What percent are fakes?
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Matt R
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4A.... you may not have ever had a fake, but I seem to recall you spend time in Costa Rica, which is one of the top 5 or 6 counterfeit Havana cigar producing nations. Not saying you were taken, just a higher chance when you are in those countries.
Matt R
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I don't have any exact numbers that anyone has compiled, but that is what I recall. The major places that are thought to produce high numbers of counterfeit Havana cigars are, and doing this by memory of some discussions years ago, no particular order, though I'd guess the US, Mexico and Cuba to be the biggest offenders:
Cuba
Mexico
Eastern Europe (Russia)
Jamaica
Costa Rica
United States
Cuba
Mexico
Eastern Europe (Russia)
Jamaica
Costa Rica
United States
Lee
Well-Known Member
What's fun is telling someone they bought fakes! They get soooo mad!
LMAO :sign:
LMAO :sign:
MattR,Matt R said:
You are absolutely correct. Not only are there fakes, but there are even companies that say they are importing in the leaf from Cuba, rolling it there in Costa Rica, and then selling them as "almost Cuban". A lot of these operations are run by Americans and Canadians [CR is a haven for these types]. My uncle grows coffee and macadamia nuts in the Turrialba area [the family has been there forever], and has advised me that most of the "almost Cubans" and "Cubans" sold in CR are fake. LCDH is the only reliable source. And I believe a lot of the internet stuff is fake also. Just my opinion about the internet, but then I have not had the need to make an internet purchase. Nice to see the survey confirms my instinct.
There is an LCDH in Costa Rica. It is in San Jose, the capital, in an area known as San Pedro. I'm usually down there twice a year, but since my dad died, I have only been down there twice in the last two years.
The other LCDHs I have purchased at are in KL and Jakarta. Both of these locations are in Mandarin Oriental hotels. In Jakarta there is another shop in the Jakarta Hilton. It is not an LCDH, but the stuff appears authentic to me [but what do I know?]. The Jakarta Hilton is not really a "Hilton" anymore. It is owned by the Suharto family now, and I think they have a special concession with the LCDH folks over at the Mandarin Oriental. The Suhartos pretty much get whatever they want in Indonesia.
The gigs over in Asia are nice, but I prefer KL over Jakarta. In two weeks on location I can pretty much sample a different stick a day, and then decide what to purchase on my "shopping day" before coming home.
I have a Nigeria gig coming up this summer and will stop at an LCDH in Europe both before and after visiting Lagos. Do you know of any cigar bars in Lagos?
4A
moki
el Presidente
Agreed, KL is a great city -- let me know the next time you go there, I have friends in M'sia, as well as in KL specifically who would be glad to meet up with you for a smoke!Four Aces said:The gigs over in Asia are nice, but I prefer KL over Jakarta. In two weeks on location I can pretty much sample a different stick a day, and then decide what to purchase on my "shopping day" before coming home.
Selemat Tingal!
AVB
Jesus of Cool, I'm bad, I'm nationwide
I haven't seen any evidence of Russia producing fakes. Maybe they ship them all out because it is hard to find any cigars that claim to be Cuban to begin with. The ones I did see were just as expensive as buying them in London. I haven't been everywhere obviously but you'd think after a few trips I'd have noticed some.
Matt R
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AVB... if you've been to Moscow, you've seen fakes. I was in a tobacco store that had stacks of glass-top Cohiba Esplendidos, bought a box of Bolivar Belicoso Finos that were the same size as Monte #2s and also bought a 5 pack of Siglo Vs that were Cuban leaf, but not Cohibas. I did not get to the Davidoff shop, but my host said that they sold the Cohibas with a clear top there too. The prices were not as high as the UK, but this was in 2000, the week Putin was elected. Things ahve changed a lot since then, from what I've been told by aquaintances who have traveled there recently.
Cool! A KL connection. Just as I was about to give up on hanging around these boards.moki said:Agreed, KL is a great city -- let me know the next time you go there, I have friends in M'sia, as well as in KL specifically who would be glad to meet up with you for a smoke!
[slight thread jack]
I really like KL, and Malaysia as a whole. Some of the gigs I do are on Borneo [Miri, Sarawak], which is also nice, but there is no LCDH there, so if I do a Miri gig I stop over in KL for a day or two and pick up some smokes and then cross the water. Miri has got to have the freshest seafood in the world. And the meals are great, for only pennies!
Last gig I did in SE Asia I coupled with some vacation and took my wife. We visited Penang, which was really cool, and she went off to Angkor Wat while I worked in Miri. Next gig I will tag on a couple of days so we can do Malacca. From what I have been told, Malacca is a very unique city with a very unique history.
Sampai jumpa lagi!
4A
vewyphishy
The Original Smoking Fish
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If so many are fake, then how can you be sure that certain "sources" deemed reliable are in fact... legit? I've always had some concern for places that reband their cigars. Why do they have to do that when other sources have no problems shipping original sealed boxes? I guess the latter question is a little OT (not that this thread hasn't been jacked already).
To some extent, the % of fakes still amuses me. You'd figure that with SO many fakes flooding the market that eventually... the market would collapse on itself. But it hasn't. Demand seems to be as high as ever, even if the demand is satisfied with fakes OR legits. Strange how this works.
To some extent, the % of fakes still amuses me. You'd figure that with SO many fakes flooding the market that eventually... the market would collapse on itself. But it hasn't. Demand seems to be as high as ever, even if the demand is satisfied with fakes OR legits. Strange how this works.
Well I guess that's what the FOGs are supposed to tell us once we are deemed as "socially acceptable joiners/subordinates", etc. I'm not expecting that anytime in this lifetime.vewyphishy said:
Or if one has smoked enough of the real thing, then one should know, but I'm not sure I'm smart enough in that regard. Hell I can't even tell the difference between an "earthy" taste and a "coffee" taste. Especially since coffee has always tasted earthy to me.
I just know what I like and don't like with regards to taste.I even hear some sources pull the old switcheroo on you, i.e., sell you real ones, and then substitute fakes, once you become a regular client. I don't really know 'cuz I am not really sophisticated in these cigar internet purchasing matters.
I just get what I can at an LCDH when I am out of the country, and maintain a mixture of Cuban and non-Cuban cigars as best I can. Works for me.
4A
P.S. I didn't vote in the survey.
Matt R
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In general there is a distinct taste difference between tobacco from Cuba, Honduras, the DR, etc. etc. That is how you can tell the difference in most cases, if you have experienced enough of the different countries tobacco. Now, for counterfeits made with Havana leaf, the difference is not always in the taste, as much as the cigars construction and what part of the plant the leaf comes from. Often times a counterfeit from Cuba will include clippings, stems or even non-tobacco plant or material.
Then there is the blend difference, which is harder to discern if you are not experienced with the different brands. This is not only the case for Cuban cigars, but also the fake Padrons, Opus, etc.
I don't think you have to be bale to taste all the different nuiances of each individual country's leaf to recognize that there is a difference in taste. That is why you know what you like and what you don't like. If you couldn't taste the difference, then it wouldn't matter what cigar you were smoking. They would all taste the same. Now, you may not associate the taste with a certain country's leaf, but that is because you haven't conditioned yourself to do so.
Now onto the source issues raised. How do we know certain sources are selling legit cigars?? Well, to be honest, you don't unless you do your research. This is based on opinions of others, research into the vendor's actual business and meeting the vendor or visiting the operations. That's why we tell people not to jump right into something both feet first. There are vendors out there that seem legit and then they slip some counterfeits into shipments down the line. It happens and that's why you will see these people called out. It may not happen on all the boards, but it does happen. Most of the "FOG's" do not mind giving out opinions of different vendors, but we would prefer it is done in the appropriate manner, privately. It has nothing to do with our being superior beings. It's a respect issue with the vendors. Some of the people we deal with do not advertise their business. All one has to do is ask. I personally have a rule that I will not refer a person if I have not met them in person. That is just a rule I made for myself as it used to be the only way to get "in".
As for the re-banding over shipping intact.. well, that is a vendors choice based on what they have seen happen in their shipping. You will notice that those who ship intact, in general, do not guarantee shipment.
Then there is the blend difference, which is harder to discern if you are not experienced with the different brands. This is not only the case for Cuban cigars, but also the fake Padrons, Opus, etc.
I don't think you have to be bale to taste all the different nuiances of each individual country's leaf to recognize that there is a difference in taste. That is why you know what you like and what you don't like. If you couldn't taste the difference, then it wouldn't matter what cigar you were smoking. They would all taste the same. Now, you may not associate the taste with a certain country's leaf, but that is because you haven't conditioned yourself to do so.
Now onto the source issues raised. How do we know certain sources are selling legit cigars?? Well, to be honest, you don't unless you do your research. This is based on opinions of others, research into the vendor's actual business and meeting the vendor or visiting the operations. That's why we tell people not to jump right into something both feet first. There are vendors out there that seem legit and then they slip some counterfeits into shipments down the line. It happens and that's why you will see these people called out. It may not happen on all the boards, but it does happen. Most of the "FOG's" do not mind giving out opinions of different vendors, but we would prefer it is done in the appropriate manner, privately. It has nothing to do with our being superior beings. It's a respect issue with the vendors. Some of the people we deal with do not advertise their business. All one has to do is ask. I personally have a rule that I will not refer a person if I have not met them in person. That is just a rule I made for myself as it used to be the only way to get "in".
As for the re-banding over shipping intact.. well, that is a vendors choice based on what they have seen happen in their shipping. You will notice that those who ship intact, in general, do not guarantee shipment.
Good post MattR.Matt R said:
The parse above is probably where I am at sort of...because "I have not conditioned myself to do so", as you stated.
I tend to mix up the variety when I'm abroad. Now if I could bring home about 10 boxes of each sample on each trip, then I might get to the condition that you are describing. I do think, in my experience, there are some that are distinguishable by the brand's or line's "taste", but not by country as far as I can discern. For example to me a Boli is a Boli, and PAM '64 a PAM '64, and an Onyx Reserve an Onyx Reserve. But in smoking these, I could not tell whether they were Cuban or not without apriori knowledge of the cigars themselves. In other words, if I were blinded for two cigars that I had never smoked before, I could tell you which I like and don't like, but I could not tell you which was Cuban and which was not.
BTW, I have pretty bad hay fever allergies, and I am told that this affects taste to a certain degree.
4A
P.S. Just ribbing on the FOG stuff. I'm trying to be consistent in my asshole-dom.
Matt R
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I think if you took the following four cigars, all in a similar size, and smoked them with the knowledge of where they were from, you'd get a good picture of where I'm coming from on the different country's tobacco flavors. These are all puros and not blends of different country's leaf.
Padron Anniversary (Nicaraguan)
Opus X (Dominican Republic)
Montecristo (Cuba)
Punch Gran Puro (Honduran)
Aside from Cuban cigars, there are very few puros being made. 99.9% of the non-Havana cigars out there have blends of various country's tobacco and wrapper leaf. So, using a blended cigar as a taste tester would be somewhat misleading as to the flavors. Though, some wrappers impart a distinct flavor on teh cigar when combined with teh filler and binder. Cameroon wrappers come to mind as having a very distinct flavor.
Padron Anniversary (Nicaraguan)
Opus X (Dominican Republic)
Montecristo (Cuba)
Punch Gran Puro (Honduran)
Aside from Cuban cigars, there are very few puros being made. 99.9% of the non-Havana cigars out there have blends of various country's tobacco and wrapper leaf. So, using a blended cigar as a taste tester would be somewhat misleading as to the flavors. Though, some wrappers impart a distinct flavor on teh cigar when combined with teh filler and binder. Cameroon wrappers come to mind as having a very distinct flavor.
That sounds like a good experiment. I will definitely try that.
On the Padron Annis some are actually being made in Honduras from what I am reading on the box, though the company is Nicarguan. So I suspect you're specifying an "hecho en Nicargua" PAM '64 [?]
4A
On the Padron Annis some are actually being made in Honduras from what I am reading on the box, though the company is Nicarguan. So I suspect you're specifying an "hecho en Nicargua" PAM '64 [?]
4A
lucasbuck
Sheriff Buck
He's suggesting Puros. PAM's are all Nicaraguan tobacco regardless of where they're rolled.
Source, box/label, bands, size, and ultimately taste determines fake vs. legit. And it all comes from experience. I recognize the distinct taste profile and the subtilties(sp?) of the brands. But that took some time.
I think the results of the poll determine that a very high percentage of fakes are out there.
Like Matt suggests, I've asked opinions when I wasn't sure about correct sizes and bands, when I've compared two like-cigars side-by-side. The fakes I've had, I've learned from. Hell, it's just a cigar.
I continue to learn a lot from the posts and threads, and meeting and smoking with the people who post, and hopefully pass along something that'll help a newbie.
I think the results of the poll determine that a very high percentage of fakes are out there.
Like Matt suggests, I've asked opinions when I wasn't sure about correct sizes and bands, when I've compared two like-cigars side-by-side. The fakes I've had, I've learned from. Hell, it's just a cigar.
I continue to learn a lot from the posts and threads, and meeting and smoking with the people who post, and hopefully pass along something that'll help a newbie.