but the crying and finger pointing doesn't seem like its helps in anyway.

 

[Lee]

Who are you anyway?? :sign:

 

[lucasbuck]

There has also been quite a few people who reference other people by name in their post without thinking about it.

I'm guilty of this as I find it a bit more personal. I don't see anything wrong with using real first names. Hell some of the people here use them as their handle! Should I quit using members real first names in my posts? ???

 

[ivan37]

Why does something go underground? Because people think there is a good chance of having to face consequences. Why do newbies talk openly about sources adn purchasing isoms now? Because they aren't reminded that there could be consequences. Since I've been on this board (not really that long, but that's kinda the point) I haven't read a single post of someone personally having a shipment confiscated let alone any other action taken against them. Even the "I knew someone..." and "I've read..." stories are few and far between while also being shrouded in speculation and mystery.

All it would take for people to really start thinking about what they are posting again would be for the government to just crack down hard. All they'd have to do is get a list of international dealers' addresses and get a dozen agents to pull out all the mail from those addresses at a few customs points. If they did that and then issued massive press releases complete with video and photos of agents standing in front of a pile of confiscated cigars every once and a while everyone would once again reconsider what they said publicly. This doesn't happen, though, so newbies who don't hear stuff like this don't think twice about what they say.

The same kind of idea above applies to the decreasing newbie to trusted member time. When was the last time a pass got stolen by a member who just disappeared? There hasn't even been a trade that's gone badly lately, has there? It's going to take something like that (unfortunately) for people to put restrictions on who can join their passes/GBs/etc again.

Disclaimer: This isn't a justification for the increased talk of isom, just my take on why I think other newbies can see the talk as harmless. Add to this the conflict between FOGs who had to go through a lot to get the connections they needed and newbies who don't see the big deal nowadays because you don't need connections anymore and the whole issue gets mixed up.

 

[Four Aces]

Four Aces, chill out a grow some thick skin!

I mean, WTF to come off like that with your hundred and some post count? I think you need to get a clue because Jeff, Matt and Kenny are right on with this post!

If it applies, so be it! If it doesn't , let it fly!

Jeff is right though, you used to have to earn **** around here and now it's like a circus. I can ignore most of the BS but don't come in here talking stuff newbie unless you're prepared to get it back!

I see this BS everywhere!! In the workplace, on boards, etc. This sense of entitlement like folks expect to have it all now!

Well folks, I got news for ya! I don't care how many trades you've done, bombs you've sent or whatever, that doesn't get squat with me! Earn it like I did!

Rant over!

Lee

Lee,

No "skin" problem here. No "chill" either, 'cuz I am not hyped about anything. I'm trying to figure out what this all about, and The Beast' posts.

I'm sure they are right about whatever they are talking about with this history thing. But I just don't understand how this effects any trading rules, said or unsaid. To me it's quite simple, maybe too simple. If two parties want to trade, then they trade. If someone is scummy in the trade, then it's probably a one time deal with the parties involved. I would think the same holds true with the box passes, and I have already stated that I think it is commendable when a bad trader is exposed, which I saw done here just a while back. That's what I call a self-regulating market, a good thing. And I said before I am glad CP does that.

However, what's with all the dressing? That's what I don't understand. Does the post count matter in terms of how a business transaction is conducted between two parties, or those involved in a box pass? Okay, so you say we "used to have to earn **** around here". What does that mean? If an honest trade is done isn't that what the business is about? What is it that we do here that classifies as "earning ****"? What is involved in the "earning", and what is the "****" that we earn?

What "entitlements" are you referring to, that folks are requesting here? You said, "earn it like I did". What is "it"? Is the entitlement you are referring to simply the right to transact a trade with others? I guess maybe I have been in business by myslef too long, 'cuz to land a customer or conduct business I just usually call on the phone and pay an introductory visit. Then if the customer has a need, we do a business transaction. So what am I mising here?

I guess I am really confused now. My supposition is that we come here to trade. So I have done a trade, that has been a good business transaction. There must be something more that you folks are talking about which is why I don't understand The Beast' post, nor your response.

4A

 

[Allofus123]

I know I said I was done with this thread, and you can usually take what I say as gospel, but, I have to say that Ivan "gets it". Very well stated!

And for the last time...... this post has nothing to do with trades. ???

OK, carry on....... I'm not really lurking!

 

[Lumberg]

Also is there anyway to get a protected forum? I am a member of another website which uses the same forum as this one which only admins and moderators (to which I am a mod) have acess to a perticular forum on the website. So I do know that is possible. maybe we could limit all talk of that nature (when even acceptible) to that forum (if we can get it) as well. And then put a limit to whom can go into that forum by the length of time spent as a member.

I have seen on a message board for a chat board system called vBulletin where you can specify which parts are allowed to be traversed by spiders/bots and which can't. I think there is something called a bots file.

Spiders are programs that walk the net and search engines use these to generate their search results.

Another tactic boards use is that you cannot view threads unless you are logged in as a member. I know in vBulletin it is easy to set access levels for different forums. In this case it would be as easy as saying for this particular forum, you must be logged in as a member (cookied) to view it. That way no web crawler could archive the pages in that forum. I would be very surprised if Powerboard did not have a similar feature.

Now this would prevent topics in that forum from showing up on search engines. It would not prevent a human from infiltrating.

Also note spiders are also a popular way to cull email addresses to sell to spammers, which is why you should NEVER post your email address to a board. If you must, post in in a form like joncrane_AT_yahoo.com. Humans understand what this means but a bot is only looking for something that looks like user@domain.extension.

This is why I don't like CF. The member email address is clearly viewable in the profile page.

 

[Four Aces]

...the jist of this thread is about openly discussing sources/purchases on a public BB and having your personal information readily available to anyone that can click a mouse button...

Allofus123:

Oh I agree! That is the genesis of one of my questions. I had initially put in my profile not to discuss ISOM transactions with me via open electronic media. I was told in so many words I was being cowardly by established members here. One even thought I was an ATF lurker. :lookup: Good grief!

And no, I wasn't "offended", but I am just wondering now in light of what I have been reading in this thread, and now not just about sources either, but what "it" is we do here in order to "earn" whatever "it" is. I have never discussed a web source. And quite frankly didn't understand the reaction to not discussing ISOM transactions as requested in my profile. Does anyone follow me? I'm about to give up on the topic, since my diction seems to be pissing y'all off. Sorry.

 

[TheBeast]

But the questions I posted, which you have not answered, are still relevant to the premise of your post.

I have answered ONLY the questions that had any sense of relevance. You've read far more into this than needed.

The "Trading" comment was just that...a comment. There was little revelance to whether the smokes were "mid-line ****" as I stated, dog-rockets, or fine aged havanas. I making the simple point that it doesn't take much to build a reputation like you've been here for years. That's it.


Now you write and question me far more than I'm willing to deal with today. So I will try and sum up the original intent of my first post in as few of words as possible(and stay as politically correct as possible) so you don't quote every other sentence followed by a question.


This board would have never came up on Allofus123's search months ago. This board once had somewhat of a friendly yet understood protocol, which allowed members to learn the ropes(whether they needed to or not) and post, trade, and pass in a manner that would be somewhat descreet. That protocol no longer exists and this board IS NOT better off because of it.


As for my profile...I change my profile all the time...I'm not trying to make friends off my profile, entice comfort in a trade, or give insite to my business perspective. It's a profile on an internet cigar board!!! This isn't MatchMaker. I've been posting here for nearly 2 years...I don't need a profile at all...and if I choose to put some sarcasim in it from time to time...it'll probably only drive off the people I wouldn't want to deal with anyway. I really have no need to look at a simple hobby as a business...I'm not here to profit.

 

[Lee]

Well FA, your post to Jeff seemed like an attack to me. If it wasn't, that's fine.

Also, what I mean by "earning it" is that you come here, get to know folks, ask questions, etc. That's how trust is built. My comment on this refers to something that annoys me (not that that is a big deal) but it does and it's my opinion entirely. I don't like the change in this board, period. I liked it the way it was, when new folks did what I wrote above. This stuff in some profiles is annoying to me as well, but I choose not to read it anymore. If that's the trend, so be it.

Anyway, this board has nothing to do with business in my opinion, it's about BOTL, getting to know each other, meeting for herfs, sharing cigars and many other things. It's not about anything else for me. Also, it's the internet and things are different because of anonymity.

That's my rant, some things said above got me fired up and I said what I said.

Some still don't get it though....

 

[Four Aces]

Why does something go underground? ...connections anymore and the whole issue gets mixed up.

Okay, this I understand, I mean the mixed up part.

When I came here I had requested that ISOM issues not be discussed with me in open electronic media. I was told [either joked with, or strongly hinted at] that this was childish and overly cautious. Now in this thread, we are advising caution. Good, so my initial policy which I didn't stray from, was correct.

I'm still not sure what the "earn" and the "it" are, but I have done a pleasant trade with a decent member here, and have hung a sign here that says "open for bizness". You wanna do bizness, we do bizness, you don't, then that's okay too, because that's what a free market is all about, and anything else is just nonsense. This is just for fun for me anyways, like pen-pals, it's not a need.

Cheers.

4A

 

[Lee]

What's up with being anon??? :lookup:

 

[SamGuss]

This site has gone downhill. It's still the best IMO, but it has gone downhill in the last few months.

Lots of BS has happened.

So is it the fault of people who have been here a year? 2 years? 4 years?

Or is it the fault of those coming in recently and not abiding by the etiquette the FOG's have formulated? (generically, stereotypical - not individually)

This post piss you off? Then I am probably talking about you.

As an anaology - I might have a driver's liscence but it doesn't mean I am capable of racing alongside Petty at Talledage or Bristol. Call me old fashioned - I came in at a time you had to EARN the right to trade. EARN the right to get a source. None of this hand-me-everything BS. Everything else in life is earned - so is being entitled to trade, get a source, be included, etc. here or anywhere else on an internet BB.

Sam

 

[TheBeast]

I had initially put in my profile not to discuss ISOM transactions with me via open electronic media. I was told in so many words I was being cowardly by established members here. One even thought I was an ATF lurker. :lookup: Good grief!

Bingo!!! Who've witnessed the problem first hand even. People that YOU considered "established" members gave you reason to believe that it was ridiculous to think that way. So when you get several pseudo "established" members spreading their belief systems to newbies everyday...Wow!!! we have a problem. :lookup:

 

[Four Aces]

Leebo & The Beast:

Let me clear up I was not attacking The Beast in my post. There was no attack in there. To me an attack is when I personally call someone a name, derogatory insult, etc. [I have done that, but not here, and that is wasted in the virtual world anyways], challenge to a fight, etc. Discussion of concepts however, I would think, is what you are looking for here. Persuasive arts, dialog, debate, etc. No attacks were in my posts. Apologies if you think otherewise.

I understand your history now. Lee I thought this board was yours. I mean that you are the proprietor/owner [or is it Rod]. If that is true, can't you make it like you want?

The Beast, we are just different when it comes to the profile outlook. My MAIN real-world business is my hobby. That's why I do it, and I love it - the oil business especially, as an engineer. When I get thru with a client, he has either made more money at the wellhead, or he has not. It's 1 or a 0, a yes or a no, gain or a loss. I can't run away from the results like a McKinsey type consultant who drops off a blue book and doesn't have to be held responsible for the outcome. This makes me really straight forward in discussions. This also taints my outlook with anything like a cigar trade...a poor trade, and there is no more business. A good trade, we continue business. The other stuff is just not necessary to me. All I require is a brief background and then if I like what I see, business can be done. The friendship type stuff can follow later.

There is something to be said for the "good 'ol boy" approach also, which I believe is your approach. I see that a lot here in the Texas oil bizness. However, it is not a requirement for me. I take an occasional client to lunch and that's it. They are interested in the product, just like folks here are interested in the cigar "product".

Peace,

4A

 

[Four Aces]

..Who've witnessed the problem first hand even. People that YOU considered "established" members gave you reason to believe that it was ridiculous to think that way...

Got it. Thanks for the validation. Good to know common sense was here all along. Thanks.

4A

 

[TheBeast]

I didn't take any of your questions as an attack 4A's. Just simply a misunderstanding of perspective from one man thinking outside the box and one thinking inside the box.