You don't say?

[ThankYouForNotSmoking]

If Cuban Americans wanted a free Cuba and not some sort of repayment for their parent's confiscated property, they'd want the embargo out, but they don't want a free Cuba, they want their parent's property and money back (and the whole grudge thing against Castro).

I'm not about to get into the whole politics and history of this issue. But, suffice it to say, this is hardly the case, and I would caution you against making such a hugely broad statement like that, and somehow thinking you're aware of what exiles and Cuban citizens desire. Unless you are somehow stating your own situation and what you desire from Castro and want for Cuba.

"Whole grudge thing"???...yeah, you could call it a "grudge," though that only scratches the surface. In so much as one would harbor a "grudge" against a tyrant, terrorist, murderer and one who imprisoned anyone who cast a sideways glance at him that was not "favorable."

Can't help but wonder if your post/viewpoint is anyway colored by your choice of quotes...Billy Bragg? Care to enlighten the others as to his, long-time political disposition? I'll be glad to... =)

Uh, right on. Look at the history of embargos - they don't work to create "freedom" or anything else, they do have a history, however, of letting a situation just fester and give governments a save face excuse ('we, uh, embargo'd them, that'll do it!'). The way to a capitalist, Castro-less Cuba is not through embargo, but through investment. Ideology comes with money - there is a huge positive correlation between per capita income and a stable democracy. Anyone who wanted to 'free' Cuba would clearly want to enhance the wealth of Cubans themselves through FDI, not an embargo. And let's face it, while the rest of the world does do business with Cuba, their business relations with lots of countries (ie Mexico) remains strained because of the embargo and the US does actively discourage countries and companies (ie Microsoft, Google, GM, McDonald's, etc) from dealing with Cuba. The embargo itself does a great deal of harm to Cuba - not only economically, but also ideologically - American ideas and virtues (ie capitalism) come hand in hand with those companies and their money. The only thing the embargo does is prevent change while allowing US politicians to save face with a powerful voting bloc in a state which is often the deciding factor in Presidential elections (and both parties are equally guilty in that regard).

If you had mistake my argument as arguing for Castro or for a Communist Cuba, you misread. I think a Castro-less Cuba would be a much better one, however, I think the current policy towards Cuba is tired and old and, most importantly, anti-productive. If you want to see Castro prosecuted a la Milosevic, as he should, he would have to be out of power, and the best way to do that is to open relations by ending the embargo. Seeing as Castro's life seems to be coming to a close, there is a huge increase in urgency to prosecute him so that victims and their family are allowed some measure of closure (compare again to Milosevic, the fact that he died in prison really upset a number of Bosnian and Croat families and politicians because he can never be "officially" guilty of genocide).

I'm not trying to be uppity or create more strife; I'm not arguing against you, as you did in your post, but against the idea you're arguing for. Trying to paint me as a communist sympathizer because I think Billy Bragg makes socially relevant music is really more of a personal jab than anything else.

 

[tigger]

The destitution which exists in Cuba is not a product of any US embargo...it is directly attributable to the greed and controlling hand of Fidel.

I'm curious. Do you really believe that not having access to the world's largest economy, 90 miles from their doorstep, has nothing to do with the low standard of living of many of the Cuban people?

Of course a totalitarian regime is the major factor in the difficulties folks in Cuba have. But I don't know of a single authoritarian regime that has fallen because of an embargo.

And all that aside, as long as I'm not spending my money to abridge somebody else's rights, the US government has no business telling me how I can and can't dispose of the fruits of my labor.

 

[MiamiCubano]

If Cuban Americans wanted a free Cuba and not some sort of repayment for their parent's confiscated property, they'd want the embargo out, but they don't want a free Cuba, they want their parent's property and money back (and the whole grudge thing against Castro).

I'm not about to get into the whole politics and history of this issue. But, suffice it to say, this is hardly the case, and I would caution you against making such a hugely broad statement like that, and somehow thinking you're aware of what exiles and Cuban citizens desire. Unless you are somehow stating your own situation and what you desire from Castro and want for Cuba.

"Whole grudge thing"???...yeah, you could call it a "grudge," though that only scratches the surface. In so much as one would harbor a "grudge" against a tyrant, terrorist, murderer and one who imprisoned anyone who cast a sideways glance at him that was not "favorable."

Can't help but wonder if your post/viewpoint is anyway colored by your choice of quotes...Billy Bragg? Care to enlighten the others as to his, long-time political disposition? I'll be glad to... =)

Uh, right on. Look at the history of embargos - they don't work to create "freedom" or anything else, they do have a history, however, of letting a situation just fester and give governments a save face excuse ('we, uh, embargo'd them, that'll do it!'). The way to a capitalist, Castro-less Cuba is not through embargo, but through investment. Ideology comes with money - there is a huge positive correlation between per capita income and a stable democracy. Anyone who wanted to 'free' Cuba would clearly want to enhance the wealth of Cubans themselves through FDI, not an embargo. And let's face it, while the rest of the world does do business with Cuba, their business relations with lots of countries (ie Mexico) remains strained because of the embargo and the US does actively discourage countries and companies (ie Microsoft, Google, GM, McDonald's, etc) from dealing with Cuba. The embargo itself does a great deal of harm to Cuba - not only economically, but also ideologically - American ideas and virtues (ie capitalism) come hand in hand with those companies and their money. The only thing the embargo does is prevent change while allowing US politicians to save face with a powerful voting bloc in a state which is often the deciding factor in Presidential elections (and both parties are equally guilty in that regard).

If you had mistake my argument as arguing for Castro or for a Communist Cuba, you misread. I think a Castro-less Cuba would be a much better one, however, I think the current policy towards Cuba is tired and old and, most importantly, anti-productive. If you want to see Castro prosecuted a la Milosevic, as he should, he would have to be out of power, and the best way to do that is to open relations by ending the embargo. Seeing as Castro's life seems to be coming to a close, there is a huge increase in urgency to prosecute him so that victims and their family are allowed some measure of closure (compare again to Milosevic, the fact that he died in prison really upset a number of Bosnian and Croat families and politicians because he can never be "officially" guilty of genocide).

I'm not trying to be uppity or create more strife; I'm not arguing against you, as you did in your post, but against the idea you're arguing for. Trying to paint me as a communist sympathizer because I think Billy Bragg makes socially relevant music is really more of a personal jab than anything else.

"Personal jab?" You have the quote my friend, and with it are many implications, both for its "message" and by the person who said it. Can't expect to post it publicly and not get comments on it. Or maybe you do. Whatever, it's truly not that important to me.

And, as stated previously, I'm not going to get into a discussion of politics here. I've been in this forum for quite some time now and very rarely interject into such diatribes. But simply know that I come to this issue with a very unique insight and vastly more personal experience than probably anyone you know. My family tree has direct lineage to Jose Marti, so the notion of Cuba Libre, and everything it entails, is very personal and meaningful to me and my family (as it is to almost all exiles and those living under the regime that I know). This isn't, nor never was, a post about how to rid Cuba of the terrorist that is Fidel and bolster their economy. That's been argued to death. You're the one who felt it appropriate to decleare what Cubans want and desire. Just like your quote, don't expect comment on such a statement. Re-read your post, and my response if necessary. Never once did I label you a Castro-supporter. Rather, only that you avoid making such broad assertions as to what you think Cubans want. If you consider that "arguing against you," then I'm afraid you are mistaken or take it way too personally when someone responds to your blanket assertions. In either case, it was never an "argument against you" as your last post somehow indicates that I made.

Anything further, feel free to PM me. I'm done discussing it here.

 

[SeanGAR]

Oh hell .. I was in Venezuela last year and had what was undoubtedly Cuban sugar in my coffee. Where do I turn myself in?

 

[moki]

As long as Cuba has a market in almost the rest of the world, they will continue to thumb their nose at Washington.

This is exactly what most people miss...the fact that they think the US has such an impact on the present situation in Cuba, while Cuba ACTIVELY trades with virtually every other economy/nation in the world. The destitution which exists in Cuba is not a product of any US embargo...it is directly attributable to the greed and controlling hand of Fidel.

Agreed... with everything you have stated, MiamiCubano. Well said.